Jones off, Hill on

[VTIME]

>VTIME,

>

>Cooper did not graduate from MOBAP, he only played one year

>at MOBAP and was kicked off.

>

>Gordon-left Illinoise state b/c he flunked out, is now at

>Oklahoms city univer, he played one year but did not

>graduate, but in most NAIA schools this happens b/c there

>are no guidline

>

>Jones and Trice did not graduate

>

>Sean Turnstall(??)- went to Kansas and was eligible for 1

>year when they went to the Final Four but dropped out after

>and got killed in a drug deal gone bad.

>

>The Nash twins-dropped out and one is on the corner an the

>other is working at foot locker

>

>Vtime-you really need to know your facts about the Vashon

>players, I know you are a young gun but you are talking to a

>guy that went to Vashon and I think I know a little more

>about that place than you.

Coop did graduate from Mo Bap. I've known Coop since he was the QB at the V and we played against him at Harris-Stowe his senior year. And I still keep in touch with guys at Mo Bap, especially since I have a connection with both of their star 2005 recruits. Brandon Bishop played for the STL Falcons with my brother and Ryan Byrne played with Kenny Burke at Mineral Area, and Kenny played with my brother on the 31-0 state team. Gordon is graduating this summer. He's got online classes. His brother Priest attends Harris-Stowe. Also Tunstall was killed outside of Wohl's back in 1995. It was after an argument. We dont know if it was about drugs. All you guys talk about is the failed Vashon guys. What about Darren Boone getting ready to graduate from Western Illinois. He graduated 3rd in his class. He was a part time starter on the 2002 state team. He shared starts with Donny Jackson. He was third in his class at Vashon. What about Scaife? What about Britt? Britt was a 4 year player who sacrificed himself becaues he had football to fall back on. Outstanding ball player. There are several ex Vashon basketball players in college right now.

here's the list accompanied by the year they graduated from Vashon

Darren Boone-senior (2002) Western Illinois

Antonio Scaife-junior (2003)SEMO

William Franklin-junior (2004) Missouri

Curtis Muse-junior (2004) North Texas

DeAlan Hicks-junior(2004)likely headed to HSSU

Andre Aarons-junior(2002)likely headed to HSSU

Kenny Daniels-soph-(2005)Cowley

Johnny Hill-frosh-(2005)SEMO

Joseph Pembleton-soph(2005)Mineral Area

James Washington-frosh(2006)Western Illinois

Bobby Hill-frosh(2006)

Brian Roach-frosh(2006)

[VTIME]

>>>vtime, please name one Vashon alumnus outside of Anthony

>>>Bonner who lived up to the hype in college.

>

>>Well Lorenzo Gordon was 1st team all-conference all 4 years

>>in college. That includes 1st team all MVC and MVC Newcomer

>>of the Year.

>

>So the best answer you can give is a guy who played JUCO for

>two years and Division I for one, then got kicked out of

>school because of academics and had to go back to a JUCO?

>

>You're not exactly helping your case with that info.

>

>Hopefully some of these Vashon grads the last few years

>(nice kids like Jimmy McKinney, Will Franklin, Dwayne Polk

>and James Washington) can finish college with strong degrees

>and find success away from the fields and courts.

>

>- Nate

Gordon didnt go back to a JUCO. He went to an NAIA school, averaged 25 ppg and led them to the Final Four. Heck of a ball player.

[VTIME]

>>>vtime, please name one Vashon alumnus outside of Anthony

>>>Bonner who lived up to the hype in college.

>

>>Well Lorenzo Gordon was 1st team all-conference all 4 years

>>in college. That includes 1st team all MVC and MVC Newcomer

>>of the Year.

>

>So the best answer you can give is a guy who played JUCO for

>two years and Division I for one, then got kicked out of

>school because of academics and had to go back to a JUCO?

>

>You're not exactly helping your case with that info.

>

>Hopefully some of these Vashon grads the last few years

>(nice kids like Jimmy McKinney, Will Franklin, Dwayne Polk

>and James Washington) can finish college with strong degrees

>and find success away from the fields and courts.

