Missouri State

[Cowboy]

Alabama is an interesting case. They have a terrible RPI (78) yet a very good record in a strong conference (12-4 in SEC.) What is killing them is a bad non-conf schedule which included 3 straight losses to Seton Hall, Iowa and St. Peter's. An additional loss to a bad Providence team didn't help. However, if you are going to penalize MO State for having a weak non-conf schedule, then you should stay consistent with Alabama.

-there was a point in the last couple of weeks noting that the ivy league had a tougher conf sos then the sec west, don't know if that still holds

-per kenpom alabama played the easiest sec schedule

-sorry 'bama, if i were picking you would make it after princeton

[Bay Area Billiken]

The Pac-10 doesn't deserve more than 3 teams in, and 3 is being generous with Washington. Cal and USC have no business being considered bubble teams, IMO. USC has lost 3 games this season to teams with RPIs over 200 (Bradley, TCU and Oregon State.)

The only way the Pac-10 could get more than 3 teams (Arizona, UCLA, and Washington) is if someone else wins the Pac-10 Tournament. I don't buy that Cal and USC are bubble teams either. But Cal's RPI (66) is better than Marquette's (68). We're already starting to hear again about East Coast bias, which is a perennial cry our West. Lute Olsen used to give his annual State of the Pac-10 speech before the Pac-10 Tournament and claim that the Pac-10 was not getting its just due. I wouldn't be surprised if we hear something like that from Cal's Mike Montgomery. Of course, Monty and Cal won't play St. Mary's from the other side of the Caldecott Tunnel at all, and never would be caught playing a WCC team outside Berkeley.

The best league in the West is the Mountain West, with San Diego State (RPI 3), BYU (4), UNLV (25), and even Colorado State (43). The Mountain West's Conference RPI is #4. The Pac-10 is #7, the WAC is #13, and the WCC is #14. The WCC will be a stronger league next year when BYU joins.

[BBall Fan]

Here is Mo state's tournament resume.

Record - 25-8 (17-4)

RPI - 42

SOS - 128

Record against rpi top 50 - 0-1

Record against rpi top 100 - 3-6

Best win Wichita State - RPI 59

Worst loss @Evansville - RPI 140

They have a lot of wins but haven't actually beaten many good teams.

The Valley is also down this year. The MVC is ranked 12th in rpi as a conference this year.

I really don't have a problem with them being left out.

They beat absolutely noone this year. This goes right along the lines of what they plan to do next year. May told me at a Billiken Club meeting that MO. St. called and just backed out of our agreement to play them next year. with or without WR, we will not be bad enough for them to put on their schedule. My message would be beat someone and we will think about considering you.

Cuonzo was on with Bernie today and was complaining about noone will play them. I believe RM when he says this sort of thing, but I do not believe Cuonzo for a minute. He proved otherwise by cancelling their games with us.

[waldo027]

That's too bad, I was really looking forward to stomping them at Chaifetz next year.

[The Wiz]

Yep.

They'd go 5-13 or so in the Big East. Seton Hall would pound them into dust.

And, who TF cares about MO State, anyway? Not me.

I am showing something close to this. Mo St slightly better than Providence (4 wins) and Rutgers(5 wins) but not as good as Seton Hall (7 wins) ....so Mo St would finish at 6-12 in the Big East.(13th pl)

Btw...if Mo St was in the A-10 they would finish 5th.

[slu72]

Answer: Mo. State's RPI is 42, and with the expanded field by 3 more at larges, the NCAA cuts off per the RPI at 52, 8 teams below #42 Mo. State, and Mo. State is the regular season MVC Champ, which differentiates this year's team from the two past snubbed teams.

This being said, Joe Lunardi reportedly has a 97% rate of picking the field. So Mo. State must be in some bubble trouble.

His latest is Colorado, MSU, Clemson, and Marquette getting in. MoSt out along w/ GA and AL and someone else. Colorado is a real stretch.

[Bay Area Billiken]

His latest is Colorado, MSU, Clemson, and Marquette getting in. MoSt out along w/ GA and AL and someone else. Colorado is a real stretch.

