A question for Roy

[courtside]

> The bottom line is this. We can sit here on this bulletin

>board and hash it out all we want, but the bottom line at

>the end of the day Father Biondi still has the final say.

>He preaches academics over athletics this is true. Father

>Biondi doesn't care about the athletic programs. The one I

>feel sorry for is Cheryl Levick What can an athletic

>director do when her hands are tied. You can only have so

>many car washes and bake sales.

She can either get more from her superiors(hasn't happened yet) or she can polish that impressive resume and move on soon.

[billiken_roy]

gary we agree on something!

[billiken_roy]

drew said,

"I don't think that Brad himself believes he can land big recruits."

if that was true, then i doubt that soderberg would spend his time chasing grimes instead of shaw, stemler, suggs now, griffey coming up, etc.

if anything i think he believes opposite or he wouldnt try to land such.

[courtside]

>what we need is more boosters to take the stance they want

>to see the overall athletic dept improved/expanded. not

>take the shortcut "fire the coach and start over" approach.

>

>again, the instances of a former top assistant becoming a

>big time consistent winner isnt the norm. more turn into

>quin, or stan heath, or the slu lorenzo romar, or the brian

>gregory, then the tom crean or jaimie dixon (pitt) or chris

>lowery (siu).

>

>btw, both dixon and lowery are promotions from within same

>as mark few at gonzaga. hmmm, promotions from within, they

>didnt "start over".

Winning and success can be done in a multitude of ways.

Tim Floyd at USC, Al Skinner at B.C., JT 3 at Georgetown, Rick Pitino at Louisville, Billy Donovan at Florida, Bruce Pearl at Tennessee, Ben Howland at UCLA, Crean at Marquette... Things weren't given or handed to them. Stallings has a nice team this year and he's the 4th coach in recent history for them.

Teams can win with a coach handing it off to an assistant, or with an outsider who comes in to a program without connections in place.

[ANTISODERBERGGARY]

Finally!!!!!!!!!!

[slu72]

So once again, the blame falls to Fr. Biondi. Poor little Sodie. Here's a thought, since you've all figured it out that he's fighting the great battles of unreimbursed cell bills and ice cream cones, why doesn't UB just tell these cheapskates to take a hike and find himself a new HC position with a better funded program? I'd be surprised if none of his many suitors out there haven't been whispering in his ear that "you don't need this, come on over to State U. We know you're a great coach just waiting to happen who could out recruit JC himself, if only you had the $$$." I mean would Rick Pitino, Coach K, Tubby Smith, Rick Barnes, etc. stand for paying cell bills and ice cream cones out of their own pocket? Not on your life. Stop with this resource thing....it's not valid. My suggestion when the thought crosses your mind, go to the first thread above and click on Clayco site...is that resources enough for you?

[ANTISODERBERGGARY]

No I still do not think Soderberg is the man for the job. Father Biondi also has shwown he is content with the status quo. He has the final say not anyone else, just like when people were always blaming dal maxvill for the cardinals problems in the early 90's it wasn't dal his hands were tied it was the brewery.

The fish rots from the head.

[cheeseman]

I doubt that Father Biondi is the problem here. Does he make it easy no but what boss does. Does he make it impossible no. This is all Brad and he can fix it or loose it. Cheryl has gotten Brad plenty. Remember when the arena was not going to have offices and a practice facility - who kept working on Biondi - Cherly until she got what she wanted and Brad said was critical. To say that Biondi thwarts CL is also not true - does he open the check book for whatever she wants no but who has unlimited resources and gets everything they want - nobody even Roy Williams has somebody telling him no once in awhile.

[ANTISODERBERGGARY]

Are you close enough behond the scenes to actually know what's going on? Yes, the recriting and xand o's are brads fault. The problem with the athletic programs goes beyond basketball has anyone seen the deplorable baseball facilities SLU has. The basketball program should be able to generate the kind of revenue to balance the budget and help some of the lesser programs.

Just remember when one person in a group fails the whole group fails.

[davidnark]

Taj, the increased win total is meaningless because the level of conference competition has dropped off so dramatically in the last two seasons. Three years ago, we played a minimum of 9 conference games against top-25 Louisville, Cincy, Marquette, Memphis, and Charlotte teams. This season, we didn't play a single conference game against a top-25 team. Show me an improvement in quality wins and lack of bad losses, and I will be impressed. If anything, Brad has declined in this regard.

[davidnark]

Roy, the increased win total is meaningless because the level of conference competition has dropped off so dramatically in the last two seasons. Three years ago, we played a minimum of 9 conference games against top-25 Louisville, Cincy, Marquette, Memphis, and Charlotte teams. This season, we didn't play a single conference game against a top-25 team. Show me an improvement in quality wins and lack of bad losses, and I will be impressed. If anything, Brad has declined in this regard.

[cheeseman]

The same question could be asked of you. I thought this thread was about men's bb not the entire athletic program. My comment was in regards to men's bb.

[ANTISODERBERGGARY]

You do not get it it's a whole dept. problem. The baskball program has been spinning it's wheels for years, and still appears stuck in neutral.

You wouldn't no it though because there is not alot of coverage of it in the local media.

