Myth buster or bad journalism?

[kshoe]

For years, whenever people have questioned Brad's recruiting and included in the names of players we should have landed Randal Falker, the pundits on this board have said that we did recruit him but he wanted to go to engineering school and thus SIU made more sense. I've heard it so many times I came to believe it as fact.

Then today I read this in Vahe Gregorian's feature article on Falker:

"Falker wasn't heavily recruited despite leading the St. Louis area with 139 blocked shots as a senior. SLU called so late in the process that Falker never took the Billikens seriously."

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/st...40?OpenDocument

So do we have a case here of poor journalism by Vahe or has the myth that we never had a shot at Falner and thus our coaches shouldn't be blamed for missing on him been busted?

[slufanskip]

You don't miss an opportunity do you. Way to stay on top of things.

Why don't you call or email Brad. He's the only one that really knows if he recruited him hard or not, and if not why not.

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[kshoe]

and I hardly doubt that i am the only regular on this board that will read that article and say "I always thought we had no chance at him because he wanted a degree that SLU didn't offer."

Maybe the article was just poorly written, that is why I was asking.

And if I don't point it out today, then the billikens.com myth can just continue on rolling. Maybe that is what you want.

[slufanskip]

No ... I don't really care why he went to SIU. I don't care if he wanted to come here and we didn't wnt him and it turned out that we evaluated bad. I don't care if he wasn't highly recruited because no one thought he was very good and he has developed into an decent player. I don't care if Brad thought he had bad body odor and didn't want to bring a stinky guy into the locker room.

No coach gets everybody for a variety of reasons. The article may be correct ... I don't care

I do care about the players we have on our roster now and what Brad can do with them. If he can't get us to the tourney and keep us there more than 50% of the time. I'll be on the get rid of Brad bandwagon. The thing is I think he can ... and I think he will

There is no way with your history the last few months of looking for reasons to attack Brad ... that most people won't see that post as a backhanded jab at Brad.

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Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[AlumniFan]

"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben

[NashvilleBilliken]

This guy is a real tool, skip. Hey Kshoe, I spilt some milk...wanna come over and cry over it?

If I understand his post, he is coming to Billikens.com to ask what the truth is. Are you thinking at all? I mean, at one point you say it's been said for years that we didn't have his major. Then later you ask, well, was it really that Brad didn't recruit him? Is this all a myth? You are asking THE SAME PEOPLE. Is that not COMPLETELY contradictory?

And furthermore, does the answer really matter to you?? You've already stated your very low opinion of our coach and our team. I highly doubt the answer to this question is going to change your opinion. Is it now the case to go back 4 years and pick out every recruit we don't have. How many posts a day do you think the Illini board have about Kevin Lisch?

[bonwich]

Kshoe and I disagree on this board more than we agree. But I also sit close to him at the games, and I can assure you that no one with that level of fan passion is a "tool."

I really care less about individual successes and failures in recruiting than most people who post. I do care, however, on a "big picture" basis, and somewhere down the line, we as fans might really start to care about Brad's gray areas as a coach. (Or we could make the second or third round this year, and most of those cares will fritter away -- for at least a few months.)

And the implied half of kshoe's question, which has been ignored in the responses, is whether the professional sports journalists in this town are presenting documentable facts (and related opinions), or whether they're simply tossing out junk to stir things up and fill space. The stuff I've read from Vahe makes me feel like he's a digger. (And the way the Mizzou fans love him should gain him at least a little respect out here .)

Anyway, it's also something in print, something that at least 40 or 50 people will read today. (Has anyone got their paper at home yet? I certainly haven't.) So it's not like he's simply, say, posting that we need to offer yet another local player who happens to be 6-8 and had a good game last night.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I've never questioned whether Kshoe is a fan of the program. This much I know. But he is absolutely NOT a fan of Brad Soderberg and thinks this team is very average. Just look at his posts. Furthermore, I do think he's a tool. I think Billiphan can be an ######. I think Realistic Billiken is also an a-hole. I do think they are both fans of the program. The two are not mutually exclusive.

