kevinfootes Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 When you look at all of the moves over the years, Valley, Metro, MCC, GMC, CUSA, A10, how long do we think this one will last? Each move made some sense at the time, but overall it's hard to build real history and rivalries with all of the movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I still think the 16 team Big East is ultimately doomed to implode sometime down the line. A few more years of NCAA snubs for a team like Cincinnati, years of Louisville not making the NCAA, years of DePaul not even making the Big East Tournament, year after year of Notre Dame struggling to get in the NIT, will eventually take their toll. Many think that the Big East will eventually split into two conferences, one for the football playing schools and one for Catholic basketball playing schools. Notre Dame is the big wild card, because ND remains an independent in football. If that schism ultimately happens, then hopefully SLU has positioned itself to join the conference with the non-football schools. The A-10 is giving SLU exposure on the East Coast. Some of the A-10 followers think the non-football playing schools will eventually join up with many of the A-10 schools, either in the A-10 itself or in a new league. But there are all kinds of gremlins and old wounds, like the Villanova situation in Philadelphia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 the rumor i keep hearing on various message boards is that the a-10 and big east will combine in a manner that will create 3 conferences that are determined mainly by football non-football and secondary geography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 If that ultimately happens, then the long term will prove that SLU made the right move going to the A-10 over the MVC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Where are these rumors coming from? I feel the Big Easy will fracture as well, but UC and UL aren't leaving any time soon. Both have football teams and both want that BCS revenue plus the B-E tourney $$ plus the NCAA $$. Where else are they gonna get those kind of $$. Now maybe the Big East could take over the A-10 and form 3 units: FB schools, East Coast hoops, and Midwest hoops. I'd still rather see the all Papal all hoops conference though, with ND in the midwest division. Then you have instant rivalries. But get rid of the bottom feeders in the A-10. Charlotte ought to think about turning Jebbie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gister Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 The sports doctor (expert) from Webster University commented, a few weeks ago, that he did not think SLU would be in the A-10 all that long. However, his belief was that a new conference of midwest schools might be the answer. He may have mentioned Creighton, but I can't remember any other schools being listed. It did not involve schools in the Big East, which surprised me. I think the general feeling is that the Big East would eventually implode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I'm not all that impressed with the A-10 right now, but it's a good fit for us at this moment in time. The only way a mid west conference is better would be the inclusion of Marquette, DePaul, and, Lord forgive me, ND. But I don't see them leaving the Big East unless they are forced out somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 If you took all of the Catholic schools from the Midwest (poaching teams from the A10, Big East, MVC and Horizon League) and put them in a single conference, it would contain nine teams and look like this: SLU Xavier Dayton Marquette DePaul Creighton Notre Dame Detroit-Mercy Loyola-Chi Not bad. We could have some great rivalries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 If the Big East split up by football/non-football, the football schools would be: Cincinnati UConn Louisville Pitt Rutgers South Florida Syracuse West Virginia (Eight schools) The non-football schools would be: Villanova Georgetown Providence Seton Hall St. John's (Five schools) If you added the A10 Catholic/non-football schools to the conference, you would add: St. Joe's LaSalle Fordham St. Bonaventure Duquesne For a total of ten schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLouBlue Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I don't see any way that happens. I don't think ND would go to a midwest league, they want their east coast presence. I don't think you get Marquette or DePaul without getting ND. At one time I thought it would be fun to have a Catholic League or something along those lines, now I am not sure. I think conferences need a mix of state and private schools in order to succeed. Look at the A10, there are too many small private schools that just don't have the resources to compete. While the state schools struggle to compete at times generally they have more resources behind them. Just guessing, but say state schools enrollments run normally around 15k while your normal private school is at 6k, that is quite a difference in number of alumni and fans. A conference with just private schools is just not the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I am confused - you left out most of the A10 in this scenerion. What happens to them? Roy, can you explain what you mean by secondary geographic? The Papal conf. will not happen because Marquette and DePaul will not give up the big $ from the Big East. Also, even though we changed conferences a lot - many of the same schools stayed together with us such as Cincy and Louisville including DePaul and Marquette at times. I also think the proposal that 72 made has two bottom feeders in it - Chicago Loy. and Det.Mercy. You can leave them out in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 The Midwest Catholic Conference is the one that makes so much sense that it may never happen. If ND refuses to play ball, there would still be an 8 team league: Dayton DePaul Marquette Saint Louis Xavier Creighton Loyola Chicago Detroit There are still several problems: 1. DePaul does not want to share Chicago with Loyola. Frankly, I have never understood why Loyola is not stronger in hoops. 