Disappointed

[courtside]

You completely missed the point of my original post. Soccer, basketball, politics, it doesn't matter, a bias is a bias and you have certain biases that underlie certain of your arguments/comments. I pointed out one with respect to "danny". That doesn't mean you don't have certain objective facts to point to, but I do question what drives your argument. Is it the personal affinity you have for DD or the objective facts?

And I see you're still unwilling to acknowledge that valid criticisms of RM exist (could this be your bias in favor of Majerus that prevents you from acknowledging that he could be doing a better job too?).

Really? Are you serious? Because I called someone Danny instead of Dan in a post I have a bias of some sort? Wow. Unbelievable. Did I have a bias when I called SLU's basketball coach "Brad," or "Rick?" Do I have a bias when I post Jackie Jewsbury instead of Jack? How about Timmy Leonard? Wow. That's pretty funny and pretty far-fetched conspriacy theory. You've been watching too many Oliver Stone movies perhaps?

If you are uncertain if my evaluations are derived from objective fact, or personal affinity, why not simply evaluate my posts for their content as it relates to the discussion or debate? You have the access to read them and they speak for themselves.

When did I say I was unwilling to acknowledge valid criticisms of RM? I didn't.

[billiken_roy]

so courtside, you dont expect any better performance from rickma after 2 seasons than soderberg after 2 seasons even though rickma has hall of fame credentials and has all the advantages that soderberg and romar didnt.

got it. that is why you are so objective compared to me.

[moytoy12]

Really? Are you serious? Because I called someone Danny instead of Dan in a post I have a bias of some sort? Wow. Unbelievable. Did I have a bias when I called SLU's basketball coach "Brad," or "Rick?" Do I have a bias when I post Jackie Jewsbury instead of Jack? How about Timmy Leonard? Wow. That's pretty funny and pretty far-fetched conspriacy theory. You've been watching too many Oliver Stone movies perhaps?

If you are uncertain if my evaluations are derived from objective fact, or personal affinity, why not simply evaluate my posts for their content as it relates to the discussion or debate? You have the access to read them and they speak for themselves.

When did I say I was unwilling to acknowledge valid criticisms of RM? I didn't.

No, "danny" was meant to signify the obvious personal affection you have for him, which is obvious from your past posts. It isn't just because you called him "danny". But I see you can't help but start personal attacks (ala the OU-Texas debate where you misquoted me and then insulted me). It seems the latter is a pattern with you, but I digress.

You know, you and I are both intelligent enough to probably argue almost any side of a proposition and we could use objective facts to support our argument. I think you bring up some decent points about Donigan, but I think your overall view is heavily colored by your personal affinity, thus, you assert facts to support your bias.

I haven't seen you acknowledge any valid criticisms of RM, until you do, why would I think that you are willing to acknowledge them? Are there any in your mind? While building a program for the long-term, RM is not without fault in the short-term. Any time anyone brings this up, you make excuses for RM.

[kmbilliken]

so courtside, you dont expect any better performance from rickma after 2 seasons than soderberg after 2 seasons even though rickma has hall of fame credentials and has all the advantages that soderberg and romar didnt.

got it. that is why you are so objective compared to me.

Those advantages predominantly pay off in recruiting and he is recruiting better than any coach we've ever had. His recruits are only freshman. Before him we hadn't had a decent recruit since the Lisch/Liddell year. If the team is still playing like this in two years, we'll all be disappointed. Until then I see 5 freshman who all have potential to contribute and it sounds like there's another 5 on the way plus Femi. Thats progress, but it won't translate into wins for a couple of years.

[courtside]

Those advantages predominantly pay off in recruiting and he is recruiting better than any coach we've ever had. His recruits are only freshman. Before him we hadn't had a decent recruit since the Lisch/Liddell year. If the team is still playing like this in two years, we'll all be disappointed. Until then I see 5 freshman who all have potential to contribute and it sounds like there's another 5 on the way plus Femi. Thats progress, but it won't translate into wins for a couple of years.

Apparently that is too difficult for some to understand, or some are rooting for it to not happen.

