Taj79 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 For those who have been around a while and remember my running battles with ol' Vtime over offering a scholly to every kid in the greater STL public/catholic high leagues, I alway sargued STL talent was weak. But I don't reall yknow. Today, the Sun, besides doing the Dez Wells story, release its curren tlist of Baltimore kids playing Division I basketball. the totla was 82. This includes players at Dayton, Srt. Joe's, GeeDub, Umass, Richmond and Xavier in our A10, but also bigge rnames like CJ Fair at Syracuse, Eric Atkins at Notre Dame and Antonio Barton at Memphis. So, in going back to that long-ago argument this question ... does anybody know or does the Post do such a list for St. Louis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 -i guess all 82 can dunk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 V Time should move to Baltimore. He'd be a busy guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NH Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 V Time should move to Baltimore. He'd be a busy guy.He's pretty busy as it is between coaching and other work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 He's pretty as it is between coaching and other work. What does V-Time's personal appearance have to do with any of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I would say that in the STL metro area including St. Charles & Metro East there are fewer than 20 D-1 players currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Please understand, I am not trying to stir things up with anyone -- Vtime, STLHoopsInisder, or the regulars I tend to infuriate. I just would love to know what the comaprisons are. Probably can't be done. But it might reaffirm or condemn my belief that STL is NOT fertile basketball grounds. There woudl have to be a statistical quantifier --- overall metro population for example --- that the Wiz could afctor in. It woul dnot be fair, I think, to compare STL to LA, or Chicago or NYC for example. But it migh tbe fair in term sof comaprisons to Memphis, Baltimore, Charlotte and so on. The Baltimore alumni list is pretty impressive too, as far as NBA careers go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Please understand, I am not trying to stir things up with anyone -- Vtime, STLHoopsInisder, or the regulars I tend to infuriate. I just would love to know what the comaprisons are. Probably can't be done. But it might reaffirm or condemn my belief that STL is NOT fertile basketball grounds. There woudl have to be a statistical quantifier --- overall metro population for example --- that the Wiz could afctor in. It woul dnot be fair, I think, to compare STL to LA, or Chicago or NYC for example. But it migh tbe fair in term sof comaprisons to Memphis, Baltimore, Charlotte and so on. The Baltimore alumni list is pretty impressive too, as far as NBA careers go. My question is did the Sun only list kids from the Baltimore metro area, or did they list those from the Baltimore-DC-Northern VA metro area? Because those are two different animals. The Baltimore metro area and the St. Louis metro area have basically the same population, at just a shade under 3 million, and that comparison is completely fair. However, the Baltimore-DC metro population balloons to around 9 million, which would be 3 times the size of the St. Louis metro area. I guess I would like to see who they considered 'Baltimore kids' in their assessment. Do you have a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 +1 20 D1 players seems like a good figure to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 @jbizz --- I readthe original hard copyandcounted the 82 I quoted. Here's the link so I'm guessing it's the same: http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/recruiting-blog/bs-sp-baltimore-di-hoops-players-1107-20121106,0,3936312.story Yep, 82. I've also reviewed the hometowns and I can say somewhat emphatically that the DC area is NOT a part of this. Columbia, Laurel and even Annapolis might be considered about the southern-most border but none of these kids are "inside the beltway" towns like Rockville, Chevy Chase, Oxon Hill and so on. This is pure Bal'mer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 @jbizz --- I readthe original hard copyandcounted the 82 I quoted. Here's the link so I'm guessing it's the same: http://www.baltimore...0,3936312.story Yep, 82. I've also reviewed the hometowns and I can say somewhat emphatically that the DC area is NOT a part of this. Columbia, Laurel and even Annapolis might be considered about the southern-most border but none of these kids are "inside the beltway" towns like Rockville, Chevy Chase, Oxon Hill and so on. This is pure Bal'mer. At least half of these guys went to a prep school, community college or other another college before going to their school of choice. While I do not doubt B'More's ability to create true, legit basketball players, this list is truly representative of less than half of the actual numbers listed. I can read a paper, Taj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 @bizz --- where they went to school prior to getting to D1 is irrelevant, especially if it's all just a fifth year kind of thing.. And if it's counted for one, it would/should be counted for all metro areas. Swopeshire would count for St. Louis in this equation even finishing at IMG in Florida. All things being