If Colorado gets in, then there must be a reserved number of BCS conference bids for schools meeting certain criteria, which has been routinely denied in the past.

Mo. State fans at www.msubearnation.com are registering on the Whine-O-Meter, claiming Mo. State is not respected in the MVC, complaining about the officiating in Sunday's loss to Indiana State. Some Mo. State fans are posting about a conference move, with C-USA being the one discussed for such a Mo. State move.

It is amusing that Mo. State is being dogged for strength of schedule, yet dropped SLU for next year when Mo. State knows full well that SLU is going to loaded next year and doesn't want to lose to the Billikens. They are reaping what they are sewing.

Out West, Gonzaga won the WCC. So St. Mary's joins Mo. State on the bubble. In the Colonial, an NCAA at large bid was preserved as Old Dominion beat VCU.

[jbizzle09]

If MO State does not get into the dance, despite a 15-3 conference record and 25 wins overall, then that should absolutely end any and all discussion about how SLU should move to the MVC. If the regular season champ of a conference with an RPI of 42 cannot get into a recently expanded NCAA field, why the hell would you want to move to that conference?

[MB73]

If MO State does not get into the dance, despite a 15-3 conference record and 25 wins overall, then that should absolutely end any and all discussion about how SLU should move to the MVC. If the regular season champ of a conference with an RPI of 42 cannot get into a recently expanded NCAA field, why the hell would you want to move to that conference?

Absolutely? Pretty harsh.

You do not present a valid argument (and not the only issue with the MVC - A-10 debate, there are many).

By your own logic, if MO State does get in and Richmond does not, then the MVC has 2 of 10 (20%), the A-10 has 2 of 14 (14%) , so the MVC is clearly superior. Your logic.

[JettFlight5]

Absolutely? Pretty harsh.

You do not present a valid argument (and not the only issue with the MVC - A-10 debate, there are many).

By your own logic, if MO State does get in and Richmond does not, then the MVC has 2 of 10 (20%), the A-10 has 2 of 14 (14%) , so the MVC is clearly superior. Your logic.

The debate is pretty much worthless now. Unless the A-10 or Big East breaks up, SLU isn't going anywhere. I agree that if they can't pull an at-large out of a 25 win team, it would be difficult to justify playing there.

[Clock_Tower]

Absolutely? Pretty harsh.

You do not present a valid argument (and not the only issue with the MVC - A-10 debate, there are many).

By your own logic, if MO State does get in and Richmond does not, then the MVC has 2 of 10 (20%), the A-10 has 2 of 14 (14%) , so the MVC is clearly superior. Your logic.

+1 jbizzle.

MB. We know of your love for the Valley. Apparently, this is clouding your judgment. Bizzle is making a good point. IMO, the regular conferenc winner of a good conference should be invited -- end of discussion. The fact that the MVC has 2 less teams means nothing. Bizzle is simply suggesting, right or wrong, that the regular season winner of the A10, just like the BCS conferences, is all but a sure thing. With the Valley, apparently it is not.

[jbizzle09]

Absolutely? Pretty harsh.

You do not present a valid argument (and not the only issue with the MVC - A-10 debate, there are many).

By your own logic, if MO State does get in and Richmond does not, then the MVC has 2 of 10 (20%), the A-10 has 2 of 14 (14%) , so the MVC is clearly superior. Your logic.

If MO State does not get in (which is very, very likely), this will be the 4th straight year that the MVC is a one-bid conference. If Richmond makes the tourney (pretty good chance) this will be the 4th straight season that the A-10 has received 3 bids. In the previous 20 years, the A-10 has only received 1 bid twice. During the same period of time, the MVC has received 1 bid 8 times.

A lot of the credit for the multiple bid seasons the MVC enjoyed in the early-to-mid 2000s is due to how strong the SIU program was. They were consistently given at-large bids and only won one conference tourney, thus allowing at least another team from the MVC to get in. '05 and '06 were seasons where the MVC got more than 2 teams in. However, in '06, MO State was left on the outside looking in despite having an RPI of 21. Seems like the committee decided that season to not look at RPI because they could not fathom the MVC having 5 teams in.