>

>- Nate

He asked who lived up to the hype. He surpassed it. He was a top player everywhere he went. The only person that stopped him in his college career was him.

[tdog]

Just to throw my two cents in here, and since Thicks brought up Melvin, I want to add these two stories about Floyd.

First, when Melvin was having problems getting along with Grawer and wanted to quit the team, Floyd advised him to go ahead and quit, and then called Grawer himself to let him know that Melvin was quitting.

The other event was the time that Floyd pulled his team off the court in the MO State Championship game in Columbia with time still remaining on the clock and did not return to play because he thought he was getting too many bad calls from the refs.

And some wonder why kids from his program are often not prepared to succeed in life? If his message is that you don't have to stand up as a man and take responsibility for your life as in these two events, the kids won't have the necessary survivial skills for later life. And I find this to be incredibly sad, because there are so many talented kids from Vashon that don't get the chance to realize their potential.

[boomerang]

Eric Jones did not make grades and left for a juco (not sure which one).

Hill was a non-qualifier and sat out last year but attended Semo (kind of like the old Prop 48 rule). He will be a Freshman this season.

[VTIME]

>Just to throw my two cents in here, and since Thicks brought

>up Melvin, I want to add these two stories about Floyd.

>

>First, when Melvin was having problems getting along with

>Grawer and wanted to quit the team, Floyd advised him to go

>ahead and quit, and then called Grawer himself to let him

>know that Melvin was quitting.

>

>The other event was the time that Floyd pulled his team off

>the court in the MO State Championship game in Columbia with

>time still remaining on the clock and did not return to play

>because he thought he was getting too many bad calls from

>the refs.

>

>And some wonder why kids from his program are often not

>prepared to succeed in life? If his message is that you

>don't have to stand up as a man and take responsibility for

>your life as in these two events, the kids won't have the

>necessary survivial skills for later life. And I find this

>to be incredibly sad, because there are so many talented

>kids from Vashon that don't get the chance to realize their

>potential.

That's why McKinney and Polk have made academic all-conference teams too, I guess. That's why Scaife finished third in his class and is graduating in 3 years from SEMO. There's good and bad. There are 12 former players in college right now. He cant be doing that bad of a job.

[Cowboy]

I am pretty sure that the game where floyd pulled the team off the floor was played, or not, in Springfield, not Columbia

[VTIME]

I already knew the situation with Hill. While someone was bad mouthing Irons, saying he told Robinson to quit, they didnt talk about how he told Johnny to stay. I'm interest in seeing which Hill brother has the biggest impact next season. With 4 guys playing locally, 3 freshman (Hill, Hill, and Washington), and a junior in Polk, it will interesting to see how much these guys can produce at the college level. All of them may start or none of them. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, but I'm proud of all of them as well as being proud of our other localy guys, Frazier, Tatum, Falker, Shaw, Shipley, Fuhrmeyer, Moosman, Pearson, Kirk, Hansbroughs, Everett, Stovall, Strobbe, Farmer, Barnett, Evans, and many other local guys playing college ball. Does anyone know where Spencer Laurie is?

[boomerang]

Spencer Laurie is at Mo State. The roster on their website has not been updated for the upcoming season yet.

[VTIME]

Was he there last season, if not where was he. Good to see him join his brother. It's funny how some brothers want to play together and others dont.

[boomerang]

Spencer sat out last season as a transfer.

v - I responded to one of your questions about Hill on Mitchell's blog at the semissourian.com site.

[3star_recruit]

I'm afraid the academic monster may be rearing its ugly head again given the paucity of offers Powell has received.

"Marvin Neals of Card Ritter has had some great players play for him at Soldan, and CR some went on to have great bball careers and some turned out to be great teachers, chemist etc.."

Coach Neals is the man and Ritter does a great job of preparing disadvantaged youngsters for the academic rigors of college. Unfortunately Ritter attracts very little high major basketball talent these days. I'd love for Richard Anderson to end up there because Beaumont is just as much an academic dead-end for bball players as Vashon is.

[Box and Won]

V - what happened to Joel Shelton? Didn't seem like he was at SEMO very long.