And in no way do I think KShoe's post is meant to question the journalistic integrity of the article. Unfortunately, life isn't lived in a bubble. There is a pattern in his posts, and this par for the course. If he didn't have an agenda, the post would have had a tone of "what is this guy thinking...doesn't he do any research". It was more, Vahe says Brad didn't offer late. Here's another reason we need to get rid of our coach.

[AlumniFan]

I have met Kshoe and he is a very bright guy so it is in his nature to question things. I also know he is a fan. No problem with any of that. I just don't see the point of bringing up things from the past regarding recruiting again and again. And it is certainly not Kshoe's domain alone; it is a constant topic on the board for many. It just gets old, but, hey, it's a free country.

"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben

[Taj79]

.. have had our go-arounds and don't readily agree but I've thought him an avid supporter of the program. Who says you can't support while calling for the coach's head? Maybe that's too extreme but what I'm trying to say is that a fan of any program does not necessarily mean you support all aspects of the program. For years, I have believed it is time for Joe Paterno to retire. Despite that, I still go to the scores column on Sunday morning and home the Sh*ttany Lions have won. You can raise questions. Questions that lead to insightful discussions would seem to be welcome almost everywhere in life's travels.

Some problems I have: who cares and why bring it up now? Second, it is okay to bring up as I see it because of the myth busting issue .. I remember folks saying Falkner wanted engineering so we had no chance. Some other things, tho, are that I don't know how someone anywhere can readily identify a "pattern" among posters. And if there's a pattern, so what. Fianlly, my favorite is the old "if its in the paper it must be true" myth.

Bottom line: like the other "who are we recruiting thread" the answer has to be we will never really know. maybe the engineering thing was an excuse. Maybe not. Either way, the reality is he went elsewhere. Best wishes. Much like a pantry, our ingredients are on the shelf. We can't bemoan whats not there. We work with what we got. Brad stocked it, Brad's got to cook with it.

[slufanskip]

I probably go around with Kshoe as much as anyone on the board. At at no time do I mean to question if he is a real fan of the Bills. I can see him from my seats during games and he is as vocal to the refs as I am, maybe more as he sits right there. I don't think he is a fan of Brad and I think it is clear that in his opinion the team can do better. It is because he is a huge fan that he rides Brad, because he wants what is best for the program and he has alot of questions regarding Brad being the guy to get us there. I understand that and agree on a few of his points. I don't agree with what I see as his constant Brad bashing. Thats fine ... he will probably continue to complain and I will continue to challenge him as he will me when he disagrees ... which seems to be often.

I respect Kshoe and his knowledge of the game alot. Imo the more fans we have that truly want what they believe is best for the program is a good thing.

Kshoe ... I hope you don't take any of my posts that challenge your opinion personally ...

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[TheA_Bomb]

I think Sshoe is the Tool have you seen that dude's hair cut? I think he got it in the Great Clips drive thru.

[kshoe]

I love the Billikens. Have gone to nearly every game since the age of 4 and 5. When I get together with my family that is all we seem to talk about. I am a relatively rare fan for the Billikens in that i'm not 50+ years of age, I am not a student that only shows up for big games, and at a relatively young age make relatively large contributions to the program relative to my income. I doubt there are many that have the passion I do regardng the Bills.

Believe it or not, I like Brad and want him to win. The only thing I have against him is he hasn't won as much as I want. I want a coach that wins often and takes us to many NCAA tourneys. Keep the program clean and graduate players. I honestly do not think I am asking too much from SLUs coach to do those things. The .500 career record that Brad has had up to this point does not fit into my definition of winning enough.

I feel that my loyalty is to SLU and not the coach. I don't believe that will ever change. I have NEVER said Brad should be fired but I do believe that if we don't make the NCAA tournament this year the pressure should be on. 5 years is certainly enough to make the dance at least once.

I strongly believe that poor recruiting will catch up to you and I do not believe we have recruited well ever since Lisch orrally committed to us. Agree or disagree with me but tht is how I feel.

Why today to bring up this issue again? Well it should be obvious. We have had many arguments on this board about recruiting and Brad has always been given a free pass on Falker by most on the board (including me). Then a published article contradicts the argument that we never had a chance at him. Should I just sit on this until the argument springs up again in 3-months at which point finding the article will cost me the archive fee at the Post. Of course not!

