Duke: What Did You Expect?

[slufanskip]

I expected less than what I got.

Seriously, as they stand right now how many players do we have that would be in Duke's top 8? Not how many would be a sophs, jr's, or Sr.'s, how many right now if they play well. My answer would be zero. We had 2, but we all know the story with them.

Even with KM and WR would anyone have been upset with a 15-20 point loss @ Duke? I wouldn't have been. Would a closer game have been possible, of course, but certainly not expected.

KC - what would his role be if he played for Duke? How about CR, BC, CE, or PE? Would any of them be in Duke's top 10 as they are right now?

Despite that, I was impressed with the freshman overall. Rob Loe just isn't physically ready for this type of a game as a go-to guy. If we had KM, WR, and a healthy CE, he'd be a 4th option at best. MM, DE, and JJ showed they weren't intimidated. They all have work to do, but what did we expect? We aren't recruiting one and doners. We aren't even recruiting 4 star players, much less 5. All of these freshman should be players that are playing a role on a good team. None of them have the ability to be go to type guys on a good team. I think we'll find out a few have the ability to score for a bad team, but they won't be consistent, and that is expected.

It's too bad players did silly crap and SLU reacted as they did resulting in us losing our best 2 players and our best two players at what happens to be the 2 most important positions, but it happened, so yes, it's hard being a Billiken Fan, but if you are going to be one, relax, get rid of your expectations and enjoy the moments we do get.

[billikendave]

I expected less than what I got.

....

It's too bad players did silly crap and SLU reacted as they did resulting in us losing our best 2 players and our best two players at what happens to be the 2 most important positions, but it happened, so yes, it's hard being a Billiken Fan, but if you are going to be one, relax, get rid of your expectations and enjoy the moments we do get.

Skip: You expected to be blown out by more than 37 points and not have it be remotely competitive from the opening tip????

Have we as a fan base just completely given up?

Where are our donors when it comes to putting pressure on the Administration? We a HOF coach. We have a beautiful arena. I think what we are seeing is that it takes a commitment by the Administration to want to be better. Theres a reason teh LA Clippers are what they are. The Lakers have the same salary cap, same facility but the difference is staggering. I think the Administration and Faculty (as a whole) still think of the Athletic department as it did in 1982.

[slufanskip]

Skip: You expected to be blown out by more than 37 points and not have it be remotely competitive from the opening tip????

Have we as a fan base just completely given up?

Where are our donors when it comes to putting pressure on the Administration? We a HOF coach. We have a beautiful arena. I think what we are seeing is that it takes a commitment by the Administration to want to be better. Theres a reason teh LA Clippers are what they are. The Lakers have the same salary cap, same facility but the difference is staggering. I think the Administration and Faculty (as a whole) still think of the Athletic department as it did in 1982.

Yes, and imo to have expected anything different is just unrealistic. Hope for, ok. Expect, no.

It seems to me many people just don't get what losing two players like KM and WR do to a team like us. I don't think RM has done anything wrong. We've all already been over the situation that has left us without the 2 players, so there is no use continuing or rehashing that.

RM had every right to expect to have his full team. Who do you think is going to step up and be the main 2 or 3 scorers on this team?

KC- Sorry, but he doesn't have the skill or the athleticism. Kyle has a valuable role on a good team as a glue guy who helps the offense run smoothly and should have the ability to score as the defense permits. However, if you are looking for him to be a guy who creates his own shot and scores in double figures while being a main focus of the oponents defense, you're in for a letdown.

BC- Seriously? He should be coming off the bench playing 10-15 minutes a game. And with WR that is what he'd be.

CE- Maybe, but he's been sick, burnt his hand and is trying to learn a new position. He was expected to be a 3rd scoring option with KM and WR drawing the main focus of the defense.

CR- He's not even ready to be a starter. He should have redshirted last year. He's a 10 - 15 min guy off the bench. Asking him to be an inside target and play 25-30 minutes a game isn't fair.

PE- I'm not even going to comment.

Everyone else is are freshman who would have been looking to play a role and contribute, nothing more. As it is now a couple of guys who should have been our 3rd and 4th offensive options have to become 1 and 2. Guys who should be coming off the bench for a few minutes a game have to become starters and major contributors. We didn't just lose 2 players, we lost our 2 best players. Our 2 best players by far.

[GOSLU68]

Skip: You expected to be blown out by more than 37 points and not have it be remotely competitive from the opening tip????

Have we as a fan base just completely given up?

Where are our donors when it comes to putting pressure on the Administration? We a HOF coach. We have a beautiful arena. I think what we are seeing is that it takes a commitment by the Administration to want to be better. Theres a reason teh LA Clippers are what they are. The Lakers have the same salary cap, same facility but the difference is staggering. I think the Administration and Faculty (as a whole) still think of the Athletic department as it did in 1982.