[Taj79]

... you are doing that proverbial "apples-to-oranges" thing. You ardently call for Saint Louis University to recruit local kids, Vashon kids, all the kids that got away. Then, when its pointed out that these so-called basketball superstars at the V have a history and proven track record of classroom failure, you bring into play what appears to be Vashon kids that went on to have successful collegiate careers, but NONE of these examples are basketball players.

I looked on the ESPN College men's basketball page for Darren Boone, your listed senior at Western Illinois. He may be a senior and he might be doing well, but he not on their basketball team. Same thing with Antonio Scaife who you claim is a junior ranked third in his class at SEMO. But guess what, he's not listed on their basketball roster. I think its going to be very hard to find that "SCAIFE" jersey at the SEMO bookstore. William Franklin is not listed on Mizzou's roster. And frankly, kids going to Harris-Stowe for basketball cannot be compared to competition at high- or mid-major conferences. If they were at least as good as Bobby Hill, SEMO would have come knocking.

Sure, kids can come out of Vashon, Beaumont, Ritenour, Soldan, Central, whatever and succeed. But we are not talking about kids that have developed a work ethic to get that college degree ... we are talking about Vashon basketball playeers at a higher level. And the proof is in the pudding that their track record well, frankly, stinks.

Eric Jones threw down a whopping 4.6 ppg in his first and only year at SEMO ... which, lest we forget, was a 4 and 16 team in the Ohio Valley Conference. Lorenzo Taylor, another of your recommendations from some time ago, threw down a whopping 0.7 ppg at Western Illinois, home of the aforementioned Boone. They were 3 and 13 in the Horizon League. For all that Lorenzo Gordan can and did do, you nailed that on the head when you said only HE stopped himself. The fact that in the here-and-now he is seven or whatever courses short of graduation ... send me a letter when its official. Snapshots in time do not present a clear picture of things as they progress. By the way, what's his degree in? If its PE, well, enough on that subject.

I don't know anything about Floyd Irons (where did FLOW JO come from?) but what I do know is that history is on the side of us who chuckle when discussing Vashon kids at the next level. If the NCAA is serious about keeping tabs on its collegiate coaches and holding them accoutnable for graduation rates and trying to link available scholarships to those numbers, shouldn't high school be the same? A college degree doesn't gather much nowadays but is a prerequisite in my book ... think how much less a high school degree provides.

I think Illinois State ( that was Gordon's last school, right?) took a flyer on Gordon. If it panned out, they would have been looking good. But it didn't. I think the Illinois State's of the world and the SEMO's and the Westerns have a better chance at doing that then all the private schools in the country.

I am certain some of the folks you are advocating will turn out to have "okay" college careers. I am also certain many will not. You can hem and haw all you want on potential and expectations and shoulda-coulda-woulda. Keep those cards and letters coming, they are entertaining to say the least. But to make certain predictions now is ludicrous. But I enjoy watching you anyway.

[boomerang]

Have no idea if Scaife is graduating or not this summer, but he's a football player at Semo (not basketball). He may have been ranked 3rd in his class at Vashon, but he certainly isn't ranked 3rd in his class at Semo. He's a punt returner that catches a few passes every now and then, nothing more nothing less.

[VTIME]

The reason I brought up Scaife and Boone is because they were great students. Like I said there are several former Vashon basketball players playing a sport at the division 1 level, so the concerns about grades as of late arent as big as they used to be.

[Taj79]

.... what is Boone majoring in? What is Scaife majoring in? I think that while all admission requirements (minimum) might be uniform across NCAA schools, major areas of study with attending requirements are not.

I harken back to my days at SLU ... even with taking a cake major like Communications (others comments not mine) you are still in the College of Arts and Sciences and when I was there the degree included three courses in Philosphy, three in theology, two in the Sciences and two in Languages. Now, I got around the Language by taking Russian Literature in Translation and the sciences were Chemistry in the Environment and Meterology but they still required some serious reading, understanding and comprehension. As well as spitting it all back on tests. I seriously did not believe I would ever get out of the Intro to Philosophy ocurse. Thank gawd for Penn State summer school!

