OT - Colby traded

[slufanskip]

Rasmus, Miller, Tallet, and Walters for Edwin Jackson, Mark Rpz..., and Octavia Dotel

This is just silly. Rasmus has his issues but why did Tony have to work to drive down his value so that the trade had to happen now. Edwin Jackson is a middling starter, the lefty reliever Mark R is pretty good and I'd just shoot Dotel and put him out to pasture. After seeing the results of getting rid of Brendan Ryan because Tony and his ***** Pujols didn't like him why do we do this? Tony will be gone he doesn't care about the long term results of the Cards. Mo is the asst GM, Tony is actually in charge. I am so freaking pissed I'm teetering on just quiting the Cards until Tony is gone and I'm a guy that chose St. Louis to move to entirely because of the Cards. Mo

[Billboy1]

TLR runs the show he gets another cookie cutter(.500)pitcher that might not even be here next year for what was supossed to be a franchise player he messed up. Add Rasmus to the list of don't piss me off or you'll be gone-Smith,Kline,Rolen,Ryan. Who's next?

[The Great One]

Rasmus, Miller, Tallet, and Walters for Edwin Jackson, Mark Rpz..., and Octavia Dotel

This is just silly. Rasmus has his issues but why did Tony have to work to drive down his value so that the trade had to happen now. Edwin Jackson is a middling starter, the lefty reliever Mark R is pretty good and I'd just shoot Dotel and put him out to pasture. After seeing the results of getting rid of Brendan Ryan because Tony and his ***** Pujols didn't like him why do we do this? Tony will be gone he doesn't care about the long term results of the Cards. Mo is the asst GM, Tony is actually in charge. I am so freaking pissed I'm teetering on just quiting the Cards until Tony is gone and I'm a guy that chose St. Louis to move to entirely because of the Cards. Mo

[/quote

[joe_davola]

I like it. Rasmus is a crybaby. Long live larussa. Best coach in the history of stl sports besides majerus.

[billiken_roy]

rasmus, most underachieving overhyped player since jd drew. bottom line is john jay had outplayed him. and that isnt an endorsement of john jay.

[NH]

rasmus, most underachieving overhyped player since jd drew. bottom line is john jay had outplayed him. and that isnt an endorsement of john jay.

I love Jon Jay and hate this trade.

When TLR is gone in two years and Rasmus is an all-star, it'll be a shame.

Theriot was the true weak link. Play Descalso at short, move Theriot to second or play Craig there.

[Ms. Doubtfire]

Rasmus, Miller, Tallet, and Walters for Edwin Jackson, Mark Rpz..., and Octavia Dotel

This is just silly. Rasmus has his issues but why did Tony have to work to drive down his value so that the trade had to happen now. Edwin Jackson is a middling starter, the lefty reliever Mark R is pretty good and I'd just shoot Dotel and put him out to pasture. After seeing the results of getting rid of Brendan Ryan because Tony and his ***** Pujols didn't like him why do we do this? Tony will be gone he doesn't care about the long term results of the Cards. Mo is the asst GM, Tony is actually in charge. I am so freaking pissed I'm teetering on just quiting the Cards until Tony is gone and I'm a guy that chose St. Louis to move to entirely because of the Cards. Mo

We also got Corey Patterson in the trade. Does that change your view on the trade?

[Henry]

TLR runs the show he gets another cookie cutter(.500)pitcher that might not even be here next year for what was supossed to be a franchise player he messed up. Add Rasmus to the list of don't piss me off or you'll be gone-Smith,Kline,Rolen,Ryan. Who's next?

I also see quite a few charactor flaws in TLR that make it difficult to support him as a manager of my team. This trade of a low cost up and coming player for the players received, as well as, the constant bickering I hear about through the media before this trade really soured my feelings.

I compare TLR to John Boehner. His stubborness will be his downfall. Learn to compromise and understand others.