The local paper will never do a story or asessement on the state of the basketball program. Examples such as what the problems are, where they start or what is being done how it can be fixed. The post will never do it because they have to do their excellent overkill coverage of the Cardinals: Such as Why does Pujols eat with his left hand instead of his right. If the Post-Dispatch would discover there are other sports in town besides BORING baseball.

This is what happens when your in a one newspaper town.

[Marlow]

I don't think you can say Father Biondi is satisfied with the status quo; he clearly wants the best for the university, and he wants SLU to be the cream of the crop as an academic institution. You can see that from the way he has improved the campus and from the way he is on a mission to recruit the best and brightest students in St. Louis--distinct differences from the years before he arrived.

What is also clear is that he is in charge, and everyone at the university knows it, from the person who delivers the mail to the dean of the medical school. As a result, he has demonstrated time and again that anyone who works with students, coaches included, must espouse the Jesuit philosophy and work to develop the moral, academic, and social fiber of the students. Just look at the basketball coaches he has hired; the only one who veered a bit off that path was Spoon--there was plenty of speculation that many of the faculty had disdain for Spoon because they felt he compromised those standards by recruiting and playing players like Biles who bent the academic integrity. I also feel that Spoon knew he was on thin ice for this stuff when he resigned. I'm convinced that Rich Grawer was done in, not by the 5 win season, but before that, in trying to get wins quickly, he recruited some "questionable characters," like McGlother Irvin and others.

I think that Brad is clearly following the Jesuit code: he has consistently recruited scholar athletes, and his players have been strong members of the community. I'm convinced that Brad could have has his team the NCAA tourney every year, but if he had players getting DWI's and skipping class, he would be gone in a "Biondi minute."

Will his current status allow him to keep his job? Only Father Biondi knows. However, from Biondi's record, I think we can clearly tell, that Father would NEVER hire a coach who doesn't buy into the Jesuit philosophy 24/7.

[courtside]

>I don't think you can say Father Biondi is satisfied with

>the status quo; he clearly wants the best for the

>university, and he wants SLU to be the cream of the crop as

>an academic institution. You can see that from the way he

>has improved the campus and from the way he is on a mission

>to recruit the best and brightest students in St.

>Louis--distinct differences from the years before he

>arrived.

>

>What is also clear is that he is in charge, and everyone at

>the university knows it, from the person who delivers the

>mail to the dean of the medical school. As a result, he has

>demonstrated time and again that anyone who works with

>students, coaches included, must espouse the Jesuit

>philosophy and work to develop the moral, academic, and

>social fiber of the students. Just look at the basketball

>coaches he has hired; the only one who veered a bit off

>that path was Spoon--there was plenty of speculation that

>many of the faculty had disdain for Spoon because they felt

>he compromised those standards by recruiting and playing

>players like Biles who bent the academic integrity. I also

>feel that Spoon knew he was on thin ice for this stuff when

>he resigned. I'm convinced that Rich Grawer was done in,

>not by the 5 win season, but before that, in trying to get

>wins quickly, he recruited some "questionable characters,"

>like McGlother Irvin and others.

>

>I think that Brad is clearly following the Jesuit code: he

>has consistently recruited scholar athletes, and his players

>have been strong members of the community. I'm convinced

>that Brad could have has his team the NCAA tourney every

>year, but if he had players getting DWI's and skipping

>class, he would be gone in a "Biondi minute."

>

>Will his current status allow him to keep his job? Only

>Father Biondi knows. However, from Biondi's record, I think

>we can clearly tell, that Father would NEVER hire a coach

>who doesn't buy into the Jesuit philosophy 24/7.

It's too bad you just can't win in men's hoops if you have such high moral and academic standards. Harvard, I mean SLU is really up against it.

Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, Boston College, and on and on and on...probably feel the same way.

[Marlow]

Nobody said they are mutually exclusive. And I'm sure that if you sat down with Father Biondi he would understand your thinking and hire the coach you thought would do the trick.

[courtside]

>Nobody said they are mutually exclusive. And I'm sure that

>if you sat down with Father Biondi he would understand your

>thinking and hire the coach you thought would do the trick.

His job is to give the AD the resources and support and step out of the way. He does well with people who do not have strong personalities.

[Marlow]

What we think his job is and how he wants to do his job are two totally diferent things. He's the president/CEO of the university, and he has taken the university into big time progress. . . and endowment heaven. He's been highly successful doing it his way, and I get the feeling that he views CL as no more important than any other department head at SLU, even though BBall fans might not view it that way.

[KC Billikens Fan]

>Roy, the increased win total is meaningless because the

>level of conference competition has dropped off so

>dramatically in the last two seasons. Three years ago, we

>played a minimum of 9 conference games against top-25

>Louisville, Cincy, Marquette, Memphis, and Charlotte teams.

>This season, we didn't play a single conference game against

>a top-25 team. Show me an improvement in quality wins and

>lack of bad losses, and I will be impressed. If anything,

>Brad has declined in this regard.

Excellent point.