even. Tommie Liddell went to prep school,did he not? He would count as St.Louis as well. Aguille Carr here, a Seton Hall commit, has been Bal'mer's POY for the last two years ----- starting as a 5'5" sophomore. And now he's a 5'5" senior. Just went to enroll in Florida, was homesick (for his baby girl --- really has a 1+ year old from a cheerleader) and is now back at a local Christian school to get his grades and stuff in order for Seton Hall. I know the quality of a STL PHL education was always questioned, Bal'mer schools seem to be worse. So if you go to Barton Community College in Kansas, you're now a Kansan and not a bizzle-ite? Hell, even when Wilt went to Kansas, he was still from West Philly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 @bizz --- where they went to school prior to getting to D1 is irrelevant, especially if it's all just a fifth year kind of thing.. And if it's counted for one, it would/should be counted for all metro areas. Swopeshire would count for St. Louis in this equation even finishing at IMG in Florida. All things being even. Tommie Liddell went to prep school,did he not? He would count as St.Louis as well. Aguille Carr here, a Seton Hall commit, has been Bal'mer's POY for the last two years ----- starting as a 5'5" sophomore. And now he's a 5'5" senior. Just went to enroll in Florida, was homesick (for his baby girl --- really has a 1+ year old from a cheerleader) and is now back at a local Christian school to get his grades and stuff in order for Seton Hall. I know the quality of a STL PHL education was always questioned, Bal'mer schools seem to be worse. So if you go to Barton Community College in Kansas, you're now a Kansan and not a bizzle-ite? Hell, even when Wilt went to Kansas, he was still from West Philly. You are right. Not sure what point I was trying to make earlier in regards to the prep schools, community colleges, etc. Also, as you showed, this list is just for the B'more metro area and not the entire Beltway. It is awfully impressive and definitely a lot more than what St. Louis can show. I guess I was just in a contrarian mood last night and just wanted to argue with you, Taj, even though there was nothing to argue about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Can anyone find an actual list of St. Louis or Missouri based D1 players? All we have in this thread are a couple people guessing the number is 20.I did some google searches looking for a listing of all D1 players and came up with nothing useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 @bizz ---contrary to popular belief, I'm not trying to argue with anyone. Dissenting opinions accepted. But as kshoe points out, until weget a list, the argument/debate goes unanswered. If I'm wrong on my STL Division 1 production, I'm wrong. I'd still like to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I would suggest hitting up Earl Austin Jr. If anyone would know, he would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I would suggest hitting up Earl Austin Jr. If anyone would know, he would. -good call on this Thicks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 The post used to run a list every of kids who received D-1 scholarships from the area. I haven't seen it printed for a couple years. former poster Nate Latsch would surely have a rough idea. I'll ask him. I'd stick with my original guess that it is less than 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 While we wait on somebody to find an actual list of St. Louis area players playing D1 basketball, I'll point out a few additional considerations: - There are likely about 4,500 total D1 players (~350 teams x 13 players per team). This assumes all scholarships are being used but ignores walk-ons. - The Baltimore total of 82 seemingly includes walk-ons as he said he looked at rosters. Probably not a big deal, but it should be noted. - Baltimore and St. Louis metro areas are roughly the same size -- 2.8 million each. If you assume the U.S. is 300 million, you'd expect 0.93% of all D1 players to come from each metro area. - 82 divided by 4,500 is roughly 1.82% so Baltimore produces D1 players at a rate of roughly double the rest of the country. So I'd say the list provided by Taj does a good job of proving that Baltimore produces a high ratio of D1 players. The real question is not whether St. Louis produces talent at Baltimore's level but whether it produces near the national level because part of Taj's argument was that St. Louis talent was "weak". To do that, the number should be around 40. As I've already said, I can't find a good source of the data but I did look at SIUE, SIUC, SEMO and Missouri St. and found 8 players that I'd call part of the St. Louis region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 @kshoe ----hey, thanks for that. If the number hits 40, I'll concede and drop the argument with 40 and 0.93% as the mean watermark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I had a little bit of time this afternoon, so I decided to check the current rosters of all the D-1 teams and see how many players were from the St. Louis area. I came up with 42 active D-1 players. Thus, based on kshoe's calculation, St. Louis is pretty much where they should be in terms of D-1 talent, in comparison with the rest of the country. Also of interest: - 13 of the players are currently on BCS teams. - 12 are currently freshman, which isn't out of wack with the total