Ready for the season,

Henry

"Would you rather reduce deficits and interest rates by raising revenue from those who are not now paying their fair share, or would you rather accept larger budget deficits, higher interest 'rates, and higher unemployment? And I think I know your answer." - Ronald Reagan

[jbizzle09]

I also see quite a few charactor flaws in TLR that make it difficult to support him as a manager of my team. This trade of a low cost up and coming player for the players received, as well as, the constant bickering I hear about through the media before this trade really soured my feelings.

I compare TLR to John Boehner. His stubborness will be his downfall. Learn to compromise and understand others.

Ready for the season,

Henry

"Would you rather reduce deficits and interest rates by raising revenue from those who are not now paying their fair share, or would you rather accept larger budget deficits, higher interest 'rates, and higher unemployment? And I think I know your answer." - Ronald Reagan

Uggghhhhh!

[GOSLU68]

Rasmus, Miller, Tallet, and Walters for Edwin Jackson, Mark Rpz..., and Octavia Dotel

This is just silly. Rasmus has his issues but why did Tony have to work to drive down his value so that the trade had to happen now. Edwin Jackson is a middling starter, the lefty reliever Mark R is pretty good and I'd just shoot Dotel and put him out to pasture. After seeing the results of getting rid of Brendan Ryan because Tony and his ***** Pujols didn't like him why do we do this? Tony will be gone he doesn't care about the long term results of the Cards. Mo is the asst GM, Tony is actually in charge. I am so freaking pissed I'm teetering on just quiting the Cards until Tony is gone and I'm a guy that chose St. Louis to move to entirely because of the Cards. Mo

friends from Chicago say Edwin Jackson, lefty is the real deal-their most talented pitcher.

My question is why does he not last more than a season with anyone? Garlic?

[Henry]

friends from Chicago say Edwin Jackson, lefty is the real deal-their most talented pitcher.

My question is why does he not last more than a season with anyone? Garlic?

Edwin Jackson is a righty. (unfortunately)

[jbizzle09]

Rasmus, Miller, Tallet, and Walters for Edwin Jackson, Mark Rpz..., and Octavia Dotel

This is just silly. Rasmus has his issues but why did Tony have to work to drive down his value so that the trade had to happen now. Edwin Jackson is a middling starter, the lefty reliever Mark R is pretty good and I'd just shoot Dotel and put him out to pasture. After seeing the results of getting rid of Brendan Ryan because Tony and his ***** Pujols didn't like him why do we do this? Tony will be gone he doesn't care about the long term results of the Cards. Mo is the asst GM, Tony is actually in charge. I am so freaking pissed I'm teetering on just quiting the Cards until Tony is gone and I'm a guy that chose St. Louis to move to entirely because of the Cards. Mo

So, you are going to quit the Cards because a manager, who has consistently won in this town, 'ran' an underachieving player out of town in an effort to make a post-season push? I am not sure we got equal value for Colby, but I think we made our team better for the stretch drive. It is easy to dismiss Edwin Jackson, but it is hard to find a young starting pitcher (still only 27) that has as much big league experience as him. While he has been somewhat inconsistent in his career, he also has an All-Star game appearance and no-hitter to his credit.

As of right now, he has pitched better than Westbrook or McClellan and makes the Cards staff a lot better immediately. Kyle gets to move to the bullpen, where he is very effective. Also, Jackson is pitching for a contract next season, so expect him to put in extra effort, especially against a weak NL Central. Another factor is that we got rid of ineffective lefties (Miller and Tallet) and picked up a highly effective one (Mark R.) Dotel might be old (37) but he has been very good this season and still can strike out batters. Probably a more effective option in the middle innings than Motte or the AAA picher of the week.

My favorite part of the trade is getting Patterson, because I think of Patterson everytime someone mentions all of the 'potential' Rasmus has. Patterson was another 5-tool OFer that everyone kept waiting on to become a star. Now, he is just a backup OFer who is a throw in on a trade.

Frankly, Jay was outplaying Rasmus and needed to be in the lineup. He is a better defensive player and is currently hitting over .300 with a higher slugging % than Colby. Despite the talk that Colby has more speed than Jay, Jay has shown far better range in CF than Rasmus.

