Question for MUTGR

[tseugnekillib]

Before my question, I must say that I enjoy your posts and insights.

Now my question. Are you surprised or amazed, at what seems like the majority of posters on the tigerboard, that don't see a problem with minor NCAA violations or even significant NCAA violations. It appears that the victim, the print media, or the prosecutor are seen as the problem and not the player or the coaching staff.

My guess is that these same fans/supporters would trade some NCAA violations for a Final Four appearance or would trade some significant violations for an NCAA championship. But perhaps I haven't read enough of the tigerboard postings to have the correct flavor.

If indeed minor and major violations are condoned by today's college students, or recent college grads, it makes one wonder how ethically and morally they will act in today's business world.

Am I reading the majority of the tigerboard correctly?

[Schasz]

It's not just the tigerboard...I see some of the same stupid comments made by MU supporters made on Bernie's Press Box. They are either in total denial or perhaps they are of the ilk to favor what the Execs at Enron did.

[thetorch]

I don't know how objective I would be if the program I followed was going to concievably blow their chance at a final four before the season even started. COuple that with the fact they have seen these things come and go with no punishment the past few years and there may be reason for optimism.

[Quality Is Job 1]

tseugnekillib, I'm not MUTGR, but as a Tigers fan, I feel I'm qualified to respond to your question. I've noticed the rationalization. For Tigers fans, the Tigers and the program's coaching staff are like an extension of their family, and it's no different than how Billikens fans feel about the Billiken program or how any fan feels about the team he or she roots for.

If a member of your family is accused of a crime, how likely are you to believe that the family member is guilty (assuming the family member's past isn't dysfunctional)? It's human nature to side with those closest to you. Therefore, to Tigers fans, Mizzou has done little, if anything, to warrant punishment, and Jessica Bunge and Kevin Crane (and Vahe Gregorian) have an ulterior motive for their actions.

To me, it's interesting that someone who was advertised as a detail-oriented and detail-conscious person (so much so that I remember a story about Quin Snyder's having the trash cans around Hearnes Center repainted so that they were consistent in color and a story that he submitted a book to Mike Alden during the hiring process that detailed his plans for the program) could now be running such a loose ship. Even so, I'd prefer to focus on what's going on the court, thank you. Human nature.

Last point: Just as Missouri fans are in denial about the dirty laundry in the Mizzou program, I believe SLU fans are at least naive to think that it's impossible for Lorenzo Romar and Cameron Dollar to have used some of the "techniques" they used at Washington while they were at SLU. Human nature. I'm not saying whether they did or didn't cheat (whether intentionally or "unintentionally") while they were at SLU, but I'm saying it's possible. Many SLU fans here deny that it's possible. Human nature.

[kshoe]

but I would guesstimate with 95% probability that Lorenzo and Cameron did not do the same activities here that they did at Washington.

Thing is is though, that Mizzou has already been proven to do that kind of stuff. Whether it is Lane Odom calling Rickey Clemmons 50 times during a 12 week period when you are only allowed 1 call per week or Quin jumping the gun on Conley, or the free flights for AJ and Paulding's mom's, or the "accidental" bump into with McBride during a dead period, Mizzou's recruiting has been shady from day one.

The NCAA hasn't deemed any of these incidents to be major in their own right (the Conley thing is still under review despite his reinstatement) but where there is smoke there is fire.

There has never been any smoke at SLU so thats why we find it hard to believe anything could be going on. The biggest piece of smoke people have on us is us not wanting to publicly disclose any secondary violations.

[MUTGR]

I have been suprised and disappointed with a majority of the responses to this whole affair. A minority of the posters appear to be troubled by it. There seem to be a few schools of thought on this issue:

1. The head in the sand group: He didn't do anything wrong.

2. The altruistic group: Quin is actually trying to do a poor kid a favor and should be congratulated. It's the NCAA that needs to change its rules.

3. The cynical group: He cheated, but everyone is doing it. This seems to be the majority opinion, along with #4 below. This one is particularly troubling to me, because I don't believe everyone is doing it or there would be a lot more universities caught.

4. The paranoid group: The post is just out to do a hatchet job.

Now, I can tell you there is no question in my mind the post has an anti-MU agenda, but I won't bore you with my theories on that. However, where I differ from most is MU only has themselves to blame: if they did things the right way, all the digging in the world wouldn't turn anything up.

5. The minority: a pattern of violations has clearly been established, and Quin's excuses don't wash.

I am now in category 5. I supported Quin early on. I defended the airplane gate stuff, brushed off the contact with McBride, etc. Anyone can make a few mistakes. But there has just been too much. He has no credibility with me, not that I matter.

I don't necessarily think he should be fired. If these latest allegations turn out to be nothing, and there is no adverse action from the NCAA, I probably would not fire Quin if I was Alden. Quin has a chance, I think, to put this stuff behind him and salvage his reputation. After all, if he runs a squeeky clean program for the next 10 years (at MU or wherever), most of this stuff will be long forgotten. If I was Alden, I would implement a zero tolerance policy with this guy. I will still root for MU, I still hope this blows over, and I still hope they put it together and win a final four next year. But I think these events have dampened my enthusiasm for the program, no question. I these latest allegations prove to be true, I believe Alden should fire Quin, and I believe he will. I am quite certain he is pissed.

[kshoe]

The statement that most jumped out at me was Alden's the day he kicked Rickey off the team when he said, "Quin has assured me there is nothing left to hide" or something of that jist.

