Annual Plea for SLU Football

[Bay Area Billiken]

Notre Dame and Boston College are Catholic schools with successful football programs. ND is highly profitable for a number of reasons. BC seems to have strong revenue but I'm not sure they clear the bottom line in football. Not many programs do. But BC football is long-established.

What other Catholic schools have "successful" football programs? How do you rate success? To me, looking at a school with no football program, football fans, or football tradition, to be successful means financial success, and I don't see where the money is going to come from or how it will be sustainable in the long run. I just don't see the point if it's going to be a financial drain and take down other existing sports.

I'm not sure I follow why Marquette going to the Big East or SLU getting passed in the college rankings (which involve a ton of bull**** anyway) are relevant.

BC has parlayed the Doug Flutie Hail Mary pass in Miami's Orange Bowl into becoming a recognized rival school of Notre Dame. It is known as The Flutie Factor. I saw and heard it personally when I heard the ND admissions head ask a group of ND prospective students, under the Golden Dome itself, how many of them had applied to "the College."

The benefits of a college football team are not solely measured by an accountant's bottom line. There are also the marketing and intangible aspects. There is a reason why Georgetown, Holy Cross, Fordham, Villanova, Dayton, Duquesne, San Diego, all fellow Catholic schools like SLU, have football teams. There is a reason that Quincy has a football team.

I mentioned Marquette because I still see Marquette as a SLU peer. When I was at SLU, there was a study comparing SLU to Jesuit University X, which we assumed with good reason was Marquette. Granted Marquette does not have football, but Marquette has passed SLU, albeit slightly, in those college rankings, and that happened after Marquette moved into the Big East. Sports are important. In fact, if SLU had football, that would be a way to perhaps help SLU move back ahead of Marquette in terms of the overall college experience.

When I was at the Fordham-Holy Cross game in The Bronx 4 years ago, I sat for the 3rd Quarter with a SLU Professor, who had a freshman daughter at Fordham. Surveying the beautiful Fall day, watching a competitive football game between rivals, I said that this is the one thing we were missing at SLU.

And who knows if there is a Doug Flutie out there somewhere, awaiting his chance.

[jbizzle09]

Why can other peer institutions, fellow Catholic schools, have football, successful football, and not SLU?

Why did Marquette get the Big East invite and not SLU? Geography is not the real answer there. Geography is a de facto wash there. Until Dwyane Wade became eligible at Marquette, SLU was at minimum even with Marquette in then current hoops, in some ways ahead of Marquette, albeit not in terms of overall basketball tradition.

Why have Fordham and now Marquette (most regrettably) now passed SLU in the US News & World Report college ratings?

How did SLU go from being the 5th highest rated Catholic school to the 5th highest rated Jesuit school? (Answer: Marquette passed us.) For that matter, how did SLU go from being the 4th highest rated Catholic school into the 6th highest rated?

Friends, I am a loyal Billiken, true blue. My roommate and I personally sat in Ekker's office before the 1981-82 season and told him we weren't leaving until he let us restore the Billiken mascot. I advertise for SLU almost daily with an assortment of SLU T-Shirts. I want my alma mater to succeed, to be the best possible. Status quo gets us stuck in place.

A future Doug Flutie can't put St. Louis U. on the map if there is no team.

I don't think anyone will or can question your passion for SLU, and obviously you are very passionate about wanting SLU to have a football team that you can support. But I wonder if that passion is clouding your judgment somewhat and you aren't looking at the picture fully.

Unlike some schools that were able to bring along football slowly in the past as a D-3 team, SLU has to come in, at minimum, as a FCS team. Now, if you don't want to deal with Title IX implications with your scholarships (60+ for FCS, 85 for FBS) you can always join a non-scholarship conference at first, Patriot or Pioneer.

The Patriot league probably wouldn't welcome SLU in as all those schools are East Coast and doubt they want to deal with the extra travel of coming to St. Louis. Playing in the Pioneer League is basically akin to playing club level football, as the league doesn't get any automatic qualifiers to the FCS playoffs. Not exactly a conference you want to join if you are looking to try to create a viable FBS football team.

