Zavier Turner

[Clock_Tower]

no you are wrong. i have said time and time again that soderberg wasnt good enough in hindsight. you and others are the ones that constantly bring soderberg up as a comparison point. you are the ones that cant let five years ago be history. i only point out we shouldnt compare to a failed coach as our comparison.

same with this saving scholarships, i am saying to clock, that if it was a failed method to save scholarships before, it should be the same today. but now for whatever reason, clock wants to save scholarships.

Roy. If we have 2 scholarships left for this Spring, and if we are using one of them for the International kid who would have to sit out a year, then I am suggesting that,if we don't get the targets we wants this Spring,that we consider saving this last one to use in the Fall so that we get 3 Fall recruits.

The difference between RM and Brad is that history says RM will actually get 3 kids in the Fall whereas history showed that Brad did not. Brad saved these scholarships (more than one)for several years in a row despite having a team with little depth. In contrast, RM will have a very deep (we'll have to see how good) and young team.

[kmbilliken]

Roy. If we have 2 scholarships left for this Spring, and if we are using one of them for the International kid who would have to sit out a year, then I am suggesting that,if we don't get the targets we wants this Spring,that we consider saving this last one to use in the Fall so that we get 3 Fall recruits.

The difference between RM and Brad is that history says RM will actually get 3 kids in the Fall whereas history showed that Brad did not. Brad saved these scholarships (more than one)for several years in a row despite having a team with little depth. In contrast, RM will have a very deep (we'll have to see how good) and young team.

Brad didn't save scholarships by choice. He couldn't fill them.

[Cowboy]

Brad didn't save scholarships by choice. He couldn't fill them.

-BINGO, thank you

[Clock_Tower]

Quite probably the real reason Brad saved scholies was because he couldn't fill them. Still Brad repeatedly talked about the benefits of saving schoarships because of the loaded upcoming classes. Positive spin after failures. Masterplan by waiting. Doesn't really matter. We have enough talent for this upcoming season if our targets are lured by the bright lights of the BCS programs.

[ACE]

no you are wrong. i have said time and time again that soderberg wasnt good enough in hindsight. you and others are the ones that constantly bring soderberg up as a comparison point. you are the ones that cant let five years ago be history. i only point out we shouldnt compare to a failed coach as our comparison.

same with this saving scholarships, i am saying to clock, that if it was a failed method to save scholarships before, it should be the same today. but now for whatever reason, clock wants to save scholarships.

I have never heard you say that Soderberg wasn't good enough in hindsight once, much less "time and time again." Has anybody else ever heard Roy express this? If you can provide a link to a previous comment, then I would certainly apologize. If that's the way you feel now, fine, but most of the time when the topic of Sodie comes up, you are still there to defend him from criticism. We know you are loyal to Sodie, just own it. In this thread, you even seem to raise the possibility that there might be a double standard regarding "saved scholarships." Your point being why was it ok for people to criticize Sodie for saving scholarships, but not Majerus. Fair question, but there are a lot differences between the two situations.

First of all, recruiting is not done. Also, I will be a little disappointed if we don' find a decent recruit to fill one of those openings because I still don't love the practice of saving scholarships, but the state of the roster now is not nearly as dire as it was when myself and others were complaining about Sodie saving scholarships. The current roster is at least two deep at every position from 1-4, with an experienced group of 10 players. Center could be stronger, but there are not many glaring weaknesses. I really don't like "saving scholarships" when there are big holes on a roster, and that is what I complained about and you defended in the last couple of years of the Sodie era. You can't save scholarships when Dwayne Polk is the only true point guard on your roster. You can't save scholarships when Luke Meyer is getting more than 25 mpg as your power forward. You can't save scholarships, when you have little depth on your bench. It was especially frustrating because I thought those teams really had some potential with Ian, Tommie and Kevin. I'm definitely not a Sodie hater. In fact, I thought he did an excellent job taking Romar's roster and getting that team into the NIT his first season. I was also on board with Sodie after signing Tommie and Kevin, but after that, he added little else and that was my biggest issue with "saving scholarships."

