LA Rams

[RiseAndGrind]

You're kidding, right? Comparing one of the 3 or 4 major cities to StL. Wow!!

If anyone thinks losing another NFL team is going to help this metropolitan area add and/or retain quality companies has a much different perspective than I do. The area has the highest "brain drain" of any city in the country. This is only going to continue, which will continue the lack of real growth in the area. An NFL team, by itself, won't change this, but losing another team will only continue the perspective from those outside our area that we are an area with lots of issues.

By the way, have you ever heard of the NFL Sunday ticket. You can watch any game you choose. Revolutionary! You might want to try it out next year. Oh wait a minute, that might mean you'll have to spend a buck for something.

Of the metropolitan areas with the most populous city centers, Washington and Philadelphia showed the largest increases of young adults living there, at 75 and 78 percent. Other cities that have made big gains in that category are Baltimore, Los Angeles, San Diego, Dallas, Miami and St. Louis. Washington also had the largest share of young college graduates over all, at 8.1 percent.

St. Louis also ranked # 12 in Percent change in the number of college graduates aged 25 to 34, from 2000 to 2012 , with a 26% increase.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/20/upshot/where-young-college-graduates-are-choosing-to-live.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

[slu72 fan]

Of the metropolitan areas with the most populous city centers, Washington and Philadelphia showed the largest increases of young adults living there, at 75 and 78 percent. Other cities that have made big gains in that category are Baltimore, Los Angeles, San Diego, Dallas, Miami and St. Louis. Washington also had the largest share of young college graduates over all, at 8.1 percent.[/size]

St. Louis also ranked # 12 in Percent change in the number of college graduates aged 25 to 34, from 2000 to 2012 , with a 26% increase.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/20/upshot/where-young-college-graduates-are-choosing-to-live.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

Go check the Federal Reserve who tracks it. It's not a question of how many graduate, but how many stay, or return, to the area they came from. I'm not saying StL kids don't go to college and graduate. They don't come back to StL because, among other reasons, they can't find JOBS that they deem desirable.

[slu72 fan]

I'm done talking about Rams, Bills Forever!!!

[RiseAndGrind]

Go check the Federal Reserve who tracks it. It's not a question of how many graduate, but how many stay, or return, to the area they came from. I'm not saying StL kids don't go to college and graduate. They don't come back to StL because, among other reasons, they can't find JOBS that they deem desirable.

The name of the article was "Where Young College Graduates Are Choosing to Live."

Not trying to argue. STL has its challenges. That's for sure. I just disagree that losing the Rams will result in corporate relocation or a contined/new brain drain.

GO BILLS!

[Pistol]

Could it really be chalked up to 'failed leadership' if they leave?

I think a better example of failed leadership is giving the team such a sweetheart deal to move to STL in the 90s at the expense of local taxpayers. One of the worst stadium deals of all time, hands down.

Good leadership would've never kowtowed so embarrassingly in the first place.

I also don't buy the NFL leaving as an economy destroyer. It never brought that much to the economy in the first place. 10 games a season, including the preseason games. And because the NFL doesn't release its schedule until April, it was impossible for St. Louis to be considered for large conventions from August to January. Which is ironic, because the whole stadium deal was sold as an expansion of the convention center and our convention-landing capabilities.

It would be a failure of leadership to give the team whatever it wants now. Learn from our mistakes - let them go.

[SShoe]

Could it really be chalked up to 'failed leadership' if they leave?

I think a better example of failed leadership is giving the team such a sweetheart deal to move to STL in the 90s at the expense of local taxpayers. One of the worst stadium deals of all time, hands down.

Good leadership would've never kowtowed so embarrassingly in the first place.

I also don't buy the NFL leaving as an economy destroyer. It never brought that much to the economy in the first place. 10 games a season, including the preseason games. And because the NFL doesn't release its schedule until April, it was impossible for St. Louis to be considered for large conventions from August to January. Which is ironic, because the whole stadium deal was sold as an expansion of the convention center and our convention-landing capabilities.

It would be a failure of leadership to give the team whatever it wants now. Learn from our mistakes - let them go

Agreed. The economic value of an NFL franchise to a city is overstated. Many of the top performing metros (Austin, Raleigh, Provo, Salt Lake, Portland, etc.) are not big professional sports cities. Other factors such as presence of universities, tech research, energy industry, climate, good transportation networks, geography all play far greater roles. Part of the failed leadership in this region is the thinking that big ticket items (sports stadiums, casinos, convention centers, etc.) are the keys to a strong local economy. Politicians like it because they can participate in ribbon cuttings and point to concrete structures as signs of progress. It's things like the stats from the article that RiseandGrind posted that are true barometers of improvement, but those are harder to tout.