2. Marquette likes that East Coast exposure too. 3. Both Marquette and DePaul are with ND now and will not want to give that up. If ND could be persuaded to be a part of the Catholic Conference, it would probably happen. Perhaps some alignment could be made with the East Coast Catholic schools playing in 2 divisions, an Eastern Division and a Midwest Division. The Eastern Division would have: Villanova St. Joseph's LaSalle Georgetown Seton Hall St. John's Fordham Providence Charlotte would be a nomad. Really, Charlotte and Richmond should go to the Colonial, but Charlotte would balk at that. Perhaps we could take in Charlotte, but geography and similar-type schools would still be issues. A-10 bottom feeders St. Bonaventure and Duquesne would be better off in the Metro Atlantic. That leaves George Washington, Temple, Rhode Island, and UMass to be placed. The Eastern Division could take them. Old festering Big East issues would have to be solved: the Georgetown-George Washington situation in D.C., the Villanova v. the 3 A-10 schools situation in Philadelphia, the Providence-URI situation. Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida would stay with the other Big East football schools. Temple could join them if Temple could ever get its D-1 football program up to respectability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I was just forming an east coast version of the Midwest Catholic Conference made up of teams from the Big East and A10. Don't really have the time or inclination to assign a new conference to the remaining A10 schools in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box and Won Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I'm always surprised that the Catholic schools don't work together to elevate themselves as a group by either forming a conference or by at least playing each other on a yearly basis. There has to be a way to make money while raise the profile of Catholic universities at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Yes. It would seem that they could all help each other, instead of this out for #1 competition. I've never thought that SLU was a culprit in the latter. But the same cannot be said for others. It would be nice to get a non-conference series going with DePaul, so SLU could at least keep a relationship with DPU in light of expectant future events. Out here, the WCC is composed of 7 Catholic schools and Pepperdine, and we just don't see things like the unique situation of Notre Dame or schools like DePaul and Marquette bolting for the Big East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 any thing can be negotiated. and if the big east football schools want the non-football schools out, they can agree to share revenues for a limited period of time or even make a bonus payout of some sort. also, i do not think, (but not sure, if someone else knows conclusively please chime in) that the schools split the ncaa money evenly. i agree at least a portion is potted, but i also think the more successful a school is the more they get to keep themselves as well. thus, if depaul and marquette down the road arent consistently splitting money due to poor play as much as originally assumed would happen, they might like the idea of becoming a bigger fish in a smaller pond instead. by secondary geographically, i believe the number one reason this split/new conference alignment will eventually happen will be for football reasons. and then second it will be finalized somewhat geographically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STLfan Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 The Rpi's for this conference SLU - 101 Xavier - 77 Dayton - 183 Marquette - 31 DePaul - 91 Creighton - 39 Notre Dame - 95 Detroit-Mercy - 178 Loyola-Chi - 138 Attendance for the 2004-2005 season SLU - 8,030 Xavier - 9,903 Dayton - 12,569 Marquette - 11,965 DePaul - 9,159 Creighton - 11,208 Notre Dame - 10,239 Detroit-Mercy - 2,449 Loyola-Chi - 2,451 Even though they aren't Catholic if you replace Detroit and Loyola with Private universities Bradley and Drake and it would be a better conference. Plus I think it would connect the states better. It would be Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. Some decent Markets in there too. St. Louis, Cincinnati, Dayton, Milwaukee, Chicago, Omaha, and Des Moines. Another private university to consider would be Butler. They play in a historic feildhouse that can seat I beleive 10,000 and we would add Indianapolis. Bradley RPI - 33 Attendance - 9,337 Drake RPI - 175 Attendance - 4,810 Butler RPI - 82 Attendance - 3,495 If Notre Dame won't come I think a league of SLU, Xavier, Dayton, Marquette, DePaul, Creighton, Bradley, Drake, and Butler would be a good conference that could last a while. There would only be 9 teams so everyone could