[jbizzle09]

friends from Chicago say Edwin Jackson, lefty is the real deal-their most talented pitcher.

My question is why does he not last more than a season with anyone? Garlic?

Jackson is a righthander.

A lot of the reason for his movement probably has more to do with contract situations and team needs than anything else. He was traded to Tampa Bay from LA because he was young and cheap. Tampa then sent him to Detroit after 3 seasons because he was going to start making serious money via arbitration, as that was their MO at time (and still kind of is.)

He pitched well in Detroit so they were able to use him in a 3-team deal that brought them Austin Jackson, Daniel Schlereth and Max Scherzer, all young, cheap prospects. Arizona was a losing team when they were able to get Daniel Hudson for him, and now Chicago had an abundance of starting pitchers and needed relief help so they got a reliever and a prospect from Toronto is the 3-team deal.

Mostly just seems like he is the right player at the right time than anything personal in regards to his movement.

[slufanskip]

So, you are going to quit the Cards because a manager, who has consistently won in this town, 'ran' an underachieving player out of town in an effort to make a post-season push? I am not sure we got equal value for Colby, but I think we made our team better for the stretch drive. It is easy to dismiss Edwin Jackson, but it is hard to find a young starting pitcher (still only 27) that has as much big league experience as him. While he has been somewhat inconsistent in his career, he also has an All-Star game appearance and no-hitter to his credit.

As of right now, he has pitched better than Westbrook or McClellan and makes the Cards staff a lot better immediately. Kyle gets to move to the bullpen, where he is very effective. Also, Jackson is pitching for a contract next season, so expect him to put in extra effort, especially against a weak NL Central. Another factor is that we got rid of ineffective lefties (Miller and Tallet) and picked up a highly effective one (Mark R.) Dotel might be old (37) but he has been very good this season and still can strike out batters. Probably a more effective option in the middle innings than Motte or the AAA picher of the week.

My favorite part of the trade is getting Patterson, because I think of Patterson everytime someone mentions all of the 'potential' Rasmus has. Patterson was another 5-tool OFer that everyone kept waiting on to become a star. Now, he is just a backup OFer who is a throw in on a trade.

Frankly, Jay was outplaying Rasmus and needed to be in the lineup. He is a better defensive player and is currently hitting over .300 with a higher slugging % than Colby. Despite the talk that Colby has more speed than Jay, Jay has shown far better range in CF than Rasmus.

I can't support Tony. Sorry just too pissed off to go into all the bs that is TLR right now but I'll give you a few. Brendan Ryan, Scott Rolen, Colby. There is not a doubt in the world that Tony plays favorites. It's his job to get the best out of players, I understand Colby was probably going to go ... but then TRL has to run his mouth and drive the value of Colby down. How about a line that says yes, Colby's slumping right now but he's got a world of talent and is working hard to break out of it. We really believe Colby is going to develop into an all-star centerfielder. Nope, we get Colby is slumping because he can't be coached. His ego and need to be right has hurt the team with Colby by reducing his value and forcing Mo to do something quickly. His remarks come after Colby has begun to break from his slump. Why? We went through the same thing with Brendan who it turns out is one of the top 10 - 12 shortstops in baseball. These guys are paid a ton of money to be able to be professional and work around personality conflicts for the good of the team and TLR is paid to manage them and facilitate that, not add fuel to the fire.

[slufanskip]

rasmus, most underachieving overhyped player since jd drew. bottom line is john jay had outplayed him. and that isnt an endorsement of john jay.

can't argue Jay is outplaying him right now, but Colby is 24. Take a look at Matt Kemp last year and read a little about what was being said about him in LA. Colby certainly wasn't overhyped last year with the year he had at 23. Add to it that Colby was cost controlled for 3 more years, the cost to figure out if he was going to be a star or not wasn't much. We can't throw away cheap potential young stars while keeping the expensive Holliday's and Pujol's types. You can't throw all personalities into 1 bag and treat them all the same. There is also some residual from the Jockety to Luhnow regimes adding to the bitterness that has been shown Colby from not only the Cards mgmt, but from other players as well.