If you want to go the route where the team eventually becomes FBS quality, you first need to get decent facilities in place. That means a stadium that seats a bare minimum of 15,000 (FBS minimum requirement) along with practice fields and weight rooms. While it is true that SLU has a very nice endowment, so do most private universities due to their high tuitions and wealthy donors, and a good chunk of those donations are earmarked for specific things and can't just be tapped into to assist the athletic department. Cal Tech has an endowment of over $1.5 billion but I don't think the alum and students there are wondering why the administration isn't trying to get a football team in place.

And therein lies another issue...even if you get by Title IX and you are shooting for the FBS route, then you not only have the 85 scholarships in place for football but 85 for other sports, as well as room and board and other expenses that have to be paid for these athletes and sports. That is not only money not coming in from tuition, but money that has to be paid out to support the athletic department further. Perhaps this can be recouped by higher admissions and revenue generated from football, but I highly doubt it.

Finally, not sure why you bring up Marquette in this thread. They don't have a football program. Was it merely to make a point about their success in basketball and having D Wade? If so, I think the point is lost in this discussion if you are trying to get people to support a football program at SLU. And in regards to Doug Flutie, while he did resurrect that program, it should also be pointed out that BC has continuously had a football team since 1892.

Once again, I truly admire your passion for this. However, you can try to reason it out anyway possible, but it just isn't going to ever happen at SLU.

[Bobby Metzinger]

And who knows if there is a Doug Flutie out there somewhere, awaiting his chance.

God, that's a beautiful thought.

Go Bills.

[Pistol]

The benefits of a college football team are not solely measured by an accountant's bottom line. There are also the marketing and intangible aspects. There is a reason why Georgetown, Holy Cross, Fordham, Villanova, Dayton, Duquesne, San Diego, all fellow Catholic schools like SLU, have football teams. There is a reason that Quincy has a football team.

And the reasons each of these schools have football teams vary, as do the levels at which each of these programs compete. The followings each of them have also vary. I would contend that the degree to which the football teams at these schools can be considered recruiting tools for the larger student body does not necessarily justify the expense of fielding the team. How many people know all of these schools even have football teams? Fordham and Holy Cross and places like that might have a nice tradition but they're doing it at a small, regional level and have a very long tradition; we'd be trying the same model with no tradition.

And who knows if there is a Doug Flutie out there somewhere, awaiting his chance.

Sniff, sniff.

Flutie threw that famous pass when I was 1 year old. Romanticizing it doesn't do much for me, nor the kids applying for college now, who were almost a decade from being born.

And does the "Flutie Factor" really apply to schools that don't have FCS-level programs? One of the coolest plays I've ever seen was a wild series of laterals that helped Trinity (TX) win in the closing seconds a few years ago. Did applications to Trinity soar through the roof? No. If Dayton's non-scholarship team wins on a hail mary pass to win their conference, will applications suddenly reach an all-time high and boost the school into the top tier in the nation? Nope. Not many people are watching unless it's the highest level of college football. If SLU were ever to field a team, it won't be the highest level. If a hypothetical Flutie were to throw a hypothetical hail mary and win a hypothetical big game for SLU's hypothetical team, there would be no Flutie Factor. In what scenario could SLU ever be playing in a game as big as the Orange Bowl?

[ucan2]

I would like to see SLU take care of its current athletes first, before trying to add football. Most SLU athletes get little to no athletic scholarship money. It's pitiful. If they didn't give fairly good academic money, my kid sure wouldn't be there!

[Bobby Metzinger]

And the reasons each of these schools have football teams vary, as do the levels at which each of these programs compete. The followings each of them have also vary. I would contend that the degree to which the football teams at these schools can be considered recruiting tools for the larger student body does not necessarily justify the expense of fielding the team. How many people know all of these schools even have football teams? Fordham and Holy Cross and places like that might have a nice tradition but they're doing it at a small, regional level and have a very long tradition; we'd be trying the same model with no tradition.

Sniff, sniff.