play each other twice durring conference play. I think the above conference could get between 3-4 bids every year. I would love to see a midwest conference made from all private universities. The only thing that we can do right now though is continure to improve our program and make it more appealing and maybe even have a bigger say in how things end up in the next conference shift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLouBlue Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 It is up to each conference on how it wants to split up their NCAA money. I seem to remember hearing that in the old CUSA the schools that earned the points in tournament play received money based off that, but the majority was still split between all conference members. No idea how the BE splits it's money. Also in the BE though only the football schools receive a share of the football money, none of the football money goes to the non-football schools. At least that is how I remember hearing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 -isn't the big east the starting point with all of this unravelment, as some see their demise as a certainty -i believe the demise is predicted to come at the end of the tv contracts for bball and fball which going on memory here are 4 or 5 more yrs -is nd a draw in hoops?? -how big a factor would nd be in determining the quality of a new conf?? -it is my opinion the main reason to be in the a10 now is positioning for the next conf shuffle and our inclusion in whatever comes after will be greatly enhanced by having very successful hoops teams, see marq in the big east, and we got some steps to climb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfootes Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 SLU has been switching conferences for 30 years and has had only moderate success over that time. Would they be better off staying someplace instead of constantly jockeying for the next move? Again, I understand why some of the moves were made, but I think developing some long term rivalries and traditions would be good for the program. Will we ever land? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtside Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 ...is when current Big East contract ends. So...if no extension between now and then...that is the chance. I know this topic has been covered many times...but... Notre Dame and Marquette would not join a Midwest League. I don't want to say never ever etc...but you get the idea. I'll take ND first. Has anybody here listened to AD Kevin White talk? You would be re-thinking the ideas as long as he is AD. Most of ND's talk has been whether they would leave the Big East for either the ACC or Big Ten. They will always be a football independent unless they joined these leagues. White said publicly in a Q and A last week that ND is in Big East for long haul, and they love the conference for all sports, and like keeping football independent. They like the independent football money...like making any schedule they want. They do very well in the other non-revenue sports. Hoops can be more competitive again. They lost 7-8 games by total of 15 points this year. Tough schedule etc... Marquette, loving being in Big East. finished 4th in first year with young club. With good recruits coming in next couple of years they figure to be in top part of the Big East through the end of that 2011 deal. Some of their most recent recruits are from NJ, NY etc...They love the conference. Talk is of Big East going to 18 conference games from 16 to eliminate the unbalance scheduling. S Florida doesn't fit for hoops...but many feel they are a football sleeping giant...already vastly improved....HUGE 40,000 plus school. They want Florida area for football. Hypothetically if something happened to Big East....in order to get the above two schools...Georgetown, Nova need to be in mix. .....and some other top level hoops programs in or near big markets. The ONLY hope some may have is a Catholic league. Schools like Drake or Bradley etc...have a ZERO and NEGATIVE chance of being in a conference with ND etc...NONE. or Butler etc...and these beyond far fetched names mentioned. It would be very tough for some of the A-10 teams to be in a league with some of them...schools who haven't been good at hoops, have zero commitment...etc... Any school not near a large market, with no commitment to hoops, etc...won't have a chance. It wouldn't surprise me to see the same current set up continue beyond 2011. It is certainly not a given at all it will change in 2011. Marquette, DePaul, U of L and Cincy....will be competitive most years in hoops. The worst one this year was DePaul and they happen to be in 3rd largest market. I posted this one other time...purely in the dream category....but if there was a hypothetical Catholic league...I would have.....I like 12 team leagues.....so.... Georgetown ND Villanova DePaul MU SLU Xavier Seton Hall St. Joes St. John's and a need to fill two spots....Creighton imo doesn't really fit for multiple reasons...especially geographically...but they are a possibility. Dayton would have to step it up in play...etc... I just don't see a conference like this. Always possible. Attendance figures aren't as important as media markets. One could lobby for a Catholic conference...but it would need ND, G-Town, MU etc..to have a higher profile. BC would be great to have in a conference but they love ACC and aren't leaving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Other