[SShoe]

so courtside, you dont expect any better performance from rickma after 2 seasons than soderberg after 2 seasons even though rickma has hall of fame credentials and has all the advantages that soderberg and romar didnt.

got it. that is why you are so objective compared to me.

While Brad didn't exactly inherit a cabinet fully stockpiled with top-tier talent, Rick came in and found a couple boxes of mac n' cheese and some month old crackers, so I don't particularly think you can compare the first two years of the Soderberg regime to the first two years of the Majerus regime.

[courtside]

No, "danny" was meant to signify the obvious personal affection you have for him, which is obvious from your past posts. It isn't just because you called him "danny". But I see you can't help but start personal attacks (ala the OU-Texas debate where you misquoted me and then insulted me). It seems the latter is a pattern with you, but I digress.

You know, you and I are both intelligent enough to probably argue almost any side of a proposition and we could use objective facts to support our argument. I think you bring up some decent points about Donigan, but I think your overall view is heavily colored by your personal affinity, thus, you assert facts to support your bias.

I haven't seen you acknowledge any valid criticisms of RM, until you do, why would I think that you are willing to acknowledge them? Are there any in your mind? While building a program for the long-term, RM is not without fault in the short-term. Any time anyone brings this up, you make excuses for RM.

Let's see I have had personal affinity towards Joey Clarke, omg I didn't say "Joe," oh the horror, or should I say bias? ....as well as Rich Grawer, Charlie Spoonhour, Lorenzo Romar, Brad Soderberg, etc...personal affinity doesn't have anything to do with objective evaluation.

I didn't instigate any personal attack on you.

But what you don't do is show or link the posts and threads over the course of many years when it comes to say Donigan or the program. You pick and choose rather than give a full report. And that's incomplete at best.

Perhaps I'm just not as negative as other posters? Perhaps you don't like my posts, most of which are centered on emotionless objectivity when it comes to evaluation.

I can promise you, that you haven't, nor you won't see me publicly bash any of SLU's coaches past or present. I am however capable of objectively critiquing performance.

[moytoy12]

Let's see I have had personal affinity towards Joey Clarke, omg I didn't say "Joe," oh the horror, or should I say bias? ....as well as Rich Grawer, Charlie Spoonhour, Lorenzo Romar, Brad Soderberg, etc...personal affinity doesn't have anything to do with objective evaluation.

I didn't instigate any personal attack on you.

But what you don't do is show or link the posts and threads over the course of many years when it comes to say Donigan or the program. You pick and choose rather than give a full report. And that's incomplete at best.

Perhaps I'm just not as negative as other posters? Perhaps you don't like my posts, most of which are centered on emotionless objectivity when it comes to evaluation.

I can promise you, that you haven't, nor you won't see me publicly bash any of SLU's coaches past or present. I am however capable of objectively critiquing performance.

Your childish shots at me don't impress me much. In my opinion, your posts re: DD show an obvious bias. I don't really care to go look up old posts. Others can look them up and make up their own mind. If you want to prove me wrong, feel free to link all your DD related posts and let people decided.

If you think your personal like for DD and RM doesn't create a bias, then there is no need arguing. You are delusional. You apparently don't realize that your subjective thoughts/interactions influence your "objective" opinions.

You won't publicly bash any of SLU's coaches? That's fine, I'm not asking you to bash anyone. I'm asking you to acknowledge that RM deserves some criticism for his work over the first year and a half. You have yet to agree with that. If you can't distinguish between "bashing" and "criticizing", that's a "you" problem.

[moytoy12]

Apparently that is too difficult for some to understand, or some are rooting for it to not happen.

And it's apparently too difficult for some to acknowledge that RM deserves some criticism for how he's performed over the last year and a half.

[courtside]

Your childish shots at me don't impress me much. In my opinion, your posts re: DD show an obvious bias. I don't really care to go look up old posts. Others can look them up and make up their own mind. If you want to prove me wrong, feel free to link all your DD related posts and let people decided.

If you think your personal like for DD and RM doesn't create a bias, then there is no need arguing. You are delusional. You apparently don't realize that your subjective thoughts/interactions influence your "objective" opinions.