[billiken_roy]

can't argue Jay is outplaying him right now, but Colby is 24. Take a look at Matt Kemp last year and read a little about what was being said about him in LA. Colby certainly wasn't overhyped last year with the year he had at 23. Add to it that Colby was cost controlled for 3 more years, the cost to figure out if he was going to be a star or not wasn't much. We can't throw away cheap potential young stars while keeping the expensive Holliday's and Pujol's types. You can't throw all personalities into 1 bag and treat them all the same. There is also some residual from the Jockety to Luhnow regimes adding to the bitterness that has been shown Colby from not only the Cards mgmt, but from other players as well.

skip skip. dont mention rasmus in the same breath with matt kemp other than maybe to say "fans expected colby to be matt kemp by now".

kemp over the last five years has only had one season with a batting average under 290.

colby's best season is 276.

kemp has been averaging over 20 homeruns and 80 rbi for awhile now.

colby has one season of 20+ hr's and has never driven in more than 66 runs.

kemp has had double digit steal totals every year but his rookie season and most of the recent seasons have been very high.

colby has one season he stole 12 bases and has been single digits every other season.

if you want to find a veteran player to compare rasmus thus far, cory patterson actually is a pretty good comparison.

[jbizzle09]

I can't support Tony. Sorry just too pissed off to go into all the bs that is TLR right now but I'll give you a few. Brendan Ryan, Scott Rolen, Colby. There is not a doubt in the world that Tony plays favorites. It's his job to get the best out of players, I understand Colby was probably going to go ... but then TRL has to run his mouth and drive the value of Colby down. How about a line that says yes, Colby's slumping right now but he's got a world of talent and is working hard to break out of it. We really believe Colby is going to develop into an all-star centerfielder. Nope, we get Colby is slumping because he can't be coached. His ego and need to be right has hurt the team with Colby by reducing his value and forcing Mo to do something quickly. His remarks come after Colby has begun to break from his slump. Why? We went through the same thing with Brendan who it turns out is one of the top 10 - 12 shortstops in baseball. These guys are paid a ton of money to be able to be professional and work around personality conflicts for the good of the team and TLR is paid to manage them and facilitate that, not add fuel to the fire.

Matt Kemp was coming off of a Gold Glove and Silver Slugger season in 2009 when he slumped in 2010. And even though he was slumping that season, he still hit more homers than the previous season. He also did a lot more in his previous seasons than Colby had. Not really a fair comparison, as Kemp is definitely a more dynamic player that has utlizied his skills far more than Colby has.

[slufan13]

I'm tired of being patient with Colby. Just wish we would've traded him a year or 2 ago when a lot of people still thought he would be really good. I still think he can be an all-star but it wasn't going to happen in St. Louis. His value was higher a year or 2 ago, but I think it's a solid trade.

[billiken_roy]

who knows who and how good the players to be named later will be. maybe one of them is the next willie mcgee.

[slufanskip]

skip skip. dont mention rasmus in the same breath with matt kemp other than maybe to say "fans expected colby to be matt kemp by now".

kemp over the last five years has only had one season with a batting average under 290.

colby's best season is 276.

kemp has been averaging over 20 homeruns and 80 rbi for awhile now.

colby has one season of 20+ hr's and has never driven in more than 66 runs.

kemp has had double digit steal totals every year but his rookie season and most of the recent seasons have been very high.

colby has one season he stole 12 bases and has been single digits every other season.

if you want to find a veteran player to compare rasmus thus far, cory patterson actually is a pretty good comparison.

except that Kemp had a pretty poor year last year and the same things being said about Colby being lacksidaisical were being said about Kemp in LA.