Flutie threw that famous pass when I was 1 year old. Romanticizing it doesn't do much for me, nor the kids applying for college now, who were almost a decade from being born.

And does the "Flutie Factor" really apply to schools that don't have FCS-level programs? One of the coolest plays I've ever seen was a wild series of laterals that helped Trinity (TX) win in the closing seconds a few years ago. Did applications to Trinity soar through the roof? No. If Dayton's non-scholarship team wins on a hail mary pass to win their conference, will applications suddenly reach an all-time high and boost the school into the top tier in the nation? Nope. Not many people are watching unless it's the highest level of college football. If SLU were ever to field a team, it won't be the highest level. If a hypothetical Flutie were to throw a hypothetical hail mary and win a hypothetical big game for SLU's hypothetical team, there would be no Flutie Factor. In what scenario could SLU ever be playing in a game as big as the Orange Bowl?

Pistol, I hate to say it, but South Florida started their program 15 years ago and just pulled off the biggest win in program history 5 days ago. Obviously, the state of Florida has exceptional football talent, but you can take a team from the ground up and ruin the BCS dreams of a storied program like Notre Dame. It's not going to happen overnight, but if kids start buying into the system a program is selling, you can hang with the big boys.

Friend of SLU Cheryl Levick is doing that at Georgia State right now. Former Miami coach Larry Coker is utilizing the Alamo Dome to rev up his UT-San Antonio Road Runners. It's happening at A-10 school Charlotte.

We can do it at SLU - it's just going to take overwhelming support from the administration, alumni, trustees and the student body. We have the resources, but do we have the willpower to make it happen? That has yet to be seen.

We'd also have to bring in a "name" to get our recruiting efforts started. I'm thinking Butch Davis...

[Box and Won]

I'm looking forward to seeing the "Kwamain Effect" take place...

[bonwich]

SLU Enrollment

2006 12,034

2007 12,309

2008 12,733

2009 13,313

2010 13,785

How can this be? We have no football. Our basketball team has been "mediocre" for this entire period. Why would anyone want to come here? Everyone knows that you have to be committed to fielding a "top-tier" athletic program in order to be a truly successful university.

PS: Not directly comparable, but also not exactly showing a burst of growth.

Undergraduate enrollment, Boston College

2000 8,930

2005 9,019

2008 9,013

2009 9,171

2010 9,099

However:

Total enrollment, Boston College

1996 14,830

2010 14,640

[Box and Won]

It will be interesting to see what happens to the enrollment at SLU and elsewhere in the next few years. The number of high school students has apparently already peaked and has begun declining.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I'm looking forward to seeing the "Kwamain Effect" take place...

So am I Box, so am I.

I'm hoping this will be an NCAA Tournament year.

This thread, which I started, reinforces that SLU Football is a pipe dream that will never happen, even if it should IMHO. There's more that could be said, but discretion is said to be the better part of valor, and I'll just leave it at that.

If I am Don Quixote out here on the Left Coast, so be it. "To dream the impossible dream, ..."

In response to a previous post, I brought up Marquette as a similar school to SLU that has parlayed its Big East invite, i.e. sports, into a higher ranking for the school overall. I am convinced that higher ranking after going in the Big East was not a mere coincidence.

And although Notre Dame football is struggling these days, there is no question to me that Notre Dame as an institution is a household name because of Fighting Irish football. Football is the #1 marketing tool for that school, that puts the Notre Dame brand on the national scene throughout the fall. I also think it is not just a coincidence that Notre Dame is the #1 ranked Catholic school. The dollars that football brings to Notre Dame is astounding.

[For-DaLove]

I know a lot of people who applied to, and visited, Marquette and SLU. They ended up choosing SLU because we have a nicer campus. I think we all know who to thank for that.

I agree that Biondi hasn't done everything he can to help our athletic department succeed, but he has done a lot to help our school become a better place

[Bay Area Billiken]

I know a lot of people who applied to, and visited, Marquette and SLU. They ended up choosing SLU because we have a nicer campus. I think we all know who to thank for that.

I agree that Biondi hasn't done everything he can to help our athletic department succeed, but he has done a lot to help our school become a better place

Definitely agreed.

