Kiel Auditorium photos on STLtoday

[sonoma bob]

We always parked in a lot a block east of Kiel. One night returning to our car (we were innocent, nieve, fuzzy faced suburban kids) a voice came down from above as we cut through the block of dark buildings across the street. " Hey got any cigarettes?" A string about 30 feet long was lowered to us from these barred windows several stories above us. I thought to myself, "That's a jail up there!" We never noticed it before or paid any attention to any of the other neighborhood buildings. We got scared and yanked the string down away from the inmate so he couldn't get a gun or something worse sent up to him after he got his smokes. Then we ran to our car and peeled out west on Market St. even though he was not going to be able to chase us, but cussed a blue streak that must have brought out any guards on duty that night.

The best players I saw come beat the Billikens at Kiel was the Big O from Cincy and the Lucas teams from Ohio State. I remember a Witchita State team where EVERY PLAYER dunked in the pre game warmups!! We beat them, but I was impressed and totally psyched out before the tip off by that high flying display when very few players could do that.

[MusicCityBilliken]

I don't know why the games were moved to The Checkerdome (Arena) for the 4 years of Ekker. Kiel was a much better home for the Billikens.

I believe that was a requirement to get into the Metro Conf.

I came to SLU in 70-71 when they played at the Arena. Recall the last game with Bradley when we won part of the MVC crown we drew 14,000. Even with that great crowd it seemed 1/2 empty.

Then we moved into the Old Kiel. What a great place to watch a game especially for the students. Get to the game early and you can get seat at 1st row center court. Also they had this plywood floor which you could really get the house rocking. Memorable games was Memphis game of the 72-73 season (the year Memphis went to the finals), Louisville game also that same year, Notre Dame game, also that same year, when Ghost Leonard sunk that last second shot to beat them, and many others.

One thing, SLU Athletic Dept never really maximized its potential. No band and just a few cheerleaders. They did very little to enhance the atmosphere. Subsequently, even with teams that were pretty good (especially 71-72 and 72-73 teams) many nights the crowds had been sparse.

Only went to the Opera House side once. That was in my freshman year to see Nina Simone.

[bonwich]

Back to Kiel, 1982:

St. Louis University announced a 27- game basketball schedule, a new tournament and a new home for the program at a news conference this morning. The Billikens will play all 14 home games at Kiel Auditorium, moving back to the downtown building from the Checkerdome. They last played in Kiel in the 1977-78 season.

The home schedule will include contests with Memphis State on Dec. 1, Oklahoma State on Dec. 11 and Indiana State on Jan. 3, as well as the first Budweiser Classic Dec. 28-29. The three other tournament teams are the University of California, Southern Illinois University-Edwardsville and East Tennessee State.

This will be the Billikens' first season in the Midwestern City Conference, after dropping out of the Metro Conference. Because the National Collegeiate Athletic Association has placed St. Louis U. on probation for one year in basketball, the Billikens will be ineligible for postseason play in the eight-team MCC but will be eligible for the regular- season conference championship.

Rich Grawer, the Bills' new coach, said the return to Kiel from the larger Checkerdome was 'the wisest move we could make. '

'It gives us an edge that we didn't have before, 'he added, 'and in this business you need every edge you can get. '

Particularly when the Bills' road schedule is considered. They'll play six games in 17 days beginning Dec. 4 and five of those will be away from home against Kansas, Vanderbilt, Valparaiso, Alabama-Birmingham and Bradley, the National Invitation Tournament champion.

The Bills will play home-and-home series with the seven other members of the MCC: Butler, Detroit, Evansville, Loyola of Chicago, Oral Roberts, Oklahoma City and Xavier of Cincinnati.

'We look at our overall schedule as being as tough as any in the country, 'said Grawer. 'When you stop to think that Bradley, Alabama-Birmingham, Memphis State, Evansville and Oral Roberts were all in postseason tournaments last season, it is obviously a tough schedule. '

[kwyjibo]

Back to Kiel, 1982:

The first big home game was the Andre Craig versus All-American Keith Lee game where Andre played pretty well. Bills lost but were respectable. I looked this up because I remembered Memphis State had other good players and they had a young (one of my all time favorite basketball and sleuthing names) Baskerville Holmes on the team

[Pistol]

Can anyone list the arenas SLU played in by years? I had no idea there was so much moving around until this thread.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Can anyone list the arenas SLU played in by years? I had no idea there was so much moving around until this thread.