Kemp had 2 part time years at 21 and 22. He had a very good year with an ops of .799 at 23 as a full time player. The following year he had a breakout year with an ops of .894 at 24. Then all of a sudden had an ops of .760 at 25. He still hit with power but he had a poor ba and an even worse obp because he wouldn't take a walk. He was called lazy and it was said he wouldn't listen, so there are some comparisons. Will he be Kemp? I don't know ... probably not, but he does still have the potential to be a top 5 centerfielder. Without looking it up I believe he was 1st or 2nd in centerfielders in ops last year at 23.

As a full time player

Kemp

age 23 ops .799

24 ops .842

25 ops .760

Rasmus

age 23 ops .859

age 24 ops .753

Kemp is almost 2 years older than Colby and had his slump in what would be his 3rd year of playing full time and we see he came through it alright. Colby is having his in his 2nd year ... will he come through alright, who knows, but we do know if he does it won't be as a Card. Could we have gotten less for him next year? Probably not unless he had a career ending injury. Kemp and Colby's careers parallel more than you think

[courtside]

skip skip. dont mention rasmus in the same breath with matt kemp other than maybe to say "fans expected colby to be matt kemp by now".

kemp over the last five years has only had one season with a batting average under 290.

colby's best season is 276.

kemp has been averaging over 20 homeruns and 80 rbi for awhile now.

colby has one season of 20+ hr's and has never driven in more than 66 runs.

kemp has had double digit steal totals every year but his rookie season and most of the recent seasons have been very high.

colby has one season he stole 12 bases and has been single digits every other season.

if you want to find a veteran player to compare rasmus thus far, cory patterson actually is a pretty good comparison.

Not interested in batting average or stolen bases as a barometer. If you had to pick one stat, mine is OPS. Let's take a look.

Patterson has a career OPS of .694 in 12 seasons. Rasmus already has a career OPS of 772 in just his 3rd season. Patterson has only reached that level once in the past seven years.

Kemp is in his 6th season, or twice as long as Rasmus. We'll see what Rasmus does when he plays twice as long. Kemp has OPS career avg of .832 in 6 seasons. It isn't about Kemp vs Rasmus etc...and Patterson of course is a bench throw in for temporary outfield roster depth.

Time will tell based on several factors when evaluating the trade, and not just those players in the trade.

I'll be interested to see if the lefty reliever becomes a future starter and if Jackson become a future reliever etc...or not...and what becomes of future picks.

This can help pitching and bullpen depth for this season.

Seeing what players do or don't do after they leave...will be about time.

[billiken_roy]

in kemp's "pretty poor year" he had more homers, stolen bases and rbi than rasmus last season which by far was colby's best season.

[slufanskip]

in kemp's "pretty poor year" he had more homers, stolen bases and rbi than rasmus last season which by far was colby's best season.

There is more to the game than home runs. OPS is a pretty good all around stat. I'd like to see Colby run more but I don't believe that choice is his. Take a look at how everyone's stolen base totals regress when they play for Tony.

[billiken_roy]

court, no disagreement that at this point in patterson's career he isnt a comparison anymore. but go back to 2002 when patterson became a starter through the next few seasons and cory's numbers are more similar to rasmus than what kemp's numbers are to rasmus.

no doubt at this point patterson is a throw in and will be a bench player and occasional weekend starter. no one believes patterson will be the cardinals full time centerfielder any more.

my only point was to say that kemp is no comparison and rasmus didnt deserve to be compared to kemp. at this point in his career, colby seems to be more on cory's career path. for colby's sake i hope that changes considering all the hype he came with.

[slufanskip]

court, no disagreement that at this point in patterson's career he isnt a comparison anymore. but go back to 2002 when patterson became a starter through the next few seasons and cory's numbers are more similar to rasmus than what kemp's numbers are to rasmus.

no doubt at this point patterson is a throw in and will be a bench player and occasional weekend starter. no one believes patterson will be the cardinals full time centerfielder any more.

my only point was to say that kemp is no comparison and rasmus didnt deserve to be compared to kemp. at this point in his career, colby seems to be more on cory's career path. for colby's sake i hope that changes considering all the hype he came with.

and last year people in LA thought Kemp was on Corey's path. Turns out he wasn't.