jjray Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 I'm not ready to call JJ a "bust" quite yet as he has 3 years of eligibility. We share a few initials so I'll keep the faith on him. Next year is key for him though. If he improves upon the previous year, then he puts himself into position to be a solid contributor when we shall need it from him in his junior and senior year. Next seaons, I just want to see consistent hussle, defense, and an occasional jumper ... about 10 minutes per game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 I suspect Anthony Bonner has either retired or is about to. Would be a nice asset to the coaching if he were interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted June 1, 2004 Author Share Posted June 1, 2004 davidnark said, "I would be surprised if Brad cannot find good production at the two front court spots between Tom, Ian, Bryce, JJ, Newborne, and Izik." i hope you are right david. all i am saying is that we seem to have a lot of emphasis on guards in our recruiting and we have a roll of the dice in our inside players on the roster. if you reread my posts, you will see i am agreeing that at least one of jj, ian and bryce will indeed pan out. the problem i have with his "approach" to our inside guys, is we seem to be investing a lot of space on projects and question marks. david, from the articles and stories you have read on newborne, do you expect him to be an improvement on sloan from the standpoint of a pure power forward? i am not sure he will be and sloan wasnt even a power forward. he succeeded there soley because he might have more guts and determination than just about every player in billiken history. now if we are banking on an oft injured/sick center, and another in a long line of undersized power forwards as our "sure things" and then sitting back to see which "project" decideds to step up to compete with the likes of cincy, charlotte, louisville, memphis and marquette next year............and of those players, do you see any chris sloan type guts and leaderships signs going off? i dont think so. so right now it appears we arent preparing to improve on what we had last year inside wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted June 1, 2004 Author Share Posted June 1, 2004 without naming names, i one time tried to pin brad soderberg down on hiring an assistant coach like an anthony bonner. i am summarizing, but he more or less questioned if we brought in an assistant that was more or less "retired" and living on easy street, what kind of motivation would he have to recruit and work with the kids? now we all know that bonner is probably an exception to that rule, but i bet houston thought the same when they hired clyde the glide as their head coach a few years ago. tsuegnekillib's point is that a coach is a coach and if motivated can teach the game with the physical benefits of being 6'8". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Yes I agree with that point (one does not have to be a big man to teach a big to play his position--Rich Grawer built Stiponovich and Rich is rather small in stature). As to Bonner, I don't think the guy has a lazy bone in his body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 At 6'6" and about 230lbs., I am not convinced that Newborne is an "undersized" power forward in today's college basketball world. There just aren't that many great big men out there. From what I have read, he sounds like a better finisher and rebounder from the power forward spot than Sloan was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewey33 Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 I agree with David.... This program has a plan right now, and Brad is putting together the players to get it done. There is no problem with a 3 guard/wing offense as long as they defend. Most of our big wins last year came by playing 3 guards at a time and NO Frericks. Add more experience to our guys (most of whom contributed in those big wins) and Polk, Newborne, Alexander, Husak and Meyer. That system may not be where other programs are going, but we will win with it. We also seem to be increasing our athleticism each year and our schedule strength will continue to get better. We'll be fine....I would be very surprised if, this time next year, we aren't talking about getting ready for the A-10, our second straight NCAA berth and sharing pics of the ongoing arena construction. PS--Roy, I don't know if its the heated Mizzou arguments, but it seems like you are taking this banter way too personally. You used to be so much more positive on here. Lorenzo and Spoon were great guys...they can stand quite nicely on what they have accomplished in their careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Man, what's with all the pessimism? We have had a frontcourt under Romar that guaranteed an NCAA invite - and the season was a washout, due to GUARD play. If we don't have good guard play, defense and good rebounding, then forget about the Big Dance for the next two years. Right now, we are seeing a mutation into Brad's version of Wisconson, albeit with what he had on hand, got through emergency recruiting, and has available in the regional recruiting pipeline. Of Ian, JJ, and Bryce, we need to have a lock on one of the three developing into our starting center so we have a developed center when Tom graduates. We need a center along the lines of Heinrich, someone who can clog the middle, eat lots of space, and keep a physical body on an opposing rugged center. On offense in Brad's system, the center needs to be a good short side screener, and adept at screening and passing to the wing from the high post. This leads to the PF leading the team in rebounding. Tom can fit the billet, because he is active enough to force his man off the blocks, pin him with the body, and still be strong enough to grab and hold the bound with a single hand. Last year, Sloan, JJ, and IO could not; hopefully Newborne can do such next year as the PF off the bench. I think our true weakness next year will be at SF/SG. This was the scorer that Josh was quite capable of bodying