The SLU campus is stunningly nice, light years better than when I was there from 1978-85. And I give high credit to Father Biondi.

[bk18]

We know you are. If I thought for one second that the students/community would support it I would change my mind. I am convinced that the administration would try to do it on the cheap...that's not something I'd support.

I agree in that the administration and AD need to find a way to show a willingness to back programs with strong financial support.

If basketball games can become a sell-out sort of event on a regular basis, the revenue will be there and I sure hope that the money is recycled back into the Athletic Department and not being fed into our endowment.

With regards to student and community support, it won't be there right from the get go, but after 10-20 years of development, I think a football program could easily be supported. It's not going to be an overnight change.

[jbizzle09]

I agree in that the administration and AD need to find a way to show a willingness to back programs with strong financial support.

If basketball games can become a sell-out sort of event on a regular basis, the revenue will be there and I sure hope that the money is recycled back into the Athletic Department and not being fed into our endowment.

With regards to student and community support, it won't be there right from the get go, but after 10-20 years of development, I think a football program could easily be supported. It's not going to be an overnight change.

Sorry, but you need to know if the student body and community have the desire for and will support a program PRIOR to you starting it. You cannot go into a money pit like a football program without knowing first whether you already have a large amount of support.

[MB73]

Football?

Just a reminder, in the 70's, SLU had an outstanding D-1 hockey team, very successful, outdrew The Blues (per game), and of course did not have to pay their players salaries like The Blues did.

SLU played Ohio State, other quality teams, 2 game weekend series, packed the old arena on Oakland Ave.

Some old Jesuit crawled out of a tower and squashed the whole program, just like that.

"Why do we have a hockey team?", he asked.

And you think SLU can put together a football program?

[billikenfan05]

I agree in that the administration and AD need to find a way to show a willingness to back programs with strong financial support.

If basketball games can become a sell-out sort of event on a regular basis, the revenue will be there and I sure hope that the money is recycled back into the Athletic Department and not being fed into our endowment.

With regards to student and community support, it won't be there right from the get go, but after 10-20 years of development, I think a football program could easily be supported. It's not going to be an overnight change.

IF? IF? That's a big ###### if! The revenue basketball brings in will never, I REPEAT NEVER, be enough to start a football team. Dividing that money even further to fund a football team + the other sports that will need to be added on will CRIPPLE all other programs including basketball and soccer(yes Backhand we know you don't care ) The original funding would have to come exclusively from private sources.

10-20 years? That's a ###### joke right? That length of time is a very risky gamble. A gamble that, if failed, would cripple our entire athletic department.

[bonwich]

Just a reminder, in the 70's, SLU had an outstanding D-1 hockey team, very successful, outdrew The Blues (per game), and of course did not have to pay their players salaries like The Blues did.

SLU played Ohio State, other quality teams, 2 game weekend series, packed the old arena on Oakland Ave.

Some old Jesuit crawled out of a tower and squashed the whole program, just like that.

"Why do we have a hockey team?", he asked.

Well, that's not entirely true. SLU started a hockey program in large part because the Salomons tried to use it as a jump-start for interest in the expansion Blues. Sometime during the final 2-5 seasons, the Salomons started charging rent, which totally changed the already-shaky financial situation of the SLU program. The basketball team wasn't exactly setting attendance or performance records (at least not positive ones) in those days, and if you think Father Biondi "doesn't support" athletics, you should have known Father O'Connell. (Not "you," as in MB73, whom I believe did know Father Dan. "You" as in the global billikens.com "you.")

[bk18]

Sorry, but you need to know if the student body and community have the desire for and will support a program PRIOR to you starting it. You cannot go into a money pit like a football program without knowing first whether you already have a large amount of support.

Ok so should we poll our students? Do you think our students and community are that much different than BC?

If you build it they will come.

[bk18]

IF? IF? That's a big ###### if! The revenue basketball brings in will never, I REPEAT NEVER, be enough to start a football team. Dividing that money even further to fund a football team + the other sports that will need to be added on will CRIPPLE all other programs including basketball and soccer(yes Backhand we know you don't care ) The original funding would have to come exclusively from private sources.

