What Is SLU Hiding?

[SLU8592]

I didn't read an article-- I quit subscribing to the Post several months ago. I just got the impression from reading some of the posts, that Vahe was requesting this information as part of his own personal quest. I stand corrected, then, in accusing Vahe of being an NCAA vigilante.

The point remains, though, voluntarily subjecting yourself to scrutiny makes absolutely no sense. Would you volunteer for an IRS type examination to be made public? Even if you manage to properly apply the rules, there is information you want kept private and the process as a whole is tedious.

Finally, common sense would dictate that NCAA resources (and independent investigation for that matter) are better spent looking at the bigger programs that get the higher rated athletes. This seems to be where rules are bent, broken, ignored, misinterpreted, etc. If a somewhat high profile player transfers to SLU suddenly (like Conley to Mizzou), I would anticipate questions raised. However, I don't recall SLU getting such a player.

I must be in a small minority. I wouldn't mind at all if both SLU and Mizzou do well.

[jwd789]

Actually they did end up with a few players off that team (Brian Randle and Richard McBride) and they are recruiting another from that team now (Shaun Livingston). Allegedly Tubby Smith talked to Conley's mother longer than anyone. He even called her numerous times. So I doubt the time she spent talking to the coaches made a difference where he went.

[billiken_roy]

you think that if pretty q and/or his staff did not talk to conley's mother one bit. just didnt even return the calls or hung up on her that conley would have still went to missouri? according to the rules, that is what snyder was supposed to have done. forget about tubby or other coaches. just answer the question above. had snyder never returned a single call or hung up without saying a word prior to conley being released by vmi do you think missouri would have gotten conley? the fact they did talk created an advantage.

as to the ft sooey booster, ok, there are illinois players and potential recruits on that team. still is the booster previously connected with any of the players? we dont know. so the ncaa ruling isnt able to be fairly judged is it.

[jwd789]

Conley may have come anyway, we don't know. He did know Snyder already and that's why we were at the top of his list. He met him in our recruitment of Kleiza. Look, do you really think a kid doesn't transfer without looking at other schools first to see what's out there? Kids want to know if a scholly awaits them before giving up one. I'm sure you'd make a big stink if Bill Laurie gave 2,000 dollars to the STL eagles and then players off that team start coming to Mizzou in droves. It also is funny how you defend Washington's illegal contact with recruits, but you were all over Snyder for his contact with McBride and Iguodala a few years ago. You just seem a little hypocrytical on some of these issues.

[billiken_roy]

where have i defended washington's illegal contacts? i have said on numerous occasions that dollar should have been fired. where have i defended washington other than to say today that dollar proved he wasnt very polished at his cheating thus likely hadnt done it before?

as to the team sponsorship thing, again, i asked if the booster had a longtime relationship with any player or even the team? if laurie basically adopts a kid in junior high and takes care of him thru high school and that path includes aau teams, so be it. grant proved the ncaa will allow that. i wasnt supporting either side. only pointing out that we dont know the other side. i couldnt care less about the illini.

however, you are taking on the typical tiger fan view that "if the tigers are in trouble everyone should be in trouble too". glad to see you really want to clean things up in tigerville.

[Quality Is Job 1]

My feeling is that AJ was baiting, and quite a few SLU fans took the bait -- and repeatedly.

And I guess now I'm biting now, too. Roy wrote, "dont even try to bring that back to slu. it plain and simple wasnt allowed." That reminds me of the part of the article where SLU faculty athletics representative speaks about the culture among the coaches at SLU. Vahe wrote:

>>Each of the three schools says it tries to create an atmosphere that discourages pushing the envelope and rejects those inclined to cheat. "If we had a coach who was really coloring things outside the lines, I think they would be recognized and shunned by other coaches," Ross said. "It's like they wouldn't fit in. I tend to think a good culture will sniff that person out."

That, right there, suggests to me that no SLU basketball coach would have cheated as Cameron Dollar did when he got to Washingon.

One of the things that Vahe discussed in the story was intent. Sure, it's possible that SLU did inadvertently have some secondary violations that they self reported to the NCAA, but as long as they were indeed inadvertent and self reported to the *NCAA*, then SLU did NOTHING unethical. Not releasing that information to media is not unethical, as AJ suggests. (And his comeback of "*high* ethical standards" doesn't hold water, because either something is ethical or unethical -- there's no such thing as "highly ethical" just as there's no such thing as "somewhat ethical." With ethics, you take out the gray area that Missouri seems to be treading in.) AJ, if you decided to act on your Fifth Amendment right and not testify and I called you unethical and said you must be guilty because you're trying to hide something, how would you feel?

Back to "intent." With Missouri's coaching staff, there APPEARS to be the **intent** to gain an advantage by some of their secondary violation mistakes. The facts that they don't tend to self-report their violations until media have made light of the violations AND that they didn't log all of their recruiting phone calls is mighty suspicious. It seems that the intent is to do anything they can to win, even if a rule or two must be bent.

I hope that Quin Snyder demonstrates sincerity about running a clean program by keeping his nose clean and trying extra hard to make sure he's within the rules with every step he and his staff take. Missouri's compliance director should be very tired of hearing from him on her cell phone and pager! I'd hate for a Final Four or National Championship run to be officially stricken from the NCAA record books as a result of his shenanigans.