Now from a timing standpoint, he knew at that point the Post was requesting the deposition transcripts and I assume he knew about the line of questioning concerning the clothes, the money and the cheating withing the deposition. If he did not know about the questions that came up in the depostion he is probably about ready to fire Quin right now. I find it hard to believe Q wouldn't have mentioned to Alden that Bunge claimed Rickey cheated and took cash and the DA questioned him about it.

It stands to reason then that none of the last week's news was really news to Alden. For that reason, I think Q's job is safe for now. Of course, if these allegations are proven or substantiated then Alden will have no choice but to fire him because Q lied directly to him.

That is my take on it.

[estiger]

There was no smoke because Romar did not win his recruiting battles with the big boys for great players when he was at SLU. If SLU had landed a couple the top 50 players they were recruiting, and beaten out the likes of KU or Michigan St., etc. for the services of those players, I suspect there may have been some accusations/smoke.

It is fair to say that MU fans are naive/blinded by loyalty in their response to the allegations and incidents surrounding Quin's program. I do not think Quin is a blatantly dirty coach, but I do think that he and his coaches are extremely aggresive, and that they are pushing the envelop. I also think that he learned his craft at Duke under a coach who is supposedly "squeaky clean." I think Quin's mentor operates in a situation where no one questions his tactics, so there is little scrutiny. I suspect Quin thought he could operate the same way here. He got an education in a hurry. Opposing coaches, the St. Louis media, and his own poor judgment in bringing Clemons into the program have landed him on the hot seat. He will now have to stay on the straight and narrow, or his career will be ruined.

I also think thicks makes a good point. It is delusional for SLU fans to think that Romar (a coaching disciple of the notorious Jim Harrick) was clean at SLU and then dirty a month later at Washington. He was simply a bigger threat for great players when he got to Washington, and his competitors tattletaled on him to keep him from being a threat for some great players.

I think that College Basketball is an unbelievably entertaining, but incredibly sleazy business. Everybody may not be doing it, but it sure seems like most are. It just depends on whether a coach is fortunate enough to keep the light from being shined on him and his program.

[tseugnekillib]

You suggested that if Romar violated recruiting rules at Washington, then he must have violated recruiting rules at SLU (and Pepperdine)as well!

I can only assume that same logic applies to Coach Q as well....if he gave promotional clothing/shoes to RC, then he must have given clothing/shoes to other players as well?

Personally, I don't believe Romar violated recruiting rules while at SLU. He may have wanted to, or thought about it,.....but in the end, his respect for his boss and the University president kept him honest. I'll hold that opinion until it is proven otherwise.

[Basketbill]

As for SLU fans I think we certainly are giving Romar the Benefit of the doubt, but Estiger, it is not just that They did not win those recruits, some of MU violations (ie the McBride meeting) did not result in winning. Romar had three years to make those mistakes, and to our knowledge did not, so there is no basis to doubt. Now is it possible yes I think 85% he was squeeky clean here.

As for Mizzou fans to some extent I cannot blame the head in the sand fan, denial is a wonderful defense mechanism. However, for those who think this is just status quo if you want to play with the big boys I say you are taking a ethical step that I would not support monetarily. It is wrong. It is negatively affecting the whole University, and is a bad example for our society.

What has this fiasco said to the women who go to Mizzou? It is ok if an athlete hurts you, assualts you you will not be kicked out (but you will want to leave anyway) and your attacker will serve a one game suspension, stay on the team cause we might make the Final Four, and then we will suspend him for a year, but let him play at the chancellors house on the 4th of July......and the taxpayers of Missouri will continue to pay for his tuition and board!!!

I said before in a previous post I appreciate MUTGR's objectivity, and I hope we are all as objective if the shoe (or flip flop) was on the other foot....

[SLU8592]

Very astute summary and I agree with your perspective on the matter.

Quin has not shown the intelligence one would expect from someone with both an undergrad and J.D. from Duke. Quin's comments reveal to me someone who is not honest and forthcoming. This clothing thing to me is somewhat inconsequential except as to how Quin has responded. The same was true with the Conley situation. In this respect, Quin seems a bit like Rick Neuheisel. One would think these coaches would see how others have fallen and do some self assessment and correction. This was Quin's first head coaching job, right? He should be given a chance to correct himself, but he should do so right now.

I agree as to the PD bias and would add that I believe SLU and MU have something in common here.

[cheeseman]

MUTIGR - your comments are not only interesting but objective. Estiger - I for one when the Romar issue came up at WU was concerned that his behavior could have been the same at SLU. The two things I would point out that may have created the situation at WU are: 1. the huge pressure to win at WU - the program has been in a free fall for some time and they invested a large sum of money and effort to upgrade it. The president gave her personal assurance that the BB program would improve. 2. Romar was the third or fourth choice and he was under self imposed pressure to do well as is is coaching staff so as to show everyone that they should have been the first choice. As far as Romar and his tenure at SLU is concerned - less pressure to win immediately as shown by his ability to be here for 3 years and no real pressure to leave and that he was the school's first choice so no pressure to prove yourself. It would seem that if there was anything substantial that he did wrong at SLU then the problems he had at WU would have naturally caused the NCAA to take a look at us.

[ACE]

I got to know Lorenzo a little bit while he was here and knew him to be a man of great integrity. I would be shocked if his tenure here was corrupt. The case at Washington sounds like it was just Dollar being a little overzealous. Look at Romar's recruiting here. I believe it was honest because the talent he got ranged from mediocre to crappy.

Keep in mind that these are only theories thrown out there by desparate Mizzou fans. They're under fire so they're trying to deflect attention from their own issues. It's nonsense.

[cheeseman]

I see your point but the truth is that the thought of wrong doing has to at least cross your mind. As I said, if there was anything to it, it would have come out by now given all the problems he has had at WU.