up and shutting down cold, and hopefully the slot which Tommie will fill in two years. This season, by default, it will be Anthony who will be struggling to keep up speedwise with quicker players. His sub off the bench will first be Darren Clarke, and the Luke - neither has shown a stellar defensive stopper capability to their game. I have Luke pegged as a junior Scott Highmark as far as his offensive style, but he will get torn up physically for a year. Reggie is our lockdown SG, and PG is Dwayne's for the year. Lock, stock, and barrel. If Dwayne gets injured, then we will struggle to hit .500. The wild cards we are forced to pray coming up aces over are IO and JJ. If either packs on another 15 to 20 pounds and shows added skill around the basket as a pleasant side effect, then we will be in for a very pleasant season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 First JJ was a signee out of seperation, not fault of his own or Brads. I therefore would take him out of the evaluation of the big man recruiting. That leaves us with TF who when healthy is a stud and when he only has one arm still gets seven rebounds. good recruit period. The project investment is in Bryce Husak, he redshirts time will tell.......Ian is the key but he did show some skills and promise last year. Not many big men do that as frechman. This I do not think spending one out of three big man spots on a "project" is overly dependent on projects. As for all the gaurds and their interest in SLU, who is to say we are actually pursing them, we know BS holds his cards close to the vest, sure we may have mailed them a brochure but until pdiddy says they are visiting, I bet our interest is not that great. As for Newbourne I agree with Nark, Brad thiks he will start. Brad Showed us with TF that he knows a player when he sees him, I do not think you have to hope I am right or david is right, Lets hope Brad is right!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Good analysis but forgot Alexander in the equation. I believe he figures prominently and is a potential starter in a 3 guard offense. Brad would not have recruited him unless he is also a defender. Unless Clarke improves significantly from his freshman to sophmore campaigns, we shall have to rely heavily on Alexander next season. He is the key to replacing Josh's athelticism and adding another scorer to the floor with Reggie. Would not be surprised to see us start the season as follows: Polk Bryant Alexander Ohanan Frericks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Does anybody remember what weight Highmark came in at his freshman year? My guess is that Luke Meyer is as strong or stronger than Highmark at the same freshman age. Sheltie, I think you are underestimating IO's offensive skills around the basket. IO is capable around the rim, what he needs is some consistency on his mid-range jumper. imo, IO is a better shooter than his stats indicate, but the numbers are what they are! I agree, the post players can pass to the wing, but the key pass is from a high post player to an open player down low. IY is very good at completing this pass, as is IO. In time, BH will be the physical post player you described above. 2004-2005 will be interesting.....can't wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Anthony Jones was a big recruit who did not pan out. He was by far the best player in St. Louis while at Vashon. He never was more than a role player at SLU. Prop 48 was about 6'2 with a decent frame. Never could shoot consistently at SLU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 >Grawer was the last coach to recruit this well locally but >he never got a player from East St. Louis and only one to my >knowledge from Vashon. Aside from the two additional Vashon players already mentioned in this thread, you should count Monroe Douglass and Roland Gray, who both attended PHL schools, and you must count Erwin Claggett, from Venice, Ill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 I think we will see Bonner on the Billiken bench at some point. With another year of success surely some of Brad's assts will get looks from other schools, particulairly Anthony Beane. The only problem with Bonner may be that he wants to be a HC, not an asst. He was seriously interested in the SLU job after Romar left but was not given much consideration. He won't be playing pro ball much longer with his interest he could be coaching somewhere before long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Was not meant as inventory of all PHL players from Grawer's years thicks nor even all local players (only an anecdote) but, by all means, let's remember Roland and Monroe from McKinley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetorch Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Chris Sloan brought alot to the table but he was not a good PF. He was not a great rebounder by any stretch and had zero back to the basket skills. I have no doubt Vashun Newbourne will be a better PF than Sloan was. I have some concern about SLU's big men but I also recognize that college basketball more than ever is guard oriented. If you have 3 or 4 very good guards they can make a couple stiff big men look really really good. I would love to see a David West or Emeka Okafor in a SLU uniform but I think our best bet at success is getting as many good guards as we can. They are the key to getting to the tourney and staying alive in it. really does anyone recall any Butler big men from 02? How about the guys on Xavier this year in the post? We need competent big men who understand their roles and play within themselves. Star Pf and Centers are very very scarce. Maybe we can get a few more back in college if the NBA approves of a age limit for draftees but until then and even after success hinges on guard play and good defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Yep, I'm glad I forgot Alexander. I hope he does not look like a normal juco transfer who is just finding his feet defensively, but we'll see. Watching Sloan, Braun, Polk, and a number of other bball players, I am starting to think it takes a year