Since SIU fell back to earth after 2007, the MVC has resumed being a one-bid conference. In fact, if Creighton hadn't won the conf tourney in 2007, this could have potentially been 5 straight years of Juan Bid making a trip to the NCAAs. So yes, I do believe that if MO State doesn't make it then this should end the MVC v. A-10 debate for good. I don't hate the MVC, far from it. I enjoy going to the MVC tourney every year and I actually root for the conference to get more than one bid a season. But the reality is that the A-10 is the best chance for SLU to get into the tourney. It is now apparent that the MVC is looked at as a low-major by the committee.

[Clock_Tower]

If MO State does not get in (which is very, very likely), this will be the 4th straight year that the MVC is a one-bid conference. If Richmond makes the tourney (pretty good chance) this will be the 4th straight season that the A-10 has received 3 bids. In the previous 20 years, the A-10 has only received 1 bid twice. During the same period of time, the MVC has received 1 bid 8 times.

A lot of the credit for the multiple bid seasons the MVC enjoyed in the early-to-mid 2000s is due to how strong the SIU program was. They were consistently given at-large bids and only won one conference tourney, thus allowing at least another team from the MVC to get in. '05 and '06 were seasons where the MVC got more than 2 teams in. However, in '06, MO State was left on the outside looking in despite having an RPI of 21. Seems like the committee decided that season to not look at RPI because they could not fathom the MVC having 5 teams in.

Since SIU fell back to earth after 2007, the MVC has resumed being a one-bid conference. In fact, if Creighton hadn't won the conf tourney in 2007, this could have potentially been 5 straight years of Juan Bid making a trip to the NCAAs. So yes, I do believe that if MO State doesn't make it then this should end the MVC v. A-10 debate for good. I don't hate the MVC, far from it. I enjoy going to the MVC tourney every year and I actually root for the conference to get more than one bid a season. But the reality is that the A-10 is the best chance for SLU to get into the tourney. It is now apparent that the MVC is looked at as a low-major by the committee.

Why else would Missouri State be looking elsewhere -- whether seriously or not -- such as to Conf USA other than for a better way to get to the Tourney.

[jbizzle09]

Per ESPN's Bubble Watch today, they have completely taken MO State off. They have also done the same thing with most of C-USA, only listing UAB as a potential at-large team from the conference. Also, the writer for the Bubble Watch states that RPI now needs to go and uses UAB as a perfect example, since they have an RPI of 28. The majority of that RPI is based mostly on having a good conference record in what amounts to be a decent conference, as well as scheduling a halfway decent non conf slate (Duke, Georgia, VCU, Kent State are top 100). Still, he doesn't really feel they are a worthy at-large team but that RPI might just sneak them in if they don't win the tourney (they are the regular season champs!)

I think it will be a shame if C-USA, with 6 teams in the top 60 in RPI, is relegated to Juan Bid status this season. It seems to be more justification by ESPN and Co. to give credence for the Big East getting in 11 teams, the Big 12, ACC, Big 10 and SEC 6 teams a piece. Obviously, we have to find a way to shoe-horn Alabama, Michigan State, Michigan, Marquette and Va Tech into the tourney. So tell Memphis, So Miss, Marshall and UTEP that there is no way they have a chance unless they win the conf tourney. They keep saying it enough then the committee will listen.

[BBall Fan]

The debate is pretty much worthless now. Unless the A-10 or Big East breaks up, SLU isn't going anywhere. I agree that if they can't pull an at-large out of a 25 win team, it would be difficult to justify playing there.

Totally agree. The A 10 might not be the ideal spot for SLU to play, but the MVC will NEVER be the place. Temple and X are going to draw some national attention every year and others fluctuate. The MVC draws absolutely no national attention. SIU had a few good years nationally and Creighton had a few moments in the sun when Korver was there but I cannot remember seeing an MVC team on television in the last few years. Hell, ESPNU would rather play patriot League and Atlantic Sun games.