I'll take a shot, but will need some help from my elders on this board re specifics of before my time at SLU. My first Billiken game was at Kiel Auditorium in the 1977-78 season when I was visiting SLU as a high school Senior.

In the pre-WW II days, I believe the Billikens played at West Pine Gym.

After WW II, my understanding is that Kiel Auditorium was the primary home of SLU basketball.

I remember seeing a picture from the 1970-71 season. SLU was playing an Ivy League school (by memory I thought it was Yale, but the records show it must have been Harvard) at The St. Louis Arena. I know in at least some of the Bob Polk years, SLU played at The Arena. Then at some point in the '70's, SLU returned to Kiel Auditorium. I remember watching a TV game from the 1976-77 season, in which SLU beat DePaul at Kiel Auditorium during an ice storm outside with very few fans able to trek to the game. So I know SLU played at Kiel Auditorium under Randy Albrecht, and the one season (1977-78) under Ron Coleman.

Then during my 4 undergraduate years at SLU, SLU was back at what was then known as The Checkerdome (the name for The Arena when Ralston Purina owned the building and the Blues). That accounts for the Ekker Era, 1978-79 through the 1981-82 seasons.

When Rich Grawer took over, the SLU games returned to Kiel Auditorium, which was truly the Billikens' home court. That accounts for the 1982-83 through 1990-91 seasons. And there were two memorable games in my 3rd Year at SLU Law School, early in the 1984-85 season, at West Pine Gym. These were midweek afternoon games against Blackburn College and Greenville College, games in which Coach Grawer was trying to drum up some student support on campus.

Kiel Auditorium closed after the 1991 season, and SLU returned to The Arena for Rich Grawer's last season of 1991-92 and stayed through the beginnings of Spoonball. I was at the memorable SIU game in the 1993-94 season, when they pulled the tarps off the seats in the rafters on the north side. That game drew over 17,000 people, and I could barely believe what I was seeing.

The Arena was then closed, and SLU played at the new Kiel Center (later known as Savvis Center and now Scottrade Center), built on the site of the former Kiel Auditorium, beginning with the 1994-95 season and through the 2007-08 season.

From the 2008-2009 season to the present, the Billikens have played in the new on campus Chaifetz Arena.

[bonwich]

One of the first seasons I attended games ('67-8 or '68-9), I remember seeing Joe Wiley, Jimmy Irving and perhaps Tom Thomas at the Arena. I can also remember going to a Hawks game at Kiel in about 1966, but I can't reconcile when we stopped going to the Arena and started going to Kiel. I can remember that the students had the two center courtside sections at Kiel for some period of time -- I'm guessing early '70s, because they used to do the Woodstock rain dance song, so it had to be after '69. It seems like the (a?) Notre Dame game was at Kiel.

[Pistol]

I'll take a shot, but will need some help from my elders on this board re specifics of before my time at SLU. My first Billiken game was at Kiel Auditorium in the 1977-78 season when I was visiting SLU as a high school Senior.

In the pre-WW II days, I believe the Billikens played at West Pine Gym.

After WW II, my understanding is that Kiel Auditorium was the primary home of SLU basketball.

I remember seeing a picture from the 1970-71 season. SLU was playing an Ivy League school (by memory I thought it was Yale, but the records show it must have been Harvard) at The St. Louis Arena. I know in at least some of the Bob Polk years, SLU played at The Arena. Then at some point in the '70's, SLU returned to Kiel Auditorium. I remember watching a TV game from the 1976-77 season, in which SLU beat DePaul at Kiel Auditorium during an ice storm outside with very few fans able to trek to the game. So I know SLU played at Kiel Auditorium under Randy Albrecht, and the one season (1977-78) under Ron Coleman.

Then during my 4 undergraduate years at SLU, SLU was back at what was then known as The Checkerdome (the name for The Arena when Ralston Purina owned the building and the Blues). That accounts for the Ekker Era, 1978-79 through the 1981-82 seasons.

When Rich Grawer took over, the SLU games returned to Kiel Auditorium, which was truly the Billikens' home court. That accounts for the 1982-83 through 1990-91 seasons. And there were two memorable games in my 3rd Year at SLU Law School, early in the 1984-85 season, at West Pine Gym. These were midweek afternoon games against Blackburn College and Greenville College, games in which Coach Grawer was trying to drum up some student support on campus.