Again, we need to compare apples to apples. Your logic is flawed. Demonstrate the change by showing us the four year degrees earned by recent (oh heck, throw Bonner in as well it will give you at least one success story) Vashon grads that went away to play basketball. That's the rub.

[billiken_roy]

v, "several" doesnt cut it. vashon should be about education first and basketball or other EXTRA curricular activities second.

what has amazed me over the last 15 years or so is that vashon parents continue to feed the machine. i guess somehow they believe the dream and believe that vashon is the best way for their son to make it. and these parents transfer their kids to vashon, sometimes fradulently, so their son's can play for the legendary floyd irons. however, facts show otherwise with "several" exceptions their son is actually doomed to failure.

if irons truly had the young student athlete's best interest at heart, he would become the coach carter of st louis. insisting on real academic progress. where the students go to class, get the true grades and become model citizens instead of the reality. alas, there are far too many vashon fans of the basketball team that defend coach irons and allow the shenanigans. until these same parents wake up and demand academic progress first and foremost, the typical vashon athlete will forever be behind the rest at the next level.

[VTIME]

>Have no idea if Scaife is graduating or not this summer, but

>he's a football player at Semo (not basketball). He may

>have been ranked 3rd in his class at Vashon, but he

>certainly isn't ranked 3rd in his class at Semo. He's a

>punt returner that catches a few passes every now and then,

>nothing more nothing less.

Scaife headed into camp as a starter on the depth chart at wide receiver and was a good baseball and basketball player at Vashon. Arnold Britt was a good duel sport athlete at Vashon who played football and basketball. He just got his degree from Mizzou in December. He was a 4 year basketball player at Vashon and played football there.

[VTIME]

Taj, I'm so proud of you for doing some research on Boone. I remember him from his days with the box curl hairstyle. I'm glad you are hanging on my everyday and verifying my info. Its clear that you are a VTIME fan and that I am the life of this board. I'm glad to see my threads bring everyone together.

[volfan]

THey use to refer to Floyd back in the 70's as Flow jo, it was sort an inside PHL thing, but there was always rumors about Floyd batting for the other team, (not that there was anything wrong with that. b/c I have some friends that are that) it was just a name people gave him.

[p diddy]

I confine my info to the division I level. in the past 15 years, sean tunstall has been the only vashon player who played a key role on an ncaa tournament team. i can also add mckinney, his freshman year at mizzou to the list. for all the D-1 players that the school has produced, that's pretty bad.

bad boyz for life

[Taj79]

.. I am not hanging on your every word. I am doing my best to understand what the hell it is you're talking about. And with every post, you show just how bad your logic is and in this case, how unthorough your supporting facts are. I find your argument demonstrative of one certain point: Vashon basketball players do not succeed at the next level. With that point in hand, and with recruiting already a tremendous risk, why increase the odds of failing on numerous fronts by recruiting one of the Wolverine grads? I find your arguments entertaining, but its too easy to poke holes through.

Just so you know, I have a file at work so that every time you mention someone new or someone the U should be recruiting, the window pops open and I add another name to your list. We WILL revisit some of these success stories as well. Accountability, young man, accountability. You just can't prance onto some board and drop names and throw stuff around and expect some sort of respect (well, actually I guess you can but it won't draw iron here) just becasue you said so-and-so was this that or the other.

Sorry, Vee, hit somewhere else for that. I used to think you were a punk but I will give you credit (big deal on my part!) because you've demonstrated that you know St. Louis high shcool hoops. Which means you're real up on a mediocre talent bed. St. Louis has the Shootout, sure, but that's more hype onwho comes to town as opposed to who's in town.

[VTIME]

You're keeping a file on me? I am your hero. You guys cry and moan, but you really like having me around.

[VTIME]

I dont guarantee things. That being said, I can guarantee Johnny Hill will be a success at SEMO as long as he's healthy and eligible. He's one of the smartest players I've ever seen. He's efficient, unselfish and knows how to play the game. Oh yeah he can really shoot and has hops.