[milwaukeebill]

So when are the bonds for the dome scheduled to be payed off? 2024? And how much are those payments? If there is no more bond payments presumably the city and county could spend that money on more useful things....

[brianstl]

Agreed. The economic value of an NFL franchise to a city is overstated. Many of the top performing metros (Austin, Raleigh, Provo, Salt Lake, Portland, etc.) are not big professional sports cities. Other factors such as presence of universities, tech research, energy industry, climate, good transportation networks, geography all play far greater roles. Part of the failed leadership in this region is the thinking that big ticket items (sports stadiums, casinos, convention centers, etc.) are the keys to a strong local economy. Politicians like it because they can participate in ribbon cuttings and point to concrete structures as signs of progress. It's things like the stats from the article that RiseandGrind posted that are true barometers of improvement, but those are harder to tout.

Politicians and civic leaders from this area have a history of liking these things because they always turn out to be a way to line their pockets or those of their campaign donors.

[SShoe]

So when are the bonds for the dome scheduled to be payed off? 2024? And how much are those payments? If there is no more bond payments presumably the city and county could spend that money on more useful things....

I believe it's $24 million per year in annual bonds and maintenance paid for by the city, county, and state through 2024.

Presumably the region could start spending additional money on:

Road repair and maintenance

Metrolink or other public transit expansion

Reducing landing fees at Lambert (would be my #1)

Early education

Secondary education

Additional police

Parks and recreation - new regional trails

Or they could pocket it and give us all a little tax relief, so we can all order NFL Sunday Ticket.

[SShoe]

Politicians and civic leaders from this area have a history of liking these things because they always turn out to be a way to line their pockets or those of their campaign donors.

That too.

[Box and Won]

Agreed. The economic value of an NFL franchise to a city is overstated. Many of the top performing metros (Austin, Raleigh, Provo, Salt Lake, Portland, etc.) are not big professional sports cities. Other factors such as presence of universities, tech research, energy industry, climate, good transportation networks, geography all play far greater roles. Part of the failed leadership in this region is the thinking that big ticket items (sports stadiums, casinos, convention centers, etc.) are the keys to a strong local economy. Politicians like it because they can participate in ribbon cuttings and point to concrete structures as signs of progress. It's things like the stats from the article that RiseandGrind posted that are true barometers of improvement, but those are harder to tout.

Right. An NFL franchise is more of a side effect that comes with having a healthy city than the source of a city's health. Cities like Charlotte and Nashville became NFL cities by first investing in themselves and their economies.

[WestCoastBilliken]

Of the metropolitan areas with the most populous city centers, Washington and Philadelphia showed the largest increases of young adults living there, at 75 and 78 percent. Other cities that have made big gains in that category are Baltimore, Los Angeles, San Diego, Dallas, Miami and St. Louis. Washington also had the largest share of young college graduates over all, at 8.1 percent.

St. Louis also ranked # 12 in Percent change in the number of college graduates aged 25 to 34, from 2000 to 2012 , with a 26% increase.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/20/upshot/where-young-college-graduates-are-choosing-to-live.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

I think the key word here is Percent change. Stats are a tricky thing. There are only 7,371 young millennials with a 4 year degree in St Louis..according to the study cited. I wonder how many of those are just graduated or in grad school and will leave after.

I left because the money/action just wasnt there unfortunately. The rams leaving will not help this.

[brianstl]

I think the key word here is Percent change. Stats are a tricky thing. There are only 7,371 young millennials with a 4 year degree in St Louis..according to the study cited. I wonder how many of those are just graduated or in grad school and will leave after.

I left because the money/action just wasnt there unfortunately. The rams leaving will not help this.

That number is for what is considered the city center area only. For the St Louis Metro area as a whole the number is 136,806. That number ranks 20th nationally and is right behind San Jose.

http://cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/YNR-Report-Final.pdf

[WestCoastBilliken]

That number is for what is considered the city center area only. For the St Louis Metro area as a whole the number is 136,806. That number ranks 20th nationally and is right behind San Jose.

http://cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/YNR-Report-Final.pdf

Thanks, that number looks better.

[hsmith19]

Agree, it is a real blow to the St. Louis economy to lose an NFL franchise.