Kiel Auditorium closed after the 1991 season, and SLU returned to The Arena for Rich Grawer's last season of 1991-92 and stayed through the beginnings of Spoonball. I was at the memorable SIU game in the 1993-94 season, when they pulled the tarps off the seats in the rafters on the north side. That game drew over 17,000 people, and I could barely believe what I was seeing.

The Arena was then closed, and SLU played at the new Kiel Center (later known as Savvis Center and now Scottrade Center), built on the site of the former Kiel Auditorium, beginning with the 1994-95 season and through the 2007-08 season.

From the 2008-2009 season to the present, the Billikens have played in the new on campus Chaifetz Arena.

Thanks! Well done.

I also just found verification on page 147 of the media guide (and probably should have looked harder before I asked):

1920-1926: 1st Regiment Armory

1926-1945: West Pine Gym

1945-1968: Kiel Auditorium

1968-1973: St. Louis Arena

1973-1978: Kiel Auditorium

1978-1982: St. Louis Arena (Checkerdome)

1982-1991: Kiel Auditorium

1991-1994: St. Louis Arena

1994-2008: Kiel/Savvis/Scottrade Center

2008-Present: Chaifetz Arena

All that bouncing around shows how nice it is to now own instead of rent.

The media guide did not list any home venues for 1915-1920. Additionally, the TW/Edward Jones Dome was a 'home' venue for a single game in each of the 1997-1998, 1998-1999, and 1999-2000 seasons, in which we went 2-1, and the St. Charles Family Arena was a home venue for 1 game in 2003-2004 and 2 games in 2005-2006, in which we went 3-0.

This is all news to me, as I knew we played in the Arena and Kiel for all those years but didn't realize it was 3 spells at each. I didn't really start going to SLU games until the early-to-mid 1990s. I have no memory of seeing a game at Kiel Auditorium but in my defense it appears to have been torn down when I was 8.

[Bay Area Billiken]

One of the first seasons I attended games ('67-8 or '68-9), I remember seeing Joe Wiley, Jimmy Irving and perhaps Tom Thomas at the Arena. I can also remember going to a Hawks game at Kiel in about 1966, but I can't reconcile when we stopped going to the Arena and started going to Kiel. I can remember that the students had the two center courtside sections at Kiel for some period of time -- I'm guessing early '70s, because they used to do the Woodstock rain dance song, so it had to be after '69. It seems like the (a?) Notre Dame game was at Kiel.

Yes, I've read about Austin Carr and Notre Dame having to run down the ramp through the SLU students at the Kiel Auditorium. So the famous Notre Dame game must have been at the Old Kiel.

When I saw SLU play at Kiel Auditorium, the official student seats were on the stage (north) end.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Thank you. At the TWA Dome, SLU beat Illinois in the Larry Hughes year, lost to Kansas State (I was at that one), and beat Mizzou on a Sunday afternoon in Lorenzo Romar and Quin Snyder's first years (I was at that one too).

The Anthony Drejaj buzzer beater in the NIT against Iowa was at St. Charles Family Arena, amidst the trapezoid lanes, all those lines, and the big bumble bee at midcourt (for the St. Louis Swarm). SLU also beat UMass in an A-10 game at Family Arena. I don't remember the third opponent.

Personally, other than SLU's new Chaifetz Arena, of course, I liked Kiel Auditorium. It was just about the right size and seemed to be built more for basketball, as opposed to hockey. Kiel Auditorium was the home venue in which Rich Grawer literally resurrected SLU Basketball.

As Bonwich notes, Kiel Auditorium was the home of the St. Louis Hawks of the NBA, who moved to Atlanta after the 1968 season. And the Hawks had a really good team when they were in St. Louis. In the '60's they had players such as Zelmo Beaty, Lenny Wilkins, Lou Hudson, Jumpin' Joe Caldwell. Before that, when they won the NBA title in 1958, they had Hall of Famer Bob Pettit. And SLU's own Hall of Famer, Easy Ed Macauley played for the Hawks.