[billiken_roy]

I have never heard you say that Soderberg wasn't good enough in hindsight once, much less "time and time again." Has anybody else ever heard Roy express this? If you can provide a link to a previous comment, then I would certainly apologize. If that's the way you feel now, fine, but most of the time when the topic of Sodie comes up, you are still there to defend him from criticism. We know you are loyal to Sodie, just own it. In this thread, you even seem to raise the possibility that there might be a double standard regarding "saved scholarships." Your point being why was it ok for people to criticize Sodie for saving scholarships, but not Majerus. Fair question, but there are a lot differences between the two situations.

First of all, recruiting is not done. Also, I will be a little disappointed if we don' find a decent recruit to fill one of those openings because I still don't love the practice of saving scholarships, but the state of the roster now is not nearly as dire as it was when myself and others were complaining about Sodie saving scholarships. The current roster is at least two deep at every position from 1-4, with an experienced group of 10 players. Center could be stronger, but there are not many glaring weaknesses. I really don't like "saving scholarships" when there are big holes on a roster, and that is what I complained about and you defended in the last couple of years of the Sodie era. You can't save scholarships when Dwayne Polk is the only true point guard on your roster. You can't save scholarships when Luke Meyer is getting more than 25 mpg as your power forward. You can't save scholarships, when you have little depth on your bench. It was especially frustrating because I thought those teams really had some potential with Ian, Tommie and Kevin. I'm definitely not a Sodie hater. In fact, I thought he did an excellent job taking Romar's roster and getting that team into the NIT his first season. I was also on board with Sodie after signing Tommie and Kevin, but after that, he added little else and that was my biggest issue with "saving scholarships."

ace i have indeed said that about soderberg many times over the last few years. what i defend soderberg are character assasinations or lies about the way things actually happened. go back and read for yourself.

my question again is why are you so happy to settle for a comparison to the soderberg days? that seems ridiculous. i have higher standards than being compared to that level of a program. ironically now after four seasons, the difference in the overall production between this regime the last two regimes is not much different recordwise.

[ACE]

ace i have indeed said that about soderberg many times over the last few years. what i defend soderberg are character assasinations or lies about the way things actually happened. go back and read for yourself.

my question again is why are you so happy to settle for a comparison to the soderberg days? that seems ridiculous. i have higher standards than being compared to that level of a program. ironically now after four seasons, the difference in the overall production between this regime the last two regimes is not much different recordwise.

Other than Metz, who you told me earlier today is somebody who nobody really should take seriously, who else makes character assasinations regarding Soderberg? Usually when Sodie comes up, it is in reference to poor recruiting. You drew the comparision by interjecting "saving scholarships" into the debate. I do hold the program to a higher standard and clearly the talent level is better. Last year was a lost season due to the situation so I give RM a pass there, but if he doesn't get us to the Big Dance at least once in the next two years, then I will certainly be a critic. I don't ever recall you being critical of Sodie at any point during his tenure.

[Clock_Tower]

ace i have indeed said that about soderberg many times over the last few years. what i defend soderberg are character assasinations or lies about the way things actually happened. go back and read for yourself.

my question again is why are you so happy to settle for a comparison to the soderberg days? that seems ridiculous. i have higher standards than being compared to that level of a program. ironically now after four seasons, the difference in the overall production between this regime the last two regimes is not much different recordwise.

Roy. No one is comparing or wanting our program to return to the days of Brad. Instead, if I showed you an example where a Top 10 program (Coach K and Duke, whatever team you want) did not use all their scholarships in the Spring but saved one for the following Fall, would that be acceptable?