Consider this, if an article is published before the Missouri St. game that said something along the lines of "Blake Ahearn chose Missouri St. because it offered a major that SLU didn't" do you think people wouldn't comment on that and all the Brad-lovers wouldn't bash the "negative" folk. Of course not!

And yes, I think it does matter how local kids end up at other schools, especially when they clearly would be good fits in ouyr program. It is one thing if we went after him hard and lost, it is quite another if we evaluated his talent and decided he wasn't good enough to play for us. Talent evaluation is a critical skill-set for a coach.

On last thing...in my opinion many of the super-pro positive Brad guys are actually quite negative on the players. Whether its ripping JJ's work ethic, IAN's speed, Polk's shot, or just making comments like "the players need to make plays" it seems to me that they would rather blame the players then the coach that recruited the players. I take more of a "the buck stops here" approach that the person to blame for the player deficiencies is the coach that brough him in. Just my opinion though.

[Sheltiedave]

Being curious a few years back, I asked Falker where he was oplanning on going. He mentioned SIU because they had his planned major, and said no on SLU because they didn't.

Turns out he changes his major after he hit some rough academic waters, and now is a communications major.

Still doesn't change the situation that AT THAT TIME, SIU was his college of choice. Get the horse to the glue factory, please. German.

[BleacherBum593]

One of the hardest aspects of recruiting is looking at a 14-18 year old and trying to project what he can or will develop into 3-5 years down the road.

One thing that Vahe pointed out was that Falker lacked intensity at times in high school. Even Falker's dad pointed that out in the article. Could that be one of the reason's that he was not heavily recruited?

A recruiter can only look at a player x of amount of times and if he doesn't show the ability or intensity when he's seen, its time to focus on other players. I can't fault a recruiter under those circumstances.

In this case SIU got in early, saw something that other recruiter's didn't. They then stuck with a project player and have been rewarded down the road for it. It could easily have turned out the other way and SIU could have wasted a scholarship on him.

It's a crapshoot. You win one or two, but you lose five or six.

[NashvilleBilliken]

As I said earlier, I don't thing anybody every questioned the level of your fandom. It's all this whining that's annoying

You say coach is a bad talent evaluator because he missed out on these guys who went to SIU and Missouri State. No offense to those programs, but if these talents were so GREAT, why are they there? We know Kevin got a scholarship fromm Illinois and ND was recruiting him. Where were all the great talent evaluators for the straight A ace outta illinois? Where were all the great talent evaluators signing Tommie Liddell. How many schollies did Ian have? You just ***** and ***** about all these players we lost...chalking it up to talent evaluation. I'm not saying Brad hasn't ever "missed" a recruit. That would be moronic. Look in every direction, coaches "miss" players every day.

I find your last paragraph particuraly amusing. You are ripping both the coach AND the players. You've posted about numberous players that you would like to have. Meaning, you DON'T want that same number of our current players. Yeah, I'm sure the team wouldn't take that as an insult.

And finally, if we had a recruiting class of all the players on your wish list, it would probably rank around 200 in the country and you would be irate. Kinda like our current class. If Horace Dixon turns into Tyrus Thomas in 3 years, is Brad still a poor talent evaluator? I would like to know the 4 year "busts" Brad has produced.

[aj_arete]

The only difference is I disagree with you on this issue. It's easy to speculate on recruiting misses. However, the difference with Falker is he played in the PHL, which is typically overlooked by major Div I schools, and his recruitment consisted of mid-majors.

Now SIUC is very good in evaluating talent, but they regularly sift through players overlooked by the high majors. They typically don't compete for players that SLU needs to find in order to compete at a high major level on a consistent basis.

Yes, Brad might have missed on Falker, but is it a huge miss? He's labeled as an underachiever, who lacks passion. Maybe Brad identified that and thought of him as a second-tier offer for SLU. I don't have any problems with it.

[kshoe]

" No offense to those programs, but if these talents were so GREAT, why are they there?"

Well, I'm not sure if you've looked recently but the MVC is currently a better basketball conference than the A-10. The conference has elevated itself significantly from just a few years ago due in part to the local St. Louis players like Falker, Shaw and Ahearn.