Professional sports team prestige matters, companies want to be in a town with an NFL team, people want to live here, businesses make money related to the team's activities, jobs are created. We were the 19th largest metropolitan area in the USA last time I recall.

The SL economy continues to spiral downward and this is another "hit".

Sports fans vastly overrate the direct economic benefits of pro franchises. Non-sports fans probably underrate them as well, but not nearly to the same extent. The truth is that pro sports and other amusement industries merely move dollars back and forth. They don't grow a local or regional economy. Money not spent on football is largely spent on concerts or at bars or elsewhere. The "prestige" factor is by its very nature difficult to measure, and ridiculously overstated by fans who happen to like sports.

Los Angeles did just fine without an NFL franchise these past 20 years. St. Louis would also survive without an NFL franchise. Thankfully, policy makers have finally started to realize giving away the moon and the stars to land these teams simply isn't worth it. St. Louis' bid for the Rams had a lot to do with this process; it is the absolute nadir in terms of a region being desperate to secure a team at all costs. Other regions and cities have grown cautious watching our mistake play out, and now it's time for us to demonstrate that we've learned from the lesson we provided others.

[hsmith19]

Add this to the long list of tremendous failures by local politicians and city officials. Nothing new here, St. Louis has had horrible leadership for generations. There's a reason why this city never developed like Chicago did going back even to the early 20th century. This city has a long and storied tradition of failing to appoint competent civic leaders. STL's downward spiral as a second class city continues.

Total BS. Chicago surpassed St. Louis because of railroads and 19th Century politics. That water passed under the bridge a long time ago and had absolutely nothing to do with either the CVC of the early '90s or the current group trying to keep an NFL team here.

The truth is if regions' fates were determined solely by the corruption and/or virtue of their elected officials, the Daleys would have doomed Chicago a long time ago. Our problems in St. Louis are much more related to political fragmentation than they are to the qualities of the individual leaders we've had over the years. More courage from our leaders certainly would've helped us recognize the dysfunction sooner, but the reality is that we get the leaders we deserve. The citizenry doesn't want to address the fragmentation, so our leaders don't address it.

The Ferguson unrest has provided another burst of national attention to our dysfunction, but it's not the first time. Plenty of times before we've had opportunities to tackle the inefficiency of stacking layers and layers of local government on top of each other, and every time previously we've failed to do so. Hopefully this time will turn out differently, but any real progress is likely to be incremental.

[hsmith19]

It's more than that. Too many towns, cities, counties, school districts, fire departments (one of the big wastes of all time), police departments, etc. everyone is out for themselves and it's impossible to build a consensus. NIMBY at its worst.

The metropolitan area is really challenged.

Bingo.

[hsmith19]

Go check the Federal Reserve who tracks it. It's not a question of how many graduate, but how many stay, or return, to the area they came from. I'm not saying StL kids don't go to college and graduate. They don't come back to StL because, among other reasons, they can't find JOBS that they deem desirable.

Now I'll turn right around and disagree with you. St. Louis has always had one of the highest rates of natives stay and return. Over the past decade, more young professionals from outside the area have been joining them, particularly in the central city as the inner-ring suburbs continue to bleed residents and businesses in both directions. The other guy's numbers bear this out. St. Louis' ability to attract and retain young people is one of the best and most promising things we've got going for us. It puts us well ahead of the pack in terms of most other similarly sized metro regions.

[cheesycow]

I'm not an economist so I can't truly say this for sure but it was my experience in living downtown that the Dome anchored a lot of development downtown, which has in turn indirectly led to a small but vibrant startup boom in and around Washington Ave. I'm not saying that losing the Rams would be catastrophic to those efforts, but I can't imagine it would help.

[hsmith19]

It's difficult to separate the CVC/Rams stuff from the other downtown renewal efforts that were going on (and started) around the same time, I agree. Downtown might not be in the spot it is now had the Rams never come in the first place. But Wash Ave, the Partnership for Downtown St. Louis, and other related efforts have reached a level of critical mass now where I don't think they'll be impacted too much by the loss of eight home football games a year. I don't think the Rams are central or even really relevant to what groups like that are doing today. It's certainly not the diehard football fan demographic that they're targeting in terms of residents or even night life.

I have secretly hoped the loss of the Rams would provide an opening for another NBA team for a long time, for my own selfish reasons. But I really think the impact to downtown of being home to two as opposed to three major league franchises gets overrated in general and especially by diehard sports fans.

[cheesycow]

You're probably correct. I guess my feeling is probably based on my own perceptions of cities I've never been to or heard much about based on how many teams they have.