You won't publicly bash any of SLU's coaches? That's fine, I'm not asking you to bash anyone. I'm asking you to acknowledge that RM deserves some criticism for his work over the first year and a half. You have yet to agree with that. If you can't distinguish between "bashing" and "criticizing", that's a "you" problem.

I'm not the one with the accusation, so it is your responsibility to link evidence to support your opinion, not mine. I've already given my opinions. It's your responsibility to show where bias has interfered with my objectivity, and where I have not given an opinion on the subject objectively. So far, a reference to a post or posts where I apparently used the name "Danny," instead of "Dan," is all that you care to present. And, I answered that.

You disclude my personal like for Brad Soderberg, Joey Clarke, and more. DD and RM are the examples you give because they better fit your position of criticizing them and saying that because I do not bash them on here that I am biased in my professional critique of their work.

I've criticized SLU coaches, players, etc...and pointed out successess and positives where warranted also.

You seem to want me to go back and change my past opinion that Donigan had earned his position and through accomplishment and success and program direction, he imo should have been able to keep that position. This was well laid out with myself, Skip, Sluballs, etc...different seasons. It's all out there.

As for Majerus, I do not believe he is above criticism. I have never said otherwise.

One of the big reoccurring topics here is that some people expected more at this point than what they are getting. I am not exactly sure what they expected.

It's very challenging to be successful or even competitive on the road with the current makeup of SLU's team. SLU has lost two home games, and one was without their only point guard, in a game they could have possibly won with him in the lineup.

I don't get caught up in hammering coaches, especially when they haven't completed two seasons. And, Majerus was hired very late.

You don't want to post that I like Brad Soderberg the person, but at the time of his dismissal, I wasn't opposed to it because it doesn't fit your theory that I let personal bias interfere with my posting. Evidence has shown otherwise.

[TheChosenOne]

I'm not the one with the accusation, so it is your responsibility to link evidence to support your opinion, not mine. I've already given my opinions. It's your responsibility to show where bias has interfered with my objectivity, and where I have not given an opinion on the subject objectively. So far, a reference to a post or posts where I apparently used the name "Danny," instead of "Dan," is all that you care to present. And, I answered that.

You disclude my personal like for Brad Soderberg, Joey Clarke, and more. DD and RM are the examples you give because they better fit your position of criticizing them and saying that because I do not bash them on here that I am biased in my professional critique of their work.

I've criticized SLU coaches, players, etc...and pointed out successess and positives where warranted also.

You seem to want me to go back and change my past opinion that Donigan had earned his position and through accomplishment and success and program direction, he imo should have been able to keep that position. This was well laid out with myself, Skip, Sluballs, etc...different seasons. It's all out there.

As for Majerus, I do not believe he is above criticism. I have never said otherwise.

One of the big reoccurring topics here is that some people expected more at this point than what they are getting. I am not exactly sure what they expected.

It's very challenging to be successful or even competitive on the road with the current makeup of SLU's team. SLU has lost two home games, and one was without their only point guard, in a game they could have possibly won with him in the lineup.

I don't get caught up in hammering coaches, especially when they haven't completed two seasons. And, Majerus was hired very late.

You don't want to post that I like Brad Soderberg the person, but at the time of his dismissal, I wasn't opposed to it because it doesn't fit your theory that I let personal bias interfere with my posting. Evidence has shown otherwise.

Courtside, did you get a pink slip in the mail box at work on Monday? What is with all of these ridiculously long and obnoxious posts? I am sure Rick would hire you to put his shoes and socks on for him.

[moytoy12]

I'm not the one with the accusation, so it is your responsibility to link evidence to support your opinion, not mine. I've already given my opinions. It's your responsibility to show where bias has interfered with my objectivity, and where I have not given an opinion on the subject objectively. So far, a reference to a post or posts where I apparently used the name "Danny," instead of "Dan," is all that you care to present. And, I answered that.

You disclude my personal like for Brad Soderberg, Joey Clarke, and more. DD and RM are the examples you give because they better fit your position of criticizing them and saying that because I do not bash them on here that I am biased in my professional critique of their work.

I've criticized SLU coaches, players, etc...and pointed out successess and positives where warranted also.