10-20 years? That's a ###### joke right? That length of time is a very risky gamble. A gamble that, if failed, would cripple our entire athletic department.

Ok, and you sound the world is going to end and all sports are going to fall over and die if we start a football program. Calm down and take a tylenol... This is a legitimate question and if other smaller schools can do it, I don't think it is an automatic train wreck for everything in the entire AD. It deserves some discussion.

I am not saying that football should steal 100% of basketball's money, what I am saying is the AD is going to need a boost in money and support. This can come from boosters, tickets, etc. But all those aren't going to come from soccer, track, volleyball, etc. If the basketball team can rise to become a regular tournament contender that sells out Chaifetz regularly, the culture, power, and financials of the athletic depart, community, and student fans will be completely different. This is the kind of boost that would be needed to get a football program started.

Do you honestly think any sport is (directly) profitable for the university besides men's basketball? Should we cut all programs simply because they don't make a profit.

Also, 10-20 years is a reasonable time. You can't expect to start a program and have them reach their development potential overnight.

[billikenfan05]

Ok so should we poll our students? Do you think our students and community are that much different than BC?

If you build it they will come.

It would be the same excuse it always has been. Tickets wouldn't be free and kids wouldn't pay to see a ###### football team. They'd tailgate and go home.

[billikenfan05]

Ok, and you sound the world is going to end and all sports are going to fall over and die if we start a football program. Calm down and take a tylenol... This is a legitimate question and if other schools can do it smaller than us I don't think it is an automatic train wreck for everything in the entire AD. It deserves some discussion.

I am not saying that football should steal 100% of basketball's money, what I am saying is the AD is going to need a boost in money. This can come from boosters, tickets, etc. But all those aren't going to come from soccer, track, volleyball, etc. If the basketball team can rise to become a regular tournament contender that sells out Chaifetz regularly, the culture, power, and financials of the athletic depart, community, and student fans will be completely different. This is the kind of boost that would be needed to get a football program started.

Do you honestly think any sport is (directly) profitable for the university besides men's basketball? Should we cut all programs simply because they don't make a profit.

Also, 10-20 years is a reasonable time. You can't expect to start a program and have them reach their development potential overnight.

10 years should be the absolute max. 20 years is ridiculous. I'm not saying we should cut sports that don't make money. I'm saying that a sport that should generate revenue but won't should not be added on. You have proven time and time again that your hard on for football has clouded your rationality.

[Box and Won]

Start a club team. Recruit, build a program and sustained success at the club level. Then gauge if it can be taken to the next level, which would be a non-scholarship FCS program, a la Dayton.

[billikenfan05]

Start a club team. Recruit, build a program and sustained success at the club level. Then gauge if it can be taken to the next level, which would be a non-scholarship FCS program, a la Dayton.

THIS!!!!!

[bk18]

Start a club team. Recruit, build a program and sustained success at the club level. Then gauge if it can be taken to the next level, which would be a non-scholarship FCS program, a la Dayton.

Skip the Club team. Just go straight to non-scholarship FCS. I don't know how those are funded usually but it seems to be the most logical way to start then maybe 5-10 years later, provide scholarships. Then after 20 years you could have a competitive team that can handle a small stadium and a good fan base.

Here is an interesting blog article on college football attendance stats.

http://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/the-2010-college-football-attendance-rankings/

BC has about the same number of students as us and brings in nearly 40,000 per game. I don't think we could ever achieve that but if after a long time of developing the program I think getting more than 10,000 per game is very reasonable and would maintain enough financial support so that it wouldn't be a "drain".

[bk18]

Same blog, similar article:

http://harvardsportsanalysis.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/what-factors-contribute-to-attendance-in-college-football/

What Factors Contribute to Attendance in College Football? ...

The article also mentions another article about college football profits

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/30/the-most-profitable-colle_n_802810.html#s217317&title=University_of_Texas

If Biondi had 20 years left in him at SLU, I think it would be enough to convince him to start a program, but it's a long term investment.