Conference USA is not much better than the MVC. I had to look at the Conference USA ESPN page to see who all was even in the conference. That conference lost it when Calipari left Memphis. In relation to Basketball conference, SLU is right where they need to be at the moment. When the Big East reorganizes, SLU will be in a perfect spot to join a newly aligned basketball conference.

[The Dude]

Big East will have 17 B-Ball schools with the addition of TCU next year. They need to add 3 more football teams to get to 12 football teams in order to hold a post season playoff. Would they accept a 20 team B-Ball league? Or will they look to dis-invite 4 non-football schools to pare back to 16 teams. This could free up Marquette, Depaul, Providence and one other non-football school. If Marquette and Depaul are available, Dayton, Xavier, SLU could join together for a solid core for a new conference. Perhaps they pull in Butler and look to the MVC to pick up Creighton and Bradley. And then look to add the Zags and the Gaels (kidding about this last part).

[MB73]

+1 jbizzle.

MB. We know of your love for the Valley. Apparently, this is clouding your judgment. Bizzle is making a good point. IMO, the regular conferenc winner of a good conference should be invited -- end of discussion. The fact that the MVC has 2 less teams means nothing. Bizzle is simply suggesting, right or wrong, that the regular season winner of the A10, just like the BCS conferences, is all but a sure thing. With the Valley, apparently it is not.

Where do you draw the line? Every conference gets their regular season winner in and the conference tournament winner (if different)? Which conferences? Summit Conference? Patriot League?

And his point was brash, he said it cemented the argument about us and the MVC.

Hey, it is not that I think that the MVC is so great, I have merely stood by my belief that we should have joined the MVC 8 yrs ago instead of the A-10 for many reasons.

Reasons? Lets not start that again (how'd you like watching our game on TV tonight... oh, sorry). And 4 more teams, not 2.

(A-10 pulled away from MVC last 2 yrs... yes... first 6 yrs it was a toss up... and it is cyclical, good coaches left MVC after good runs at SIUC, Drake, etc...and, of course I agree it would be best to start a new conference, SLU-Dayton-Xavier-DePaul-etc)

[jbizzle09]

Where do you draw the line? Every conference gets their regular season winner in and the conference tournament winner (if different)? Which conferences? Summit Conference? Patriot League?And his point was brash, he said it cemented the argument about us and the MVC.

Hey, it is not that I think that the MVC is so great, I have merely stood by my belief that we should have joined the MVC 8 yrs ago instead of the A-10 for many reasons.

Reasons? Lets not start that again (how'd you like watching our game on TV tonight... oh, sorry). And 4 more teams, not 2.

(and, of course it would be great to start a new conference, SLU-Dayton-Xavier-DePaul-etc)

That is not the point. My point is that if you are in a conference where the regular season champ is not assured a place in the NCAA tourney, then you are in a low-major conference, a one-bid conference. The A-10 is not in that position. I would consider the A-10 to be right below the BCS conferences in terms of prestige, along with C-USA and the MWC. The MVC, however, is on the same level as the Horizon and CAA, which is a small conference that might occasionally get more than one team in the dance. And sorry to appear brash, but I don't see anyway that it can be argued that SLU did not make the right decision in joining the A-10 right now.

[Cowboy]

That is not the point. My point is that if you are in a conference where the regular season champ is not assured a place in the NCAA tourney, then you are in a low-major conference, a one-bid conference. The A-10 is not in that position. I would consider the A-10 to be right below the BCS conferences in terms of prestige, along with C-USA and the MWC. The MVC, however, is on the same level as the Horizon and CAA, which is a small conference that might occasionally get more than one team in the dance. And sorry to appear brash, but I don't see anyway that it can be argued that SLU did not make the right decision in joining the A-10 right now.

-bizzle i share your view

[MB73]

(looking at recent history... when SLU coulda shoulda moved to MVC 8-9 yrs ago whenever TF that was).

That is not the point. My point is that if you are in a conference where the regular season champ is not assured a place in the NCAA tourney, then you are in a low-major conference, a one-bid conference. The A-10 is not in that position. I would consider the A-10 to be right below the BCS conferences in terms of prestige, along with C-USA and the MWC. The MVC, however, is on the same level as the Horizon and CAA, which is a small conference that might occasionally get more than one team in the dance. And sorry to appear brash, but I don't see anyway that it can be argued that SLU did not make the right decision in joining the A-10 right now.

