OT ballpark village

[SShoe]

Hoo boy.

Cincy has done wonders on its riverfront in the past several years. The Banks is a hugely ambitious project, and what you saw is only Phase I. Phase II is still in development and will tie the rest of the riverfront together nicely. The area has become way more pedestrian friendly, and yeah, the underground parking is big-time; anytime a city can develop space otherwise used for a parking lot/garage is a positive.

However, using the Banks as a comparison for Ballpark Village is not quite apples to apples. The new proposal for the Arch grounds would be more apt, given that it involves redevelopment of an underused riverfront area isolated from the rest of downtown because of a major sunken highway artery (then again, the fact that it's a National Park also makes that one not quite apples to apples). Cincinnati also has the advantage of Covington-Newport-Bellevue, which is a far cry from East St. Louis-Granite City-Sauget. Northern Kentucky retained its old brick residential neighborhoods instead of wiping them out for major industry and an insane network of highway ramps. To be fair, NKY has only recently seen economic development along the Ohio River in a big way (e.g. Newport on the Levee) and is still not all the way over being seen as the lower-income alternative to Cincinnati, which is justified.

The Banks may look wonderful now- and it is- but what St. Louisans might not realize is that the planning started back in 1996. Ground didn't break until 2008. Businesses on the Banks didn't begin opening until late 2011 (not including the Freedom Center, which opened in 2004, and the stadiums, which were already there in the form of Riverfront Stadium and US Bank Arena, which still stands). The whole project won't be completed until 2018, if it stays on schedule. The Ballpark Village project could not have broken ground until 2006; if it got underway this or next year, it'd come in way earlier than the whole Banks project. In the sense that a major downtown project has been greatly delayed for a host of reasons, frustrating the citizens, The Banks and Ballpark Village are similar.

Also, Hamilton County is on the hook for the Paul Brown Stadium and Great American Ball Park deals, which are unquestionably the worst in pro sports (followed by the Edward Jones Dome deal). So the bookends of a much larger, beautiful riverfront development are crippling the County with debt. (Here is an article about it; the numbers are staggering). Like St. Louis, Cincinnati has lost some major headquarters over the years, most recently Chiquita, as Charlotte bent over backwards with tax breaks to lure them away (a fairly recent practice which I find deplorable on every level, businesses holding cities hostage for tax breaks). Unlike St. Louis, it has managed to hang on to more and has some Fortune 500 companies downtown, Procter & Gamble being the biggest.

Yes, there are local politicians in power who are stubborn and corrupt and forgo their job - public service - in order to grease their own pockets and those of their buddies. That's not unique to this City. The biggest difference is that we also don't have the strength of a larger county, such as Cincinnati with Hamilton County, and we have the political infrastructure of a much larger city than we are now (accepting our population loss and shrinking with grace is something that has not come easily to this city, nor many others). Cincinnati and St. Louis both have good mayors right now; Mayor Mallory has the major advantage of having 9 City Council members compared to St. Louis' 28 (pending the outcome of the bill to shrink this number), and they turn over more frequently. STL's aldermen are shockingly entrenched in some wards, and a lot of them are awful, awful human beings.

Cincy also has the advantage of being slightly smaller; city proper, Cincy and STL are not too far off, but in terms of MSA, they're about 2.1 million to our 2.8 million, or 27th in the US to our 19th. It's a little bit easier to change opinions and really get steam going in a smaller place. Just another factor of many.

Anyway, I could clearly go on and on about this, but just wanted to point out that The Banks didn't happen overnight. Cincinnati has done a lot of great things on the riverfront and can be a great example for St. Louis. The mix of corporate and political greed that led to the Ballpark Village standoff is a complete embarrassment and has left us with a parking lot, an uneven softbal field, and a drainage ditch with no drain (and an empty building, if you include the former Bowling and Cardinals Halls of Fame). Until we get over that crap (and as AlumniFan says, change our misguided perceptions and work toward common goals), we'll be stuck with more dead-end projects, broken promises, and unfulfilled potential.

Important point above in bold. I'm no huge defender of the BPV deal or certainly of Cordish, but like BPV, the Banks project had been in the planning stages for over 10 years without ever breaking ground and until maybe 2 years ago, was a big ugly hole in the ground. And BPV could have been built by now, but that would've required the city to back the TIF bonds in the way that I believe Cinci did with the Banks and KC did with Power and Light (which they are now on the hook for over $10 million a year).

While Cinci has made some nice progress in the downtown area and there seems to be many things to be excited about there, they have some of the same problems. In particular, the city of Cinci lost 10% of its population from 2000 to 2010 (compared to STL's 8%). This same type of decline is occurring all over the midwest (Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc.) Despite what people here think, St. Louis' problems aren't necessarily St. Louis-specific.

[bonwich]

According to the Post's own David Nicklaus the high water mark was 11 in 2000. In the list that came out this year we have 9. I think at one point during the 2000's we dropped to 7.