The Spirits of St. Louis of the ABA played at The Arena in the 1970's, players including Movin' Marvin Barnes, Maurice Lucas, Freddie Lewis, James "Fly" Williams, Gus Girard, and even a young Moses Malone at the end. Young Bob Costas was the Spirits' radio and TV announcer.

[willie]

One of the first seasons I attended games ('67-8 or '68-9), I remember seeing Joe Wiley, Jimmy Irving and perhaps Tom Thomas at the Arena. I can also remember going to a Hawks game at Kiel in about 1966, but I can't reconcile when we stopped going to the Arena and started going to Kiel. I can remember that the students had the two center courtside sections at Kiel for some period of time -- I'm guessing early '70s, because they used to do the Woodstock rain dance song, so it had to be after '69. It seems like the (a?) Notre Dame game was at Kiel.

I do not think Thomas and Irving played together. Yes students had about half the courtside seats. Frats had sections and it was definitely the thing to do.

[willie]

Y memory says this game was played at the arenam

Yes, I've read about Austin Carr and Notre Dame having to run down the ramp through the SLU students at the Kiel Auditorium. So the famous Notre Dame game must have been at the Old Kiel.

When I saw SLU play at Kiel Auditorium, the official student seats were on the stage (north) end.

My memory says this game was played at the arena but I admit I have killed a lot of cells over the years.

[AGB91]

Thank you. At the TWA Dome, SLU beat Illinois in the Larry Hughes year, lost to Kansas State (I was at that one), and beat Mizzou on a Sunday afternoon in Lorenzo Romar and Quin Snyder's first years (I was at that one too).

The Anthony Drejaj buzzer beater in the NIT against Iowa was at St. Charles Family Arena, amidst the trapezoid lanes, all those lines, and the big bumble bee at midcourt (for the St. Louis Swarm). SLU also beat UMass in an A-10 game at Family Arena. I don't remember the third opponent.

Personally, other than SLU's new Chaifetz Arena, of course, I liked Kiel Auditorium. It was just about the right size and seemed to be built more for basketball, as opposed to hockey. Kiel Auditorium was the home venue in which Rich Grawer literally resurrected SLU Basketball.

As Bonwich notes, Kiel Auditorium was the home of the St. Louis Hawks of the NBA, who moved to Atlanta after the 1968 season. And the Hawks had a really good team when they were in St. Louis. In the '60's they had players such as Zelmo Beaty, Lenny Wilkins, Lou Hudson, Jumpin' Joe Caldwell. Before that, when they won the NBA title in 1958, they had Hall of Famer Bob Pettit. And SLU's own Hall of Famer, Easy Ed Macauley played for the Hawks.

The Spirits of St. Louis of the ABA played at The Arena in the 1970's, players including Movin' Marvin Barnes, Maurice Lucas, Freddie Lewis, James "Fly" Williams, Gus Girard, and even a young Moses Malone at the end. Young Bob Costas was the Spirits' radio and TV announcer.

[AGB91]

Thank you. At the TWA Dome, SLU beat Illinois in the Larry Hughes year, lost to Kansas State (I was at that one), and beat Mizzou on a Sunday afternoon in Lorenzo Romar and Quin Snyder's first years (I was at that one too).

The Anthony Drejaj buzzer beater in the NIT against Iowa was at St. Charles Family Arena, amidst the trapezoid lanes, all those lines, and the big bumble bee at midcourt (for the St. Louis Swarm). SLU also beat UMass in an A-10 game at Family Arena. I don't remember the third opponent.

Personally, other than SLU's new Chaifetz Arena, of course, I liked Kiel Auditorium. It was just about the right size and seemed to be built more for basketball, as opposed to hockey. Kiel Auditorium was the home venue in which Rich Grawer literally resurrected SLU Basketball.

As Bonwich notes, Kiel Auditorium was the home of the St. Louis Hawks of the NBA, who moved to Atlanta after the 1968 season. And the Hawks had a really good team when they were in St. Louis. In the '60's they had players such as Zelmo Beaty, Lenny Wilkins, Lou Hudson, Jumpin' Joe Caldwell. Before that, when they won the NBA title in 1958, they had Hall of Famer Bob Pettit. And SLU's own Hall of Famer, Easy Ed Macauley played for the Hawks.