You imply everything is in granite. Again, there is a chance that MO State gets in and Richmond does not. Then, where goes your supreme theory?

And the A-10 just pulled away from MVC in RPI and NCAA bids the last 2 yrs, you suggest it is the Yankees compared to the Royals. Xavier is the only team in either league to survive coaching changes and still dominate, they have a total commmittment to the sport. Temple is in that category, too, though not quite as strong. Those two teams are essentially the difference between the two leagues. All the rest (in both leagues) are subject to successful coaching regimes, recruits, random occurances... they come and they go, Hobbs. Recent years: GW, Drake, SIUC, St. Joes, for example, had great runs, then blew up.

Odds are against it, but not too big of a longshot, you will eat crow if MO State gets in and Richmond does not. What is funny is I hope that MO State does not get in... f*ck 'em. And wait and see, big shot coach Cuonzo Martin will leave this year or the next, upgrade to a lower level BCS school, somewhere like Minnesota.

(And, again, NCAA bids are not the sole determinant as to why we should have gone to the MVC at the time; there are numerous other factors. You just cite one and call it a day. Oh, and Majerus says we should have been in the MVC. But you are more knowledgeable and experienced than him I guess. Please explain, what has being in the A-10 done for SLU so far?)

[Bobby Metzinger]

Creighton had a few moments in the sun when Korver was there

How many Korver Kids are there?!? There's Kaleb Korver there now!

[mizzoumike]

What is funny is I hope that MO State does not get in... f*ck 'em. And wait and see, big shot coach Cuonzo Martin will leave this year or the next, upgrade to a lower level BCS school, somewhere like Minnesota.

(And, again, NCAA bids are not the sole determinant as to why we should have gone to the MVC at the time; there are numerous other factors. You just cite one and call it a day. Oh, and Majerus says we should have been in the MVC. But you are more knowledgeable and experienced than him I guess. Please explain, what has being in the A-10 done for SLU so far?)

You are completely right about one issue and completely wrong about another. First off, Cuonzo ain't leaving us anytime soon. I don't know if I would go as far as to say that Missouri State is a destination job, but from what I have heard the only job he would realistically leave for would be Purdue and Painter seems pretty secure there. Cuonzo is going to be at MSU longer than either Anderson at MU or Majerus at SLU.

Secondly you are completely right about you all belonging in the MVC. This is where you need to be...as long as our league office will let you in that is. This charade that you have a higher mission that means that you need to travel to Olean, NY every year is absurd. Your snobbery has been noted throughout the Valley though so if conference armaggedon happens you might have to beg a little to Doug Elgin to get in. But ultimately that is the best fit. You can't realistically think you can compete in the A10 but in time you would be competitive in the Valley I believe. Possibly you could eventually turn out similar to Wichita State or Creighton. How am I the only one that sees this? Do you want to be like Creighton or do you want to be like La Salle? No brainer to this Valley fan.

[jbizzle09]

You imply everything is in granite. Again, there is a chance that MO State gets in and Richmond does not. Then, where goes your supreme theory?

And the A-10 just pulled away from MVC in RPI and NCAA bids the last 2 yrs, you suggest it is the Yankees compared to the Royals. Xavier is the only team in either league to survive coaching changes and still dominate, they have a total commmittment to the sport. Temple is in that category, too, though not quite as strong. Those two teams are essentially the difference between the two leagues. All the rest (in both leagues) are subject to successful coaching regimes, recruits, random occurances... they come and they go, Hobbs. Recent years: GW, Drake, SIUC, St. Joes, for example, had great runs, then blew up.

Odds are against it, but not too big of a longshot, you will eat crow if MO State gets in and Richmond does not. What is funny is I hope that MO State does not get in... f*ck 'em. And wait and see, big shot coach Cuonzo Martin will leave this year or the next, upgrade to a lower level BCS school, somewhere like Minnesota.