[aj_arete]

First off, I think we're in full agreement regarding Mizzou's role here. I agree wholeheartedly with your stance there.

Secondly, I must admit that I'm far from an ethics expert, but I see ethics entailing more than two levels, good and bad. As for SLU's ethical role with the media, I would expect them to abide by a reasonable media request if it serves a public good. In this instance, it would have been helpful to see how SLU compared with Mizzou and the Illini in NCAA compliance. While one can argue that Vahe sifting through SLU's records would be unreasonable based on their recent, clean record, I still don't see where an alternative presentation of their NCAA compliance would have been unreasonable.

Please note that when I discussed SLU's ethical activity, I was not referring to their recruiting activities. Since they chosed to not present any information, no one can definitively make a positive or negative judgement on their recruiting practices.

[Taj79]

.... is actually a question .... given today's age of internet enlightenment, you mean to tell me there isn't a web page one can go to under "NCAA" and click on something like "self reports" that gives one all this information?

I suspect not and in that regard there must be a reason for it not to be public knowledge even in the eyes of the NCAA. What if Vahe subpoened or FOIA the NCAA and asked for SLU's records? Doesn't seem like that hard of a thing to do. Front door .... slam! Back door .... hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Maybe the NCAA is a private organization as well and not subject to FOIA rules. If that's the case, are they then "unethical" as well? There's a debate we don't have time for. Please ignore it.

[aj_arete]

As Thicks said, I just wanted to liven up the board activity. Things were getting too slow here... ;-)

[Quality Is Job 1]

I understand you want your curiosity to be satisfied, but SLU is not accountable to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch or to the public at large. It's accountable to Conference USA and the NCAA. If they've reported to the NCAA, that's all that's necessary. The Post and the rest of us don't need to know until we need to know, ie, if punishable violations have occurred.

Illinois had several self-reported violations, but we didn't hear about them until now. The problem is that Missouri is suffering from "where there's smoke, there must be fire" logic.

[AlumniFan]

This has nothing to do with ethics. It has to do with choice and the right to privacy. Why do you HATE SLU so much? Your comments are overwhelmingly anti-SLU. GO AWAY!

[AlumniFan]

LOOPHOLE - a means of evading an obligation.

This definition is from Webster's New World Dictionary.

SLU has no obligation to provide this data. You, however, should familiarize yourself with the proper uses of the English language.

P.S. OBLIGATION - a binding contract or promise (same source)

[Box and Won]

for summing this up perfectly. Woolard's decision to not talk to Vahe has absolutely nothing to do with ethics!

[ACE]

You livened the board up by making as a$$ of yourself again. Well done!

[SLU8592]

Unfortunately, the "bait" cast was an inference that flies in the face of core values in this country. AJ infers that SLU's failure to voluntarily open itself to examination is paramount to an admission of guilt. In AJ's world, the Fourth and Fifth Amendments are unacceptable, as one who would invoke either is automatically tacitly admitting guilt.

I'm no big fan of the ACLU, but even I can appreciate an institution's right to be free from such an intrusion as AJ deems acceptable in the social realm. It's one thing if there is "smoke" to investigate. An investigation may be necessary in such a case and evidence that would give rise to a warrant may compel disclosure. Here, though, it appears AJ is manufacturing the smoke. Accordingly, while the relationship of smoke and fire is reasonable, one must first actually have some legitimate smoke.

[cheeseman]

Those of who said that if MU or IL did not have to release the records then they would not have are correct. Nobody in business or government releases any information that they do not have to - period. In this case SLU has an advantage and MU and IL do not. If SLU had released the information then they technically would open themselves up to a privacy issue for anyone whose name was on it. MU and IL have the advantage of hiding behind the law which says they have to release it so no one can hold them legally responsible. It does not even sound like that the reporters were all that surprised by not having access to the recordss.

[aj_arete]

but couldn't help responding to my favorite scholarly friend, AlumniFan. It's certainly a pleasure reading your insightful comments, such as defining loophole for me. Thanks, buddy!

So are you suggesting that SLU doesn't have an OBLIGATION to cooperate with reasonable media requests?

Now one can argue whether Vahe's request was reasonable or not based on SLU's reputation, as Thicks implied.

Surely, AlumniFan, you aren't suggesting that SLU shouldn't be forthright with the media?? Please tell me that is not the case...

[billiken_roy]

not being forthright alludes that the billikens are lying or misleading someone. i dont think the program has done anything or had incidents that would make anyone think that is the case.

you need to just drop it aj. the billikens glimmering record with the ncaa in recent years is enough testimony that there is no story here. and the fact that vahe gives it a cursory mention and then drops it proves to me that the media doesnt believe there is a concern as well.

as to playing semantics with the word "obligation", of course the fans of the billikens want the billikens to cooperate with the press on real issues and results. but i would guess there are few billiken faithful that want the billikens to get in the middle of the tiger and vahe's little feud. two different issues. dr ross and doug woolard are doing the right thing staying out of this. now if there was truly an issue to deal with rather than a fishing expedition, then you might have something to grab onto.

btw aj, i forget, did you comment on the fact that pretty q refused to cooperate on this story? the fact that the tigers are truly in the middle of the smoke storm on these issues would seem to me to make pretty q's "obligation" a little more necessary than anyone's. yet all you want to focus on is the billikens on this issue.

[Box and Won]

nm

[AlumniFan]

Can you read?