MB73 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 After reading what Holloway's going thru emotionally, you wonder if KM didn't suffer a little hangover from the "incident". We all discussed how he hasn't seemed to be the same player he was his soph year. It seems he's starting to get back to where he was, but I'd guess he probably didn't think it was all that much fun in the early part of this season. When Mack said, "I want my tough guard back", I can picture RM saying to KM, "I want my leader back". These are young men who have had stigmas attached to them. And they have to go out and perform in front of a lot of people. It's got to be tough. Absolutely. Of course KM did. He got screwed over 50 times worse. By a kangaroo court. Betrayed by his own school. Kicked out of school, then off the team the whole year, lost some friends off the team. For what? So IMO his heart was not 100% in the game for quite some time, but now I think he is "back"... with his teamates, the heat of the competition, the chance to make the NCAA's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't begrudge Holloway as much as I do the Xavier Athletic Department. Their lack of control leading up to the event, their absolute mishandling of the event as it happened and in the immediate aftermath, and their completely fumbling the public relations afterward all add up to one big embarrassment. They look second-rate in every way to me, and that's unacceptable for the AD in charge of one of the consistently best 25 basketball programs in the nation. Mack and his staff, Bobinski, the SID- they're all to blame. Mack and co. let the trash talk leading up to the event overheat too much, they let it be a motivator, they let it go on for two hours during the game - and the officials never even gave warnings to the players - they never took the players out, and it all boiled over until it turned into the brawl. How on earth a coach, AD, SID, and assistants to all of them allowed the two biggest trash talkers in the game to get behind microphones is absolutely beyond my understanding. They were so fired up in that moment, of course they were going to say something moronic. I would have, too, and so would just about anyone else - the word choice may have been different but there wasn't anything productive anyone could have said. When you look back at this, it's staggering how many bad decisions were made. All you can hope is that officials, coaches, athletic departments, and fans learn from it and realize the long-term effects that can come from allowing your rivalry to turn into something unhealthy. Holloway and Lyons are going to carry this with them for a long, long time, if not forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't begrudge Holloway as much as I do the Xavier Athletic Department. Their lack of control leading up to the event, their absolute mishandling of the event as it happened and in the immediate aftermath, and their completely fumbling the public relations afterward all add up to one big embarrassment. They look second-rate in every way to me, and that's unacceptable for the AD in charge of one of the consistently best 25 basketball programs in the nation. Mack and his staff, Bobinski, the SID- they're all to blame. Mack and co. let the trash talk leading up to the event overheat too much, they let it be a motivator, they let it go on for two hours during the game - and the officials never even gave warnings to the players - they never took the players out, and it all boiled over until it turned into the brawl. How on earth a coach, AD, SID, and assistants to all of them allowed the two biggest trash talkers in the game to get behind microphones is absolutely beyond my understanding. They were so fired up in that moment, of course they were going to say something moronic. I would have, too, and so would just about anyone else - the word choice may have been different but there wasn't anything productive anyone could have said. When you look back at this, it's staggering how many bad decisions were made. All you can hope is that officials, coaches, athletic departments, and fans learn from it and realize the long-term effects that can come from allowing your rivalry to turn into something unhealthy. Holloway and Lyons are going to carry this with them for a long, long time, if not forever. Excellent post, Pistol. Obviously the lack of institutional control played the biggest factor in the situation. Everything was handled poorly, prior to, during and after the game. However, for many, it is simply a whole lot easier to place the blame solely on the black kid who said 'gangsters', label him a thug and be done with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'll start feeling sorry for Tu once the season is over. Until then, the Bills have a conference to win and a spot in the NCAA tournament to earn, and as John Kreese of the Cobra Kai dojo says, mercy is for the weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'll start feeling sorry for Tu once the season is over. Until then, the Bills have a conference to win and a spot in the NCAA tournament to earn, and as John Kreese of the Cobra Kai dojo says, mercy is for the weak. "sweep the leg.............do you have a problem with that?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 "sweep the leg.............do you have a problem with that?" Dammit! For some reason I wasn't able to link the video from Karate Kid. Oh well. I figure someone else can at least link the one Cobra Kai yelling "Get him a body bag...YEAH!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 There is only so much an institution or coach can do for an adult. He should have known better. Although it is great to see the life taken out of Tu, even better is that Chris Mack has been possessed by the ghost of Brian Gregory. Good days ahead for X. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbofive Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Dammit! For some reason I wasn't able to link the video from Karate Kid. Oh well. I figure someone else can at least link the one Cobra Kai yelling "Get him a body bag...YEAH!" oh gotdammit, bizzle... i hope you'll have figured this out by the time i've refreshed. and if noone's seen wilfred, i highly recommend. i haven't watched TV in years, but i like that one. and it's got mother######ing chris klein. who my buddy saw at breakfast king last year, being all chris klein-y to the waitress. ###### cracks me up. nova. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 "sweep the leg.............do you have a problem with that?" NO SENSEI!