[Dwayne's_World]

Total BS. Chicago surpassed St. Louis because of railroads and 19th Century politics. That water passed under the bridge a long time ago and had absolutely nothing to do with either the CVC of the early '90s or the current group trying to keep an NFL team here.

The truth is if regions' fates were determined solely by the corruption and/or virtue of their elected officials, the Daleys would have doomed Chicago a long time ago. Our problems in St. Louis are much more related to political fragmentation than they are to the qualities of the individual leaders we've had over the years. More courage from our leaders certainly would've helped us recognize the dysfunction sooner, but the reality is that we get the leaders we deserve. The citizenry doesn't want to address the fragmentation, so our leaders don't address it.

The Ferguson unrest has provided another burst of national attention to our dysfunction, but it's not the first time. Plenty of times before we've had opportunities to tackle the inefficiency of stacking layers and layers of local government on top of each other, and every time previously we've failed to do so. Hopefully this time will turn out differently, but any real progress is likely to be incremental.

And why was Chicago able to do so? Because the St. Louis city government refused to grant permits necessary for building railroad bridges across the Mississippi River at the city's location. St Louis city officials wanted to protect the riverboat industry. So the railroad companies settled for Chicago, and the rest is history. St Louis officials were clueless 150 years ago, and they are clueless now.

There's a reason for the countless blunders in this city's history such as failing to build up the river front, Pruitt Igoe, losing our status as a national airline hub, losing two football franchises, etc. I could probably dig up many, many more. St. Louis has a long, storied tradition of incompetent civic officials.

[hsmith19]

If you want to blame our leaders from the pre- and post-Civil War era for being slow to embrace technological progress and being too committed to outdated modes of transportation, I'll be a lot more inclined to agree with you there than with you suggesting the Rams leaving or our current leadership in some way reflects on the reasons Chicago surpassed St. Louis in size and wealth.

The truth is the leaders back then did recognize that the railroads and Chicago were making inroads, and they did devote a lot of efforts to respond to them. Maybe they should have done more, but they would have had to in effect hold back the Industrial Revolution to prevent Chicago from becoming a major metropolis and outpacing St. Louis' growth.

I agree with you on the significance of some of the other failures you mention. But Pruitt-Igoe was more about federal policies on inner cities and attitudes about poverty than it was about our local leadership. And the decline of our airport has absolutely nothing to do with losing the Rams. I would much rather see efforts concentrated on promoting more air travel coming through here again than on being desperate to land another NFL franchise.

[cheesycow]

And why was Chicago able to do so? Because the St. Louis city government refused to grant permits necessary for building railroad bridges across the Mississippi River at the city's location. St Louis city officials wanted to protect the riverboat industry. So the railroad companies settled for Chicago, and the rest is history. St Louis officials were clueless 150 years ago, and they are clueless now.

There's a reason for the countless blunders in this city's history such as failing to build up the river front, Pruitt Igoe, losing our status as a national airline hub, losing two football franchises, etc. I could probably dig up many, many more. St. Louis has a long, storied tradition of incompetent civic officials.

I feel like you're making that up? St. Louis ponied for the Eads while Chicago lawmakers attempted to block the plan.

[Dwayne's_World]

If you want to blame our leaders from the pre- and post-Civil War era for being slow to embrace technological progress and being too committed to outdated modes of transportation, I'll be a lot more inclined to agree with you there than with you suggesting the Rams leaving or our current leadership in some way reflects on the reasons Chicago surpassed St. Louis in size and wealth.

The truth is the leaders back then did recognize that the railroads and Chicago were making inroads, and they did devote a lot of efforts to respond to them. Maybe they should have done more, but they would have had to in effect hold back the Industrial Revolution to prevent Chicago from becoming a major metropolis and outpacing St. Louis' growth.

I agree with you on the significance of some of the other failures you mention. But Pruitt-Igoe was more about federal policies on inner cities and attitudes about poverty than it was about our local leadership. And the decline of our airport has absolutely nothing to do with losing the Rams. I would much rather see efforts concentrated on promoting more air travel coming through here again than on being desperate to land another NFL franchise.

All I'm saying is that there is a trend here in terms of poor long term decisions being made for St Louis. Now, whether or not the Rams leaving will be good or bad for the city's economy is debatable. Potentially, the Rams leaving would allow officials to actually invest in the city rather than 8 football games a year. But the fact that they are the second football team to leave is just another example of poor planning and poor leadership. The initial stadium agreement was a complete debacle in hindsight, it should have never involved taxpayer money.