number playing. Thus, one can assume that St. Louis generally producs 10-12 D-1 players a year. - There are 2 Ivy League players and a military academy player on the list. Just wanted to point that out as those schools don't give scholarships. - SIU-E and Austin Peay have the most St. Louis area kids, at 3 a piece. - There is only one St. Louis area player in the A-10 right now (Roosevelt Jones: Butler) Thus, this should put an end to the argument (for now) on whether or not St. Louis is 'weak' when it comes to producing D-1 talent, as Taj said he'd drop it if the number hit 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I had a little bit of time this afternoon, so I decided to check the current rosters of all the D-1 teams and see how many players were from the St. Louis area. I came up with 42 active D-1 players. Thus, based on kshoe's calculation, St. Louis is pretty much where they should be in terms of D-1 talent, in comparison with the rest of the country. Also of interest: - 13 of the players are currently on BCS teams. - 12 are currently freshman, which isn't out of wack with the total number playing. Thus, one can assume that St. Louis generally producs 10-12 D-1 players a year. - There are 2 Ivy League players and a military academy player on the list. Just wanted to point that out as those schools don't give scholarships. - SIU-E and Austin Peay have the most St. Louis area kids, at 3 a piece. - There is only one St. Louis area player in the A-10 right now (Roosevelt Jones: Butler) Thus, this should put an end to the argument (for now) on whether or not St. Louis is 'weak' when it comes to producing D-1 talent, as Taj said he'd drop it if the number hit 40. Well done. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Here is a full list Ryan Pierson - Vermont Roosevelt Jones - Butler Anthony Booker - Iowa St Ben McCalemore - Kansas Darrell Johnson - Kansas St Connell Crossland - TCU Cameron Beidshceid - Notre Dame Tyler Griffey - Illinois Kendal Shell - Minnesota Walkon Jared Swopshire - Northwestern Dantiel Daniels - SIUC Anthony James - Northern iowa Keith Pickens - MO St Nathan Scheer - MO St Bryant Allen - Illinois St Oginni Mogbuluwaga - Creighton Darion Harris - Bradley George Cater - Ball St Javier Duren - Yale Will Childs-Klein - Yale Christian Thomas - Loyola Ill Joe Harris - Austin Peay Anthony Campbell -Austin Peay Corey Arentsen - Austin Peay Will Triggs - Austin Peay Darion Rackley - Jacksonville St BJ McCloughlin - Tennessee Martin Micheal Messer - SIUE Charles Joy - SIUE Jerome Jones - SIUE Jared White - SEMO Colin Ferguson - SEMO Scott Suggs - Washington Larry Toomey - Army John Brandenburg - Colgate Jordon Granger - Auburn BJ Young - Arkansas Ryan Rosburg - Missouri Eric Moeler- Missouri Walkon Tony Thompson - Samford Deron Hobbs - Grambling St Josh Armstrong - Jackson St Joshua White - South Dakota St Conferences Summit - 1 SWAC - 3 SEC - 4 Patriot - 2 Pac 10 - 1 Ohio Valley - 11 Horizon - 1 Ivy - 2 MAC - 1 MVC - 6 Big 10 - 3 Big East - 1 Big 12 - 4 A 10 - 1 America East - 1 3 of the kids may be walkons. Moeller & Shell for sure, Oginni on Creighton not so sure. Also another kid Nino Williams on K St played in the PHL for 1 or 2 years before moving to Kansas. He may count for half. Somewhat surprising to me. I was way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NH Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 3 of the kids may be walkons. Moeller & Shell for sure, Oginni on Creighton not so sure. Also another kid Nino Williams on K St played in the PHL for 1 or 2 years before moving to Kansas. He may count for half.Mo is a walkon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAndGrind Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Here is a full list Ryan Pierson - Vermont Roosevelt Jones - Butler Anthony Booker - Iowa St Ben McCalemore - Kansas Darrell Johnson - Kansas St Connell Crossland - TCU Cameron Beidshceid - Notre Dame Tyler Griffey - Illinois Kendal Shell - Minnesota Walkon Jared Swopshire - Northwestern Dantiel Daniels - SIUC Anthony James - Northern iowa Keith Pickens - MO St Bryant Allen - Illinois St Oginni Mogbuluwaga - Creighton Darion Harris - Bradley George Cater - Ball St Javier Duren - Yale Will Childs-Klein - Yale Christian Thomas - Loyola Ill Joe Harris - Austin Peay Anthony Campbell -Austin Peay Corey Arentsen - Austin Peay Will Triggs - Austin Peay Darion Rackley - Jacksonville St BJ McCloughlin - Tennessee Martin Micheal Messer - SIUE Charles Joy - SIUE Jerome Jones - SIUE Jared White - SEMO Colin Ferguson - SEMO Scott Suggs - Washington Larry Toomey - Army John Brandenburg - Colgate Jordon Granger - Auburn BJ Young - Arkansas Ryan Rosburg - Missouri Eric Moeler- Missouri Walkon Tony Thompson - Samford Deron Hobbs - Grambling St Josh Armstrong - Jackson St Joshua White - South Dakota St Conferences Summit - 1 SWAC - 3 SEC - 4 Patriot - 2 Pac 10 - 1 Ohio Valley - 11 Horizon - 1 Ivy - 2 MAC - 1 MVC - 6 Big 10 - 3 Big East - 1 Big 12 - 4 A 10 - 1 America East - 1 3 of the kids may be walkons. Moeller & Shell for sure, Oginni on Creighton not so sure. Also another kid Nino Williams on K St played in the PHL for 1 or 2 years before moving to Kansas. He may count for half. Somewhat surprising to me. I was way off. If you're going to count Suggs - you should count Scheer at Mo. State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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