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'll start feeling sorry for Tu once the season is over. Until then, the Bills have a conference to win and a spot in the NCAA tournament to earn, and as John Kreese of the Cobra Kai dojo says, mercy is for the weak. Don't get me wrong, I want to beat the ###### out of Xavier when they come to SLU. And I know, JMM, that Tu and Lyons are adults and know better. But they were so, so fired up at that point. They had just dominated their rival and talked constant trash for two hours and caused an enormous brawl in which blood was shed. What person in their shoes could have sat down and given the typical cookie-cutter postgame answers? They weren't asked cookie-cutter questions that day, that's for sure. Tu's words were stupid but it amazes me how much stock people have put into them. All I'm saying is that the people within Xavier's athletic department deserve way more blame than the players. They're the ones being paid to handle the press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Also, there's going to be some additional fallout when it comes to Xavier's program this offseason. Lyons and Mack are very much at odds these days (he's way in the doghouse and hasn't been starting) and he badly wants to go pro after this season. He probably wouldn't get picked in the NBA draft but is thought to be eyeing Europe instead of coming back for his senior year. Justin Martin will almost certainly be transferring, as will Griffin McKenzie and maybe another guy. This is all in addition to Frease, Holloway, and Walker graduating, so they're going to have a dramatically different roster next season unless Mack can miraculously patch things up with every guy. Granted, they have some nice signees and an impressive recruiting pipeline at the moment, but next year will be a transition year for our Cincy rivals. I won't say this is all because of the brawl but they were 8-0 after that game and have been 8-8 since then. Makes you wonder how different things would be with the program if they were continuing to play at a high level. Things are very, very tense over there these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbizzle09 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 There is only so much an institution or coach can do for an adult. He should have known better. Although it is great to see the life taken out of Tu, even better is that Chris Mack has been possessed by the ghost of Brian Gregory. Good days ahead for X. I would agree with you, if X and Mack did anything at all. That is the main point. Nothing was done. No action was ever taken to even try to curb the nonsense. Mack basically allowed the buildup to occur prior to the game, allowed Tu and Lyons to talk trash to Cincy the entire game, kept both of them in the game at the very end (despite being up by over 20) and then still let them go out after the game to speak to the press. There were multiple opportunities he had to get it under control and he did absolutely nothing. Basically, he allowed his players to get whipped into a frenzy, push their emotions to the limit and did nothing to protect them. He could have pulled them out of the game and admonished them for their behavior at any point. He could have discussed with the refs that the game was getting out of hand emotionally and perhaps they could do something to get it back under control. He could have, at the very least, taken Lyons and Tu out when the game was well in hand. There were dozens of poor, or non, decisions made by Mack during the whole thing. He completely failed the school and the team that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAndGrind Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I would agree with you, if X and Mack did anything at all. That is the main point. Nothing was done. No action was ever taken to even try to curb the nonsense. Mack basically allowed the buildup to occur prior to the game, allowed Tu and Lyons to talk trash to Cincy the entire game, kept both of them in the game at the very end (despite being up by over 20) and then still let them go out after the game to speak to the press. There were multiple opportunities he had to get it under control and he did absolutely nothing. Basically, he allowed his players to get whipped into a frenzy, push their emotions to the limit and did nothing to protect them. He could have pulled them out of the game and admonished them for their behavior at any point. He could have discussed with the refs that the game was getting out of hand emotionally and perhaps they could do something to get it back under control. He could have, at the very least, taken Lyons and Tu out when the game was well in hand. There were dozens of poor, or non, decisions made by Mack during the whole thing. He completely failed the school and the team that day. +1 No doubt TU deserves some blame, but Chris Mack failed miserably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 There is no doubt that Xavier is dysfunctional, the team has gone 8-8 since the debacle, certainly you have to assume there are major problems in the clubhouse. Lyons is the centerpiece. That is good for us, this may help us beat them out for one of the A-10 top 3 spots, but also takes away some of the edge off our victory against them. Xavier has has struggled or lost against most all of the decent teams they have played since their 8-0 start, any team under 100 rpi. Great athletes; will they suddenly unite and play good ball, go on a run? I do not think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prebilliken Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 +1 No doubt TU deserves some blame, but Chris Mack failed miserably. BUMS! They're all bums! I felt sorry for a brief moment today but I don't anymore. I only need X to be good long enough to get my dream Catholic school conference together. After that happens they can fall apart for all I care. Either way: Bills win the next 42 straight games against Xavier. That's how I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAndGrind Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 BUMS! They're all bums! I felt sorry for a brief moment today but I don't anymore. I only need X to be good long enough to get my dream Catholic school conference together. After that happens they can fall apart for all I care. Either way: Bills win the next 42 straight games against Xavier. That's how I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Rich Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 +1 No doubt TU deserves some blame, but Chris Mack failed miserably. Tu Holloway in World History: Man those Vandles and Visigoths were some ganstas, I mean they were real thugs. They busted into Rome and zipped'em up. The kid should've never been on camera but he should've also been smart enough to think this was the social equivalent of being in class......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Don't get me wrong, I want to beat the ###### out of Xavier when they come to SLU. And I know, JMM, that Tu and Lyons are adults and know better. But they were so, so fired up at that point. They had just dominated their rival and talked constant trash for two hours and caused an enormous brawl in which blood was shed. What person in their shoes could have sat down and given the typical cookie-cutter postgame answers? They weren't asked cookie-cutter questions that day, that's for sure. Tu's words were stupid but it amazes me how much stock people have put into them. All I'm saying is that the people within Xavier's athletic department deserve way more blame than the players. They're the ones being paid to handle the press. I don't buy the excuse that they were fired up and all that. I do agree that the athletic department, probably SID, should have never let any of them talk postgame. Mack should have yanked them when they were up 20 with 2 minutes left. He probably would have avoided this whole thing. But this wasn't their first interview after a close game. At the most basic of levels, he should have known better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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