[billiken_roy]

Roy. No one is comparing or wanting our program to return to the days of Brad. Instead, if I showed you an example where a Top 10 program (Coach K and Duke, whatever team you want) did not use all their scholarships in the Spring but saved one for the following Fall, would that be acceptable?

i was never the one that attacked saving scholarships. so i am not sure what you want me to accept. i am being critical of the hypocrital words you and others use. rickma gets a pass on issues that previous coaches also did. when called on it there are a million reasons it is ok. but the truth is that rickma has done nothing to date at slu to justify the pass imo. when he truly makes an invited tourney, or wins a conference tourney then that might change things. but for now, i am only pointing out the inconsistencies of the crowd and since we are now going into season 5, it seems to me that shouldnt be the case anymore.

of course above you said it was different because we have so much more depth. yet it seems to me that our depth was such that it couldnt withstand losing two players last year. then we get the argument, well our teams are so young. count me in the group that wonders why we are the youngest team in the world every year? who's fault is that? now we cant fill scholarships this year (ironically, the first year we dont have a mass exodus of players we cant fill the scholarships available. hmmmmmmmm) so now it is ok to save scholarships.

personally, i have no problem with that. imo rickma and all the coaches at slu for the last 20 years pretty much use an 8 man rotation anyway so really we just lose practice players by doing this so i dont care. but again, it just seems to me it is another example of the rickma lemmings turning their heads.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Other than Metz, who you told me earlier today is somebody who nobody really should take seriously, who else makes character assasinations regarding Soderberg? Usually when Sodie comes up, it is in reference to poor recruiting. You drew the comparision by interjecting "saving scholarships" into the debate. I do hold the program to a higher standard and clearly the talent level is better. Last year was a lost season due to the situation so I give RM a pass there, but if he doesn't get us to the Big Dance at least once in the next two years, then I will certainly be a critic. I don't ever recall you being critical of Sodie at any point during his tenure.

That's nice of y'all to talk behind backs like that.

Go ahead and call me Lee Harvey, but I've always said that Brad is the epitome of "nice guys finish last."

Brad was and still is a nice guy. A family guy (gigity), but he COULD NOT RECRUIT. He is a college basketball coach, not Mother Theresa. He's open to public criticism of his job performance and according to a lot of us (now, anyway) he did a piss-poor job and was relieved of his duties. But it's hard to call a guy like Brad a nice guy when he's dragging your alma mater's basketball program through the proverbial exile in the desert.

Brad did his little song and dance/smoke and mirrors and said "we're saving scholarships" and got us all wondering what top prospect he was going after. But if we were smart enough to see through the failures, we would have all called BS on Uncle BS, as Tim Wilson would say.

I initially was drinking the Soderberg Punch/Kool-Aid, but then I realized it was laced with cyanide and our program was dying. I trust in Rick to bring it back to life.

[Clock_Tower]

i was never the one that attacked saving scholarships. so i am not sure what you want me to accept. i am being critical of the hypocrital words you and others use. rickma gets a pass on issues that previous coaches also did. when called on it there are a million reasons it is ok. but the truth is that rickma has done nothing to date at slu to justify the pass imo. when he truly makes an invited tourney, or wins a conference tourney then that might change things. but for now, i am only pointing out the inconsistencies of the crowd and since we are now going into season 5, it seems to me that shouldnt be the case anymore.

of course above you said it was different because we have so much more depth. yet it seems to me that our depth was such that it couldnt withstand losing two players last year. then we get the argument, well our teams are so young. count me in the group that wonders why we are the youngest team in the world every year? who's fault is that? now we cant fill scholarships this year (ironically, the first year we dont have a mass exodus of players we cant fill the scholarships available. hmmmmmmmm) so now it is ok to save scholarships.

personally, i have no problem with that. imo rickma and all the coaches at slu for the last 20 years pretty much use an 8 man rotation anyway so really we just lose practice players by doing this so i dont care. but again, it just seems to me it is another example of the rickma lemmings turning their heads.

Good comments and fair points.

I cannot speak for others, but I do give RM a pass b/c of his past and proven track record. This HOF record, coupled with his recruits that first year, the way these both played and developed plus the potential of the second year's class, I was as high on this program as I ever have been -- 23 wins and the final game of the third tier tourney -- snake bitten by CE and the NCAA. Then, the wheels cam off last year and I hit lowest point with SLU -- the Situation, the injuries, the disappointing Soph class... Then, the Freshmen took over and my interest and confidence in RM returned. I am now ready for breakout season!!