(And, again, NCAA bids are not the sole determinant as to why we should have gone to the MVC at the time; there are numerous other factors. You just cite one and call it a day. Oh, and Majerus says we should have been in the MVC. But you are more knowledgeable and experienced than him I guess. Please explain, what has being in the A-10 done for SLU so far?)

I don't have a supreme theory. I just think it is obvious which conference is better for SLU. Also, other than a two year period in the mid-2000's, the A-10 has been pretty much been the superior conference. As I stated earlier, in the past 20 years, the MVC has been a one-bid conference 8 times, the A-10 only twice. That stat right there should tell you that in recent history the MVC has usually been below the A-10 in quality.

Also, I do not see any scenario where MO State gets selected but Richmond does not. It isn't a longshot, it is basically a no shot. If that happens, I will gladly eat crow. But it is more likely that neither make it, or even both make it, than MO State making it but Richmond not. But in the very unlikely scenario that it does occur, I will concede that perhaps their could be some justification for someone to feel that the MVC is a better conference for SLU than the A-10. However, in all likelihood, the MVC is going to go its 4th straight year with just one bid.

I would also state that Majerus has definitely cooled down the pro-MVC rhetoric in the past year. And it is obvious his big issue with being in the A-10 is travel for students, which is why we had the whole charter flight fiasco. But, I am pretty sure if you asked him which conference is superior, he would say the A-10 without hesitation. And, once again, that is my whole point. The A-10 is a far superior conference than the MVC and will be going forward. And that is reason enough for SLU to be in the A-10 over the MVC.

[mizzoumike]

In terms of the A10 vs. the Valley, I think the A10 is probably a bit better this year but it is close most years. Xavier and occasionally Temple carry the banner for your league and Temple always chokes in the tournament so I'm not sure that they matter. Look at it like this, in the last decade which league has left a bigger impact in March? You have the unforgettable images of UNI last year, Missouri State in 99, several teams in 2006 including Bradley topping a terrrific Kansas team, and so forth. All I can think of for the A10 is Xavier playing Ohio State tough the year that Oden was there. Not very memorable. Our league champ almost always plays well above their seed, the A10 teams while seeded higher, rarely accomplish much IMO.

[Bobby Metzinger]

You are completely right about one issue and completely wrong about another. First off, Cuonzo ain't leaving us anytime soon. I don't know if I would go as far as to say that Missouri State is a destination job, but from what I have heard the only job he would realistically leave for would be Purdue and Painter seems pretty secure there. Cuonzo is going to be at MSU longer than either Anderson at MU or Majerus at SLU.

Secondly you are completely right about you all belonging in the MVC. This is where you need to be...as long as our league office will let you in that is. This charade that you have a higher mission that means that you need to travel to Olean, NY every year is absurd. Your snobbery has been noted throughout the Valley though so if conference armaggedon happens you might have to beg a little to Doug Elgin to get in. But ultimately that is the best fit. You can't realistically think you can compete in the A10 but in time you would be competitive in the Valley I believe. Possibly you could eventually turn out similar to Wichita State or Creighton. How am I the only one that sees this? Do you want to be like Creighton or do you want to be like La Salle? No brainer to this Valley fan.

I've met with both Doug Elgin and Jack Watkins (Associate Commissioner and Mizzou Journalism grad) at Bradley events in STL and they both think having SLU would be a boost to the league, but it's not up to them. They can't force Father B's hand. From a logistics standpoint you are absolutely correct - a Tuesday night game in Omaha makes sense. A Tuesday night game in Olean, NY does not. However, this whole attempt from Larry to get SLU more East Coast exposure has come at a significant cost and it has been a lesson in futility. Unless someone from admissions can come back to us with figures saying our applicant pool from NYC, Philly, DC and points elsewhere has doubled since leaving C-USA, Fr. B's experiment has been an utter failure.

And this "Xavier and Dayton" makes us better" logic is also a joke. Look at NC State. They play in arguably the best conference in the country and they are at best the 6th best basketball school in NC trailing Duke, UNC, Wake, Davidson and Charlotte. Having talented teams in your conference doesn't mean jack if you can't compete with them on the court and on the recruiting trail.