You seem to want me to go back and change my past opinion that Donigan had earned his position and through accomplishment and success and program direction, he imo should have been able to keep that position. This was well laid out with myself, Skip, Sluballs, etc...different seasons. It's all out there.

As for Majerus, I do not believe he is above criticism. I have never said otherwise.

One of the big reoccurring topics here is that some people expected more at this point than what they are getting. I am not exactly sure what they expected.

It's very challenging to be successful or even competitive on the road with the current makeup of SLU's team. SLU has lost two home games, and one was without their only point guard, in a game they could have possibly won with him in the lineup.

I don't get caught up in hammering coaches, especially when they haven't completed two seasons. And, Majerus was hired very late.

You don't want to post that I like Brad Soderberg the person, but at the time of his dismissal, I wasn't opposed to it because it doesn't fit your theory that I let personal bias interfere with my posting. Evidence has shown otherwise.

Essentially, you accused Roy of allowing his negative bias to drive his opinions re: RM. . "Danny" was an example of where your bias has come into play in my opinion. Hence, the "e.g." I don't need every example where you have talked about a coach, I only need to raise one where it is fairly obvious that your subjective feelings has clouded your "objective" judgment. Soderberg, Joey, Jesus...they're irrelevant to this discussion.

You're a piece of work and obviously misunderstanding point after point. I'm not here to rehash the DD discussion.

Now, back to the current team. You said you don't believe RM is above criticism. Are you just saying that in general? If so, how insightful.

Ok, let's try again. Do you believe there are things he could rightly be criticized for in his first year and a half? I don't need examples. You don't need to "bash" a coach. It's simple enough, that I didn't think I'd have to ask you the question numerous times. Heck, forget DD, it's becoming obvious that your personal bias favoring RM is not allowing you to answer a simple question.

Keep up the good fight Mr. I Am Always Objective and Never Allow Subjective Feelings to Influence My Opinion.

[blinkybill]

Obviously a lot of you guys have been following SLU Basketball for a number of years ,i would like to know if anybody has a answer to my question .

When was the last time that SLU has had so many Freshman and only 2 Seniors in the one team ? , and how did they perform in that season ?, if question 1 applies .

[cheesycow]

Methinks season 3 is the better one to judge Tubby Majerus.

[GoBills]

Obviously a lot of you guys have been following SLU Basketball for a number of years ,i would like to know if anybody has a answer to my question .

When was the last time that SLU has had so many Freshman and only 2 Seniors in the one team ? , and how did they perform in that season ?, if question 1 applies .

I can't recall a roster make-up like this one. I referenced a season earlier, which happened in the early 1990's, Coach Grawer's last year when the Bills had a lot of freshmen - Ryan Gran, Julian Winfield, Erwin Claggett and Scott Highmark. That bunch had very little leadership from the upperclassmen and the results were disasterous. Clagget and Highmark would go on to form the core of one of the most successful two-year runs in program history their junior and senior seasons. This year, having basically no juniors and sophomores (with the exception of Eckerle) is what makes this roster unusual and next year will be even more unusual. I am patient and looking forward to seeing how it progresses.

[moytoy12]

Methinks season 3 is the better one to judge Tubby Majerus.

I don't doubt that, but that doesn't mean he should get a free pass for the first 2 seasons.

[cheesycow]

I don't doubt that, but that doesn't mean he should get a free pass for the first 2 seasons.

Certainly not, but in Quin Snyder's first two season's Mizzou was great. I don't think they give any sort of accurate measure of a coach's tenure (unless of course it only lasts those two years).

[kmbilliken]

I don't doubt that, but that doesn't mean he should get a free pass for the first 2 seasons.

He's not getting a free pass. He's showing results in recruiting. If wasn't getting results recruiting, there wouldn't be much hope. But he is getting it done recruiting and there's more hope now based on recruiting than any time I can remember. He inherited two good starters and a role player. You can't win with that the caliber of freshman we can bring in. We can't get 4 star recruits. These guys have talent, but will need to develope. Player developement is supposed to be RM's forte'. Give it a chance to work.