Even you will agree that, if given more, less problems with Fr. B and good health, RM will have our program where we all want it to be. RM's methods, peculiarities and conduct are not ideal. Then, again, our program has been all but irrelevant with meddling yet apathetic sports fan as President of SLU. With Fr. Biondi at the helm, I see few other ways of getting our program to where we all want it to be other than with a guy like RM. Further, since we have gone down this path, there is no turning back or room for getting "cold feet."

[ACE]

i was never the one that attacked saving scholarships. so i am not sure what you want me to accept. i am being critical of the hypocrital words you and others use. rickma gets a pass on issues that previous coaches also did. when called on it there are a million reasons it is ok. but the truth is that rickma has done nothing to date at slu to justify the pass imo. when he truly makes an invited tourney, or wins a conference tourney then that might change things. but for now, i am only pointing out the inconsistencies of the crowd and since we are now going into season 5, it seems to me that shouldnt be the case anymore.

of course above you said it was different because we have so much more depth. yet it seems to me that our depth was such that it couldnt withstand losing two players last year. then we get the argument, well our teams are so young. count me in the group that wonders why we are the youngest team in the world every year? who's fault is that? now we cant fill scholarships this year (ironically, the first year we dont have a mass exodus of players we cant fill the scholarships available. hmmmmmmmm) so now it is ok to save scholarships.

personally, i have no problem with that. imo rickma and all the coaches at slu for the last 20 years pretty much use an 8 man rotation anyway so really we just lose practice players by doing this so i dont care. but again, it just seems to me it is another example of the rickma lemmings turning their heads.

It's about filling weaknesses on a roster. You were ok with Sodie saving scholarships when he had Polk as his only point guard, Luke Meyer as his starting power forward and basically no bench. Myself and others were not. When we complained about it, you were there to defend like a good little Sodie soldier. This year, without the mass exodus of players, there is less urgency to fill the available scholarships. There clearly is a difference. If Dwayne Polk was the only point guard on our roster right now, I would be ticked about RM saving scholarships.

BTW, does anybody else find it ironic that Roy is accusing others of being "lemmings." Does anybody ever remember Roy criticizing Sodie when he was our coach? He STILL gets bent out of shape when anyone criticizes the Lindenwood coach.

[For-DaLove]

Good comments and fair points.

I cannot speak for others, but I do give RM a pass b/c of his past and proven track record. This HOF record, coupled with his recruits that first year, the way these both played and developed plus the potential of the second year's class, I was as high on this program as I ever have been -- 23 wins and the final game of the third tier tourney -- snake bitten by CE and the NCAA. Then, the wheels cam off last year and I hit lowest point with SLU -- the Situation, the injuries, the disappointing Soph class... Then, the Freshmen took over and my interest and confidence in RM returned. I am now ready for breakout season!!

Even you will agree that, if given more, less problems with Fr. B and good health, RM will have our program where we all want it to be. RM's methods, peculiarities and conduct are not ideal. Then, again, our program has been all but irrelevant with meddling yet apathetic sports fan as President of SLU. With Fr. Biondi at the helm, I see few other ways of getting our program to where we all want it to be other than with a guy like RM. Further, since we have gone down this path, there is no turning back or room for getting "cold feet."

+1. We're currently listed as one of the first 4 teams out on Joe Lunardi's bracketology. I know this means practically nothing, but it is exposure. The only reason we're getting this exposure is Rick Majerus.

[Billiken Rich]

but remember, soderberg got fired. he wasnt a good coach and i wouldnt compare rickma to a coach like that. he is above that.

I thought that line deserved a bit of immortality......

[Randy]

The best part of reading this thread is the fact that Metz has commented roughly 34,873 times and nobody has responded at all...

so +2 for this topic

on a side note: I wish our team could get Blue STL jerseys like the red atlanta hawks unis...