"I find your last paragraph particuraly amusing. You are ripping both the coach AND the players. You've posted about numberous players that you would like to have. Meaning, you DON'T want that same number of our current players. Yeah, I'm sure the team wouldn't take that as an insult."

Considering we always have at least one open scholarship I'm sure we could make room for any of the players we missed on without insulting the current players.

"If Horace Dixon turns into Tyrus Thomas in 3 years, is Brad still a poor talent evaluator?"

Of course not. If we make the final four I'd be happy too. Seems like big ifs to me though.

[bonwich]

That article appeared today. And it did, apparently, contribute new information that conflicts with some previous information about that particular player and his decision process.

[aj_arete]

but I think their top level status will be short. I really think the MVC will have one more great year, since there were a lot of good juniors from last year. However, it's tough for many of those schools to stay on top.

For one, the successful coaches will move on to high major coaching jobs. The quality of facilities and resources are well below par to high major institutions. The only saving grace is the early entry NBA draft that is luring many of the big men away from the high major programs.

We'll see if they stay on top over the long haul. I have my doubts.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Yes, the MVC has had more recent success than the A-10. At the end of the year, the MCV may still be better than the A-10. But the MVC will never surpass the A-10 in national recognition and history. I just don't see it. Probably because they are a little midwest conference and the majority of the country couldn't care less. The A-10 is a much higher profile conference. Perception is reality.

We debate Ahearn to the point of nasuea. We throw Shaw into the mix occationally. Stemler is the new Ahearn. Why now do you need to throw more wood on the fire. I mean, we're 5-1. How can that be explained? If Brad can't coach and can't evaluate talent, and just about every player should be replaced with an MVC player. I just don't understand how we've reached this point.

Also, as I said before. Does SIU post after every Lisch 20+ turnout. Apparently they missed on him. Does their message board light up on every Liddell bucket? Both 2 Illinois prospects who don't play for your beloved Saluki's. People miss players. Plain and Simple.

[SShoe]

>I think Sshoe is the Tool have you seen that dude's hair

>cut? I think he got it in the Great Clips drive thru.

You couldn't be more wrong. I walked inside Great Clips for my "stylin"

[AlumniFan]

We can talk semantics all day long. It is a free country. If people want to keep talking about recruiting over and over (noticed another new thread on the subject....yawn....) and rehashing the same general arguments, have at it. I am just tired of it.

"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben

[SShoe]

Great post and I totally agree. Coaches make judgements regarding who they do and don't recruit. Those judgements can be wrong or right, but either way it's their evaluations at that time that lead them to offer scholarships. It's difficult because often players that were supposed to be something special (McKinney and Johnny Parker are two that come to mind) don't always pan out while unheralded guys like Darren brookes or Ahearn become very good college players. Falker's a situation where he would be a great fit on this team, but at the age of 17, he wasn't much to behold and SIU saw what most didn't.

We certainly hit on a few recruits that have panned out like KL, TL, and Iv (who is the biggest hit because he was an "upside" player who many thought would never be anything). Whether it's luck or not, we still signed him and he turned out great. We were also able to recruit the solid locals like DP and LM. But let's be honest with ourselves also. Evaluating guys like KL and TL is not exactly hard. Anybody with half an ounce of b-ball knowledge could see these guys were special from the start. Brad certainly did a good job of getting in early like I hope he's done with the studs from the area's 08' class.

So there's definately reason to be happy with Brad and the things he's done the past 5 years, but there is certainly room for complaint as there are local guys we definatley missed and there's really no argument to suggest any of these guys couldn't help us this year or in the past. The problem I think many have are that when a player is sitting on your doorstep and wants to attend your university, it's embarressing when he goes somewhere else and becomes a stud.

[davidnark]

I read the article this morning and noticed/questioned the exact same thing. There are a lot of posters jumping down your throat for brining this up, but our own PDiddy--who is universally adored and trusted in this forum--has implied on several ocassions that Brad missed the boat during this first few years in regard to local player evaluation/recruiting. Regardless, this is new information and is therefore fair game for discussion.