The Spirits of St. Louis of the ABA played at The Arena in the 1970's, players including Movin' Marvin Barnes, Maurice Lucas, Freddie Lewis, James "Fly" Williams, Gus Girard, and even a young Moses Malone at the end. Young Bob Costas was the Spirits' radio and TV announcer.

The other game at the Family Arena was Eastern Illinois.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Thanks! Well done.

I also just found verification on page 147 of the media guide (and probably should have looked harder before I asked):

1920-1926: 1st Regiment Armory

1926-1945: West Pine Gym

1945-1968: Kiel Auditorium

1968-1973: St. Louis Arena

1973-1978: Kiel Auditorium

1978-1982: St. Louis Arena (Checkerdome)

1982-1991: Kiel Auditorium

1991-1994: St. Louis Arena

1994-2008: Kiel/Savvis/Scottrade Center

2008-Present: Chaifetz Arena

All that bouncing around shows how nice it is to now own instead of rent.

The media guide did not list any home venues for 1915-1920. Additionally, the TW/Edward Jones Dome was a 'home' venue for a single game in each of the 1997-1998, 1998-1999, and 1999-2000 seasons, in which we went 2-1, and the St. Charles Family Arena was a home venue for 1 game in 2003-2004 and 2 games in 2005-2006, in which we went 3-0.

This is all news to me, as I knew we played in the Arena and Kiel for all those years but didn't realize it was 3 spells at each. I didn't really start going to SLU games until the early-to-mid 1990s. I have no memory of seeing a game at Kiel Auditorium but in my defense it appears to have been torn down when I was 8.

Went to the Kiel for the 71-72 season. That was my sophomore year at SLU.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Yes, I've read about Austin Carr and Notre Dame having to run down the ramp through the SLU students at the Kiel Auditorium. So the famous Notre Dame game must have been at the Old Kiel.

When I saw SLU play at Kiel Auditorium, the official student seats were on the stage (north) end.

It was at the Arena during the 70-71 season. Carr's senior season. Game ended with Carr sinking a buzzer beater. Real heart breaker. I was at that game and I believe SLU72 was in attendance also.

[Box and Won]

I'm loving these Kiel stories. Keep 'em coming!

[sonoma bob]

Another good Kiel story Box. The late 50's, early 60's Hawks beat everybody in the NBA except the Celtics who won like 10 straight championships. The Hawks fans hated them, especially when Red Auerbach would light up a cigar with a few minutes left to say sorry fans, this game is over. One of my friends threw a fresh egg at their bench from the TOP ROW of the balcony and hit Red !!! What a great shot. It was so smoky up there no one could see who did it. We laid low instead of high fiveing him ( oh yeah, that wasn't even invented yet ) so we wouldn't get busted and end up spending the night on the third floor across the street.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Y memory says this game was played at the arenam

My memory says this game was played at the arena but I admit I have killed a lot of cells over the years.

Yes, the ND game must have been at The Arena based upon when Austin Carr played at ND and when SLU played at The Arena, per Pistol's post. It was before my time growing up up River in Quincy.

I remember as a kid when SLU played a big playoff game as part of an MVC Tiebreaker at Roberston Fieldhouse in Peoria (Bradley's home court then) against Louisville.

I also remember reading about the SLU team in Street & Smith's, guys like Harry Rogers, Rich Stallworth, and Carlos Martinez. SLU had a good team then under Bob Polk. Harry Rogers returned for a time as an assistant under Ekker. I remember talking to him near the elevator at Griesedieck Hall. Harry told me, "The Bills are back. So back the Bills."

My early memories of SLU Basketball were the old Missouri Valley Conference Game of the Week that came on at 12:30 p.m. on Saturday afternoons, with Easy Ed Macauley as the TV analyst.

The original Alumni Trumpeteers were well before my time. But Coach Grawer brought them back at the Old Kiel. They would play during the game itself as SLU would bring the ball up the court, and they would play a short toon when SLU scored a basket. Those guys wore Columbia blue and white beanie hats.

When we were at SLU, Grawer was able to get West Pine Gym painted, and he brought back the old Missouri Valley Conference banners to put up in West Pine Gym, teams like Wichita State, Tulsa, et al. SLU was in the MCC then, not the Valley, but Grawer still had the old MVC banners up there.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Another good Kiel story Box. The late 50's, early 60's Hawks beat everybody in the NBA except the Celtics who won like 10 straight championships. The Hawks fans hated them, especially when Red Auerbach would light up a cigar with a few minutes left to say sorry fans, this game is over. One of my friends threw a fresh egg at their bench from the TOP ROW of the balcony and hit Red !!! What a great shot. It was so smoky up there no one could see who did it. We laid low instead of high fiveing him ( oh yeah, that wasn't even invented yet ) so we wouldn't get busted and end up spending the night on the third floor across the street.