And now, with the imminent departure of Charter, we're about to be down to 8. Which corresponds to what I originally said: St. Louis has had a large number of Fortune 500 companies for decades, and has declined for decades.

(And when American Airlines disappears, the airline hub will be even less likely and the billion-dollar boondoggle runway will become an even bigger boondoggle -- although St. Clair County will, simultaneously, continue to throw money at the other moronic, multimillion-dollar-losing airport project on its side of the river.)

[jbizzle09]

And now, with the imminent departure of Charter, we're about to be down to 8. Which corresponds to what I originally said: St. Louis has had a large number of Fortune 500 companies for decades, and has declined for decades.

(And when American Airlines disappears, the airline hub will be even less likely and the billion-dollar boondoggle runway will become an even bigger boondoggle -- although St. Clair County will, simultaneously, continue to throw money at the other moronic, multimillion-dollar-losing airport project on its side of the river.)

MidAmerica Airport has to be one of the greatest blunders in recent history.

[Cowboy]

-good luck pistol, keep posting here and change your travel schedule to see the Bills in seattle and palo alto

[billiken_roy]

I am talking about The City. Roy started the thread about Ballpark Village, in The City. SL city population was 900,000 now it is 350,000. It is a mess. Oh, Washington Avenue rocks, people will tell you. Other than that, what? I was born and raised in The City. How can you 28 yr olds raised in west county understand the history here? And ask an executive level banker, if you really know one well (I do and have spoken with several), about the whole SL Metro area economy, not just The City, to boot. Though I doubt they will be candid, they will tell you the public version. Summary: the SL area economy is in bad shape. Flights into SL airport are 40% of what they were 10 yrs ago. Etc, etc. Yeah, things are great, Brian.

mb is right no this one.

[West Pine Jim]

-good luck pistol, keep posting here and change your travel schedule to see the Bills in seattle and palo alto

+1

[MB73]

Jesus, I think Roy just agreed with me; it might be time for me to retire. Or maybe he did to imply he is an executive level banker.

Pistol, I lived in the city until age 22, but raised two sons in Chesterfield your age within a few yrs, the same private uppity high school as you... so that's how I know "perceptions" of west county raised brats; also, it's funny, you said your wife is from Cincinnati and "we" decided to move there. Yeah. Seriously, though, best of luck!

Airport stats are not just related to the hub situation, it is a factor, but the massive flight losses are significantly a function of economic activity. Some companies have decided to leave here or not to come here because Lambert always has been ca-ca. How many hotels around the airport are closed, appear as wastelands?

And just citing how many Fortune 500 companies we have is not sufficient to describe the local economy, just one indicator.

The City of St Louis (oh, 318,000, sigh) blew it. Incompetent leadership, starting with sorry, lame mayors elected the last 25 yrs or so. More than that, but a key. The Ballpark Village farce is just another "in your face".

[willie]

The reason we don't have more Fortune 500 companies has nothing to do with STL it has to do with corporate mergers and or bankruptcies. Busch, McDonnell Douglas and TWA were bought out. I'm not sure if Mercantile or Boatmans were 500 companies but there gone . Ralston Purina ,Pet Milk, and Mallincrodt are others that come to mind. The lack of flights out of Lambert sucks but has nothing to do with corporate mergers.

[davidnark]

Here is something to ponder. How many people were employed by Ralston in St. Louis when it was sold and how many are now? How about revenue managed here then and now? How about Wells Fargo and Monsanto? What happens if you include their spinoffs still based here? The media still obsesses over the loss of sexy corporate "public" headquarters and hasn't even figured out that several of the largest acquisitions have significantly increased local employment and business.

[bonwich]

Here is something to ponder. How many people were employed by Ralston in St. Louis when it was sold and how many are now? How about revenue managed here then and now? How about Wells Fargo and Monsanto? What happens if you include their spinoffs still based here? The media Local civic "leadership" still obsesses over the loss of sexy corporate "public" headquarters and hasn't even figured out that several of the largest acquisitions have significantly increased local employment and business.

Fixed it for you.

[Pistol]

Pistol, I lived in the city until age 22, but raised two sons in Chesterfield your age within a few yrs, the same private uppity high school as you... so that's how I know "perceptions" of west county raised brats; also, it's funny, you said your wife is from Cincinnati and "we" decided to move there. Yeah. Seriously, though, best of luck!

I didn't ask how you "knew" - I ask whether you cared or not. And I didn't cross any lines by bringing your sons into it; you brought them up. I just asked if you actually cared what perceptions and sense of history County-raised kids have of the City. It's funny- being raised in the City gave me some street cred at the "private uppity high school" I attended. That was a rather unexpected side effect of going there. I got some pretty interesting questions sometimes. I also remembe times where I had to drive out to the school and meet them so they could leave their cars somewhere "safe" if we were doing anything at or around my house; their parents didn't want their cars stolen or damaged. My sister is going through the same thing right now; a bunch of her SLU friends she's been hanging out with this summer went to St. Joe's.