[moytoy12]

He's not getting a free pass. He's showing results in recruiting. If wasn't getting results recruiting, there wouldn't be much hope. But he is getting it done recruiting and there's more hope now based on recruiting than any time I can remember. He inherited two good starters and a role player. You can't win with that the caliber of freshman we can bring in. We can't get 4 star recruits. These guys have talent, but will need to develope. Player developement is supposed to be RM's forte'. Give it a chance to work.

I will give it a chance to work. The only thing i'm stating is that RM has earned the right to be criticized and isn't untouchable.

I have constantly stated that I believe he will bring us the results most of us are hoping for in the years to come. However, that shouldn't mean we just discard the past and current years.

His recruiting has been outstanding. No doubt.

I believe if RM leaves tomorrow, his tenure will have created more good things than bad things.

[William Iken]

Courtside, did you get a pink slip in the mail box at work on Monday? What is with all of these ridiculously long and obnoxious posts? I am sure Rick would hire you to put his shoes and socks on for him.

Strange, in a post yesterday in the 'SLU to Australia in 2010' thread, courtside wrote that 'Nobody else on this board cares of your dislike of my internet message board posting.' (although, as per usual he'll probably deny writing this line)...

It is obvious from this thread that several others dislike his posts, and more importantly the tone of his posts (but he may be right, perhaps others don't care of my dislike for his posts!) Ha ha...

...And how many times can one person say how 'objective' they are - it really rings hollow, mate.

The funny thing is that when you leave all your biases aside, your analysis is often useful. But Courtside, you're your biggest fan, and worst enemy.

[billiken_roy]

I can't recall a roster make-up like this one. I referenced a season earlier, which happened in the early 1990's, Coach Grawer's last year when the Bills had a lot of freshmen - Ryan Gran, Julian Winfield, Erwin Claggett and Scott Highmark. That bunch had very little leadership from the upperclassmen and the results were disasterous. Clagget and Highmark would go on to form the core of one of the most successful two-year runs in program history their junior and senior seasons. This year, having basically no juniors and sophomores (with the exception of Eckerle) is what makes this roster unusual and next year will be even more unusual. I am patient and looking forward to seeing how it progresses.

claggett and highmark did not have a lisch or a liddell on their team.

that said, i had a lot of fun watching those freshmen improve considerably under grawer throughout the season.

[Westy03]

claggett and highmark did not have a lisch or a liddell on their team.

that said, i had a lot of fun watching those freshmen improve considerably under grawer throughout the season.

Watching K. Mitchell develop into a point guard leader of the team really blows. Watching Willie developing more post moves and improving his rebouding sucks as well... I see all of our freshmen improving a lot, I wish I could say the same thing for your boy lisch

[billiken_roy]

Watching K. Mitchell develop into a point guard leader of the team really blows. Watching Willie developing more post moves and improving his rebouding sucks as well... I see all of our freshmen improving a lot, I wish I could say the same thing for your boy lisch

i said yesterday that mitchell threw the switch around xmas and has been getting better and better. i would tend to disagree on willie. i think he is definitely exceeding preseason expectations, but i dont see a game by game betterment from early december.

as to lisch, yes, it is quite disappointing to see someone with the guts and determination of a kevin lisch be broken.

[mcglotherirvin]

claggett and highmark did not have a lisch or a liddell on their team.

that said, i had a lot of fun watching those freshmen improve considerably under grawer throughout the season.

They had Quitman Dillard, Julian Winfield, and, for a while, myself and Melvin Robinson. I'd don't know if I'd take those returning players over Lisch and Liddell knowing what we know now (Robinson and I left). But that's as much if not more talent.

Did those frosh improve considerably? Highmark and Claggett averaged double figures. Were they better as frosh than Mitchell?

http://www.billikens.com/statistics/seasonstats/91-92.htm

[SShoe]

i would tend to disagree on willie. i think he is definitely exceeding preseason expectations, but i dont see a game by game betterment from early december.

Willie's progress is difficult to assess at this point because of the differences in competition. During our non-conference slate against Liberty, UMBC, UNC A&T, etc., Willie played much weaker big men. Now that he's in conference play, he's going up against bigger, stronger, and more experienced bigs, so I don't think you can simply say that there isn't a game by game betterment.