than the move from the Metro to the old Midwestern City (later known as the MCC and now the Horizon), I don't think SLU was driving the truck for most of its conference shifts. The move from the Missouri Valley to the Metro occurred during my youth, although I do remember it. Louisville, Cincinnati, the then Memphis State (now Memphis), and SLU were all in the Missouri Valley. I still remember the old Missouri Valley Game of the Week that came on the air at 12:30 with Easy Ed Macauley at the mike. The Valley had expanded to distant locales like West Texas State and New Mexico State. Thus, U of L, UC, MSU, and SLU joined with Tulane and Georgia Tech to form the original Metro. The goal was to have the bigger TV markets. I really don't know if SLU led that move to the Metro, or if SLU followed the others. But that killed the old SLU rivalry with Bradley. SLU hoops was at rock bottom during the Metro days. Therefore, largely to resuscitate the program, SLU moved to the MCC, where it would be able to rebuild the program and have a better chance to compete. I remember how relieved we were at the time because there were rumors that SLU would drop to D-2. Although Marquette and Dayton eventually joined SLU in the MCC, DePaul refused, I suspect due to the presence of Loyola Chicago. In any event, DePaul was the driving force behind the formation of the Great Midwest Conference, which I thought had great potential. Although Cincinnati and Memphis State were reunited with SLU in the GMC, Louisville stayed in the Metro. But before long the GMC and Metro engaged in a de facto merger to form Conference USA, with Dayton snubbed, reportedly by Cincinnati. Next came the recent domino effect that resulted in Marquette, DePaul, Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida leaving C-USA for the Big East. SLU could not really stay in what was to become of C-USA. The choice was a return to the MVC after three decades away or the A-10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Area Billiken Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Louisville: perennial NCAA power- NIT in 2006. Cincinnati: another perennial NCAA participant; snubbed in 2006 and relegated to the NIT. Notre Dame: NIT year after year; had to beat DePaul late to even make the Big East Tournament. Quite frankly, ND has been overrated in hoops for a long time. Although it would be nice to have ND in a Midwest Catholic Conference, it is not a necessity, unless Marquette and DePaul would not come along without ND. Marquette: a real sore spot among some in the SLU fandom. SLU routinely beat Marquette during the Spoonball days, and SLU outdrew Marquette during those days. Marquette was great earlier under Al McGuire, and the program sustained under Hank Raymonds. But Marquette then experienced its own decline for some time under Dukiet and Deane. Spoon routinely outcoached Deane. Larry Hughes once scored 40 points at the Bradley Center against Marquette. Yes, Marquette got Dwayne Wade and went to the Final Four under Tom Creane, but we will see how well Marquette sustains long term in the Big East. That being said, I was very surprised by Marquette's success in the Big East this year, especially playing all those freshmen. DePaul: Just how many years will DePaul accept not even qualifying for the Big East Tournament? South Florida: All football; a basketball graveyard at this time. Something has to happen to this 16 team Big East behemoth, that devoured its own this year. A few more years of that, and the winds of change will be blowing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MU88 Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 MU would not join a midwest conference unless they were left with no other choice. Right now, according to someone in athletic department, MU believes that the BE is trying out programs. Eventually, the BE will contract to 12 and MU is hoping to one of the 12. The football schools simply do not believe that there are any viable candidates outside the conference for expansion. MU is spending more on athletics than any other non-football school (over $20 million per year) and more than USF. I wonder why some think MU won't be able to compete. MU's hoops budget is the third highest in the country according to a Wall Street Journal article earlier this week. In the event the BE splits along the football and bball lines, I would guess the 8 BE bball schools would stay together and maybe add 1 or 2 teams. There is probably no financial advantage to adding more. I would suspect schools like Holy Cross, SLU, X, Dayton and Creighton would be candidates. I don't think there is any chance for an A-10 merger. Too many bottom dwellers in the A-10. Would a public school be a candidate? Maybe. There are political reasons to do that. I think you have look at the school or schools that are the most successful in 2009. It is that school that will be the favorite to join the BE bball schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfootes Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 I don't remember Marquette or Dayton eing in the MCC. Marquette held on to the independent status for a long time. I remember Butler, Detroit, Xavier, Oral Roberts, Loyola, Evansville...somebody please correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't remember Marquette in there. Maybe it was the last year that SLU was in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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