[courtside]

>What we think his job is and how he wants to do his job are

>two totally diferent things. He's the president/CEO of the

>university, and he has taken the university into big time

>progress. . . and endowment heaven. He's been highly

>successful doing it his way, and I get the feeling that he

>views CL as no more important than any other department head

>at SLU, even though BBall fans might not view it that way.

I am not only speaking of athletics. SLU isn't Georgetown, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Boston College, or even GW. Nor will it be any time soon.

I think he has done well in some areas at SLU, sure. I also think Fr. Schleigel, Fr. Wild, Fr. Leahy and so on have as well, ...and they also see the value that atheltics brings to their schools in a wide variety of ways, something Biondi hasn't. And athletics isn't the only shortcoming area of his, but this is a sports board. And as I said, he has done well in some other areas. He has failed miserably in revenue athletics and their tangible and intangible value to a University.

[billiken_roy]

courtside said,

"Stallings has a nice team this year and he's the 4th coach in recent history for them."

the billikens have had four coaches grawer, spoon, romar and soderberg during the same period that vandy has had van breda koff and stallings.

floyd at usc, howland at ucla, pitino at louisville, donovan at florida, pearl at tennessee.....things werent given to them? are you seriously comparing the athletic departments of those schools and the facilities of those schools to slu?

courtside this might be your most ridiculous posts of all time.

[Taj79]

I was one of those screaming that rallying cry and I cannot explain in words my disappointment .... well, yes I can .... and "it's hard work being a Billiken fan" fts quite well.

But you impress me as one of the young guns on this board and you're inability to revisit history makes things a little suspect. But that will change with time, my perspective has.

To answer your questions to me .... the "one more year' ends for me this year. Do you understand "check fire?" In short, it means that situations change and you have to adapt to that change. Check your original targets in the real versus the perceived and adjust accordingly. Every action has an oppositie reaction. Right now, to me, the future hangs in a very delicate balance that is the St. Louis class of 08. We all know waht that means? Check. We all know Brad's connection to it? Check. We all know how important that is to this program? Check. So then the question becomes do we wait that out or move on now. I am of the camp that once agains says "show me."

What if Brad does not deliver? To me, nothing can save him from this recruiting year except progress on the court and I am on the record as stating that without significant additons to the current returning roster, achieving a mark like last year's record will be nearly impossible. At taht point, with no recruits and no improvement, Brad Soderberg's future is sealed.

Some would probably ask why wait? Because I have faith that he will come through this fall. Why? Don't know, its just hard work being a Billiken fan and sometimes, faith is all you're left with. If waht happens as you describe, a minor recruiting class, a simialr 20 wins, and no bid, well, at first blush, I say not good enough and he could be gone. But if it were me, I'd spell that out before the season begins. In the hazy world of evaluation, the guy's got to knwo what the measure is that he's up against.

But for all those guys screaming for some young up-and-comer, news flash: they don't come here. Again, when were we ever a destination program? Who has advanced (outside of Romar who went home to Alma Mater U?) from this job and not DIED. This is a graveyard and if you buried Brad, the legacy continues. You get another four or five years of that continued legacy as the man now in charge builds his foundation. You get ##### home schedules like those at Mizzou and YouDee that perpetuate a myth that you might be good. All these fans will scream and moan when the Detroits, Youngstown States and UMKCs of the world come to the Chay-fitz and give us bought wins. These will be the same guys screaming "Where my Duke and Florida and Kentucky?"

The problem with switching architects is that the new guy almost invariably has to start at ground zero and what's there goes away. None of the guys we've had since Grawer did much on their own. Spoon won with Grawer recruits and added H and got Hughes. Romar won with Spoon recruits in a miracle and then left an implorable situation for Soderberg. Soderberg is running out of time. He has approached critical mass for me right now.

Frankly, I don't see the next great thing on the horizon licking his chops to get here. I've been through that in the replacement battles for Albrecht then Coleman then Ekker then Grawer then Spoon then Romar now Soderberg. Look at that list!!!!!! Wouldn't you want to be a branch hacked off that family tree?????

[courtside]

>courtside said,

>

>"Stallings has a nice team this year and he's the 4th coach

>in recent history for them."

>

>the billikens have had four coaches grawer, spoon, romar and

>soderberg during the same period that vandy has had van

>breda koff and stallings.

>

>floyd at usc, howland at ucla, pitino at louisville, donovan

>at florida, pearl at tennessee.....things werent given to

>them? are you seriously comparing the athletic departments

>of those schools and the facilities of those schools to slu?

>

>courtside this might be your most ridiculous posts of all

>time.

C'mon Roy you are smarter than that? Aren't you?

First, the topic was coaches being able to win from the outside and also as assistants.

Now my examples aren't applicable because those schools have better facilities....or do they?

Why is it that Florida built new facilities more than 5 years after Donovan was there? Did you see the old ones Roy? Tennessee is going to undergo new renovations(Been to Thompson Boling lately?)....Vanderbilt recently completed theirs. USC just completed theirs.

Many of these coaches had success prior to getting new upgraded and renovated facilities to their outdated ones.

I also noticed you left some of the schools off of the list, that was convenient too.

I would say this is one of your most ridiculous posts, but it didn't have dollar signs, hate speech, name calling etc...in it.