By the way, I know you couldn't pass an easy (albeit really dumb) jab, but I actually have way more work-related connections and chances for career advancement in Cincinnati. And I will tell you this much about my wife: she graduated first in her class at UC Law School, then got the highest score of every individual who took the Ohio State Bar Exam in 2010. I'm glad I don't have the completely moronic machismo-driven hang-ups you do. I may only have a SLU marketing degree but I'm smart enough to know not to waste a good thing when I have it. You're pathetic.

[MB73]

Awh, Pistol.

That was good until the last sentence. And I had wished you good luck.

I actually agreed with your points for the most part. And Cincy has better job opportunities than SL. Look at all the numerous wasteland areas in SL. How about St Charles Rock, road, between 270 and 70? Or Manchester, a mile east and west of Clarkson? And of course, all thru The City itself. Etc. Looks like "The Book of Eli" movie.

Well, the jab about moving to Cincy was not so bad, many men kid others about their wives being in charge. Chill out. No big deal.

But you should not have stated that your wife is smarter than you. Never, ever.

Of course, it could never happen to me, no matter who I married, maybe there is a female cardiothoracic surgeon at Duke Medical Center out there... hmmmm... anyway, I cannot relate at all.

Again, good luck. Seriously.

(This is a certainty. Some day, after you have some kids, pay taxes for 15 yrs, deal with the world, you will become a Republican. And your kids will grow to be Democrats. Remember me when that happens. )

[bbtds]

I went to Indy a number of times before I was 21. So i was not on the bar scene but every time I was there I absolutely hated it. Maybe people whove gone to the bar scene or hung out there more can refute this but I know I am not applying to jobs there post-grad.

When was the last time you were in Indy? I really feel that Indy is the ultimate city for a sports fan. There was a time when the only thing to do in Indy was watch HS basketball or go to a strip club. As we know the Pacers found the strip clubs easily. But downtown has changed tremendously. And the Pacers have changed tremendously. The NCAA Hall of Champions, many other museums, the IMS (I'm sure you'll get it.......vrooom vrooom!!), Lucas Oil Stadium, new cricket fields, a Velodrome, the Natatorium on the IUPUI campus, Butler....arrrgh!, Colts......with any Luck! (get it?), Monument Circle, State Capital, White River State Park, the downtown canal, the Childrens Museum, the Monon Greenway Trail, the NCAA....boooo!, the NFHS (National Federation of HS Associations), the Circle Center Mall Arts Garden, Victory Field (ok, it's the Pirates AAA) and many other attractions.

[Cowboy]

When was the last time you were in Indy? I really feel that Indy is the ultimate city for a sports fan. There was a time when the only thing to do in Indy was watch HS basketball or go to a strip club. As we know the Pacers found the strip clubs easily. But downtown has changed tremendously. And the Pacers have changed tremendously. The NCAA Hall of Champions, many other museums, the IMS (I'm sure you'll get it.......vrooom vrooom!!), Lucas Oil Stadium, new cricket fields, a Velodrome, the Natatorium on the IUPUI campus, Butler....arrrgh!, Colts......with any Luck! (get it?), Monument Circle, State Capital, White River State Park, the downtown canal, the Childrens Museum, the Monon Greenway Trail, the NCAA....boooo!, the NFHS (National Federation of HS Associations), the Circle Center Mall Arts Garden, Victory Field (ok, it's the Pirates AAA) and many other attractions.

-in deep annoucer voice...the previous message brought to you by the indianapolis tourism bureau

[milwaukeebill]

When was the last time you were in Indy? I really feel that Indy is the ultimate city for a sports fan. There was a time when the only thing to do in Indy was watch HS basketball or go to a strip club. As we know the Pacers found the strip clubs easily. But downtown has changed tremendously. And the Pacers have changed tremendously. The NCAA Hall of Champions, many other museums, the IMS (I'm sure you'll get it.......vrooom vrooom!!), Lucas Oil Stadium, new cricket fields, a Velodrome, the Natatorium on the IUPUI campus, Butler....arrrgh!, Colts......with any Luck! (get it?), Monument Circle, State Capital, White River State Park, the downtown canal, the Childrens Museum, the Monon Greenway Trail, the NCAA....boooo!, the NFHS (National Federation of HS Associations), the Circle Center Mall Arts Garden, Victory Field (ok, it's the Pirates AAA) and many other attractions.

I was on Butlers campus 2 years ago to play lacrosse. We snuck into Hinkle which was pretty cool. I am certainly no expert and am definitely willing to give it another chance. Things like the speedway and the NCAA hall of Champs intrigue me, but I already know I hate Lucas Oil. WHO PLAYS FOOTBALL INSIDE??? Can someone please tear the roof off of Ed Jones already?