and a half for a player to recover from major surgery and become a solid contributor again. Don't know when Alexander went under the knife, but hoping all the rust is scraped off when November rolls around. A couple friends in Peoria said we would be very happy with Denard Abraham as a PF, which surprised me. The other statement that caught my attention was in regard to Shaun Livingston - along the lines that Duke evidently trained Q well, as some of the same on-the-edge practices were employed chasing after Shaun. Fans in the ACC apparently are getting vicarious enjoyment in watching Q get roasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltiedave Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Anthony was the best 6'2" PF I've ever seen, but his butt wasn't big enough to create enough room to get his shot off underneath the basket. It was so f'ing painful watching him play against Xavier, with Grant and Strong against Bonner and Jones. Newberry would slide down in an effort to help, but whoever Bonner wasn't guarding would kill us due to the overwhelming physical advantage. God, I hated Xavier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Agree it is alot to hope for that a juco guard can step right in and play solid defense but those are my expectations with Alexander. If not, we can't afford to have both he and Reggie on the floor at the same time. I thought I read the injury was in high school so expect he is fully recovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 A year and a half has already passed since Alexander's injury. Injury was why he redshirted the 2002-2003 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Anthony Jones was 6-2, and Donnie Dobbs was 6-3. Dobbs was more effective offensively and defensively as a forward than Jones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 I am not convinced that Bonner has, or will ever have, the desire or ability to spend the long administrative hours required of assistant coaches. Most fans don't realize that good assistants have to spend countless hours scouting, recruiting, sending letters, making phone calls, etc. I just don't see Bonner ever buying into that role or Brad settling for an assistant coach who won't play that role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 I just started reading this thread and I am surprised at how negative. I can't beleive more of you do not think that IV is going to be very good. He had some good moments as a true freshman. Name me a few centers that had decent years as freshman ... not many. Some people have been confining themselves to too much Billiken BBall where you haven't seen a center in so long that you forgot what they looked like. IV has a big frame with a nice touch on his shot, he needs more upper body strength and work on his footwork, it will come and ... he will be good ... maybe very good. BH is going to be a freshman this coming year ... he is over 7' I haven't seen him play ... but all the negatives I hear are exactly what I would expect from an 18 or 19 year old 7 footer. Brad says he has potential ... give him a chance. I keep hearing about Donnie Dobbs as a good PF, and I know Jeff Harris wasn't bad. Many of you wanted the 6'6" Matt Shaw. But now that we've signed the 6'6" VN the expectations seem to be low. I'm confused ... or maybe just slow. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 I am glad I kept reading and see there are some positive fans out there. If we are depending on AD to shut down the opposing 3 we are in trouble. There is no comparing AD to JF. JF was bigger and stronger. Guarding the 3 will be an issue but many 3's are slashers and not shooters so we need to match up ... give space and make them shoot. The ones who are shooters usually arent as quick and a quick smaller gaurd can harass them and deny them the space and the ball. There are very few who are good shooters anf slashers ... so we need to match up well ... Brad will figure it out. I don't think it matters who starts. TF if he can stay healthy will get the most inside minutes maybe 25-30. then you have IO,IV, and VN to fill the remaining 50-55 minutes with JJ getting some and BH a few. I don't see where we are not pretty good inside. At the 3 guards ... we have a lot of strength ... I see DP, RB and Alexander starting ... we know RB can score and I can guarantee you DP will be able to get his share. If Alexander can score as I expect he can ... we will be hard to defend. And I didn't even mention AD, DC and LM. ( If you have not seen DP play ... get ready, this kid is GOOD. ) I for one and very excited about the prospects of the upcoming year. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 skip you have good points. i am just not getting my hopes too high. imo, our inside game will keep us from getting better than we were the last few seasons as i dont see where we have improved ourselves on the inside. i admit there is potential, but for every positive you listed about ian and bryce there are negatives as well. i.e. we havent found emeka okafor yet. sure i didnt expect to, and i understand we have to "pan for gold" and bank on one or more of these prospects coming to fruition. my whole point of the thread and the tone of my posts is that it seems we are stuck going after very nice guards, but just grabbing an inside guy or two here or there and not equally emphasizing recruiting efforts for inside players. all just seems to be unbalanced. now if more than one of these guys turn it on next year, i will be the first to praise brad again (i admitted i was very wrong on frericks last year, even with his injuries and illnesses, frericks presense is exciting). and nothing that i have seen about newborne makes me think we have without a doubt upgraded the other inside spot. of course a lot of that apprehension can go away once the season starts. but the stuff i have read makes me believe that newborne will fall somewhere between ross varner and quitman dillard. i was hoping for the next bonner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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