Hi, Bob. It's good to read your posts again. Have you thought about getting down to Anaheim when SLU plays in that tournament early next season? I think it is over Thanksgiving.

Several more things I remember about the Old Kiel:

1. The City Workhouse was across the street. You would walk out and sometimes get some "greetings" from the men over there.

2. In the early days of Coach Grawer, the upper deck (balcony) at the Old Kiel was often empty. They still had old wooden seats up there. There were newer and spacious (by today's standards) plastic seats in the permanent part of the lower deck. And then I recall folding chairs were placed in front of those plastic seats. We often sat in those permanent plastic seats on the West side, across from the team benches, excellent seats with good sight lines to watch a basketball game.

3. In later years under Coach Grawer, the SLU crowds were much bigger, doubled. My Uncle and I sat upstairs for a memorable SLU win on a Saturday night over Colorado with Anthony Bonner leading the Billikens to victory.

At the Checkerdome under Ekker, we still talk about the season ticket holder that sat across from the opponent's bench and once tossed some change on the court. You could hear the coins bouncing on the hardwood floor. Obviously, that wasn't the best way to show dissent to the zebras.

My roommate and I refused to leave Ekker's office our Senior year until he let us restore the Billiken mascot. The Billiken head sat in our dorm room on 6G most of that year. We reintroduced the Billiken at the Bronze Boot Soccer game at Busch Stadium II against SIUE. We dressed him in an old SLU hockey jersey for that one, as I remembered the Billiken used to skate and lead the Billikens out onto the ice my freshman year. Then once basketball season started, we were able to get a tuxedo rental company to donate a tux in exchage for free advertising. The Billiken returned wearing a tuxedo and sneakers. The Post-Dispatch basketball scribe, Dave Dorr, wrote an article about the return of "The Head."

[Box and Won]

Another good Kiel story Box. The late 50's, early 60's Hawks beat everybody in the NBA except the Celtics who won like 10 straight championships. The Hawks fans hated them, especially when Red Auerbach would light up a cigar with a few minutes left to say sorry fans, this game is over. One of my friends threw a fresh egg at their bench from the TOP ROW of the balcony and hit Red !!! What a great shot. It was so smoky up there no one could see who did it. We laid low instead of high fiveing him ( oh yeah, that wasn't even invented yet ) so we wouldn't get busted and end up spending the night on the third floor across the street.

Ha, I love it - that is great!

BTW, I was lucky enough to enjoy a few beverages at the Swiss Hotel in Sonoma fairly recently - great place.

[bills16]

When the Missouri Valley brought the conference tournament to St. Louis,

the first year was played at Kiel Auditorium. 1991.

Creighton was the winner that year led by Bob Harstad and coached by

Tony Barone.

[bonwich]

I do not think Thomas and Irving played together. Yes students had about half the courtside seats. Frats had sections and it was definitely the thing to do.

'68-'69. Irving sophomore, Wiley junior, Thomas senior. (I did have to look it up, however.)

BTW, wasn't Tom Thomas subsequently busted for pot possession? I just remember that seeming odd because he came across as such an Andy Hardy.

[brianstl]

If you never got a chance to see a game at Kiel you really missed out.

Still have never been in a louder building than the Kiel was for a double overtime loss in the NIT against S. Miss as a kid. It was like being at a rock concert. My hearing was messed up for a couple days.

It was, also, probably the best played basketball game I have ever attended. Weatherspoon vs. Bonner. Southern went on to win the NIT.

[bonwich]

Went to the Kiel for the 71-72 season. That was my sophomore year at SLU.

That seems to contradict Pistol's chronology, but it might account for why I think I saw Notre Dame at Kiel. There were actually three Notre Dame games -- '68-9, '70-1 and '72-3 (which we won).

I also wonder if there were one or more years that we played at both places for at least 1-2 games. Geezo, that's 40 years ago, and I'm lucky now if I can remember where I parked.