What is your point Chaifetz did not buy us the LA team and the last one we got from LA is a prime example of how fast a sled goes down hill and how it gets harder to pull it up hill every time you take the ride

[Bay Area Billiken]

Lastly, I blame this on SLU. In part because of the situation. But more, why do you schedule this game when you know what's going on behind the scenes this summer. I get that the AD may not have known but then the Administration completely dropped the ball by not intervening.

Oh yeah, everyone thinks SLU would be considered in a conference reshuffling. Big East schools' alumni and boosters watching that game would say why would we ever consider SLU?

One really wonders if the proverbial right hand knew what the left hand was doing at SLU. I think if there was any way, this Duke game should not have been played this season, either canceled or deferred. Further, without knowing, perhaps there was nothing that SLU could do once the game was scheduled and moreover to be on CBS as the lead-in to the Army-Navy game. But it is too bad this game had to be played under the circumstances.

For instance, the "highlights" were on the TV and seen throughout the nation, the score with some type of game summary was in most papers nationally, since Duke is ranked and #1.

I received a text from someone who knows very little about SLU Basketball (as if I didn't know what happened).

Sorry and I don't want to be negative. But I am concerned about what has happened to the SLU Basketball Program.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Suffice it to say, I hope the players are reinstated.

A couple of good players can make a huge difference in college basketball, as can a Coach for that matter. Look at Fordham, which has arisen from the deep abyss after hiring a good Coach.

Majerus is an excellent coach. Now SLU needs to reinstate his players so he can do the job he was hired to do.

[SpencerFilibuster]

Despite that, I was impressed with the freshman overall. Rob Loe just isn't physically ready for this type of a game as a go-to guy.

I agree with the Loe comment, but I thought he looked a lot better on the defensive end. He's still scaring me when he flashes up at the top of the key to help....but that scared me when Willie did it too.

[ACE]

Yes, and imo to have expected anything different is just unrealistic. Hope for, ok. Expect, no.

It seems to me many people just don't get what losing two players like KM and WR do to a team like us. I don't think RM has done anything wrong. We've all already been over the situation that has left us without the 2 players, so there is no use continuing or rehashing that.

RM had every right to expect to have his full team. Who do you think is going to step up and be the main 2 or 3 scorers on this team?

KC- Sorry, but he doesn't have the skill or the athleticism. Kyle has a valuable role on a good team as a glue guy who helps the offense run smoothly and should have the ability to score as the defense permits. However, if you are looking for him to be a guy who creates his own shot and scores in double figures while being a main focus of the oponents defense, you're in for a letdown.

BC- Seriously? He should be coming off the bench playing 10-15 minutes a game. And with WR that is what he'd be.

CE- Maybe, but he's been sick, burnt his hand and is trying to learn a new position. He was expected to be a 3rd scoring option with KM and WR drawing the main focus of the defense.

CR- He's not even ready to be a starter. He should have redshirted last year. He's a 10 - 15 min guy off the bench. Asking him to be an inside target and play 25-30 minutes a game isn't fair.

PE- I'm not even going to comment.

Everyone else is are freshman who would have been looking to play a role and contribute, nothing more. As it is now a couple of guys who should have been our 3rd and 4th offensive options have to become 1 and 2. Guys who should be coming off the bench for a few minutes a game have to become starters and major contributors. We didn't just lose 2 players, we lost our 2 best players. Our 2 best players by far.

That pretty well sums it up. I think it was difficult for many of us, myself included, to initially wrap our arms around the impact of the KM/WR deal. We all expected a potential breakthrough season, but then this just put such a sudden end to those hopes. The fact that there is still uncertainty about the future of KM/WR is also unsettling. Hopefully they are both back, but just having it resolved will help everyone move on. If anything positive can be taken from this mess, is is that the freshmen are gaining some great experience. They have each shown some promise and I especially like the potential of the young backcourt. When you add in the addition of Barnett, there still is the potential for a bright future. The prospect of Loe, Evans, Barnett, Jett and McCall in the same class is exciting. We can still have that breakthrough, it just may take longer than many of us originally hoped.

[The Pelican]

Skip: You expected to be blown out by more than 37 points and not have it be remotely competitive from the opening tip????

Have we as a fan base just completely given up?

I misread the quoted post. It was redacted. Sorry.

[billikendave]

What is your point Chaifetz did not buy us the LA team and the last one we got from LA is a prime example of how fast a sled goes down hill and how it gets harder to pull it up hill every time you take the ride

The point is: unless the administration is fully supportive of the athletic department and wants it to thrive, it won't.

If you don't like the NBA analogy, use the whatever pro team that has been preennially bad because of bad ownership/management. I don't blame Rickma for this team.

I had hoped that with the new arena and hiring of Rickma that SLU had taken the leap. However, little has actually changed (look at the charter flights issue.) See Cheryl Levick leaving after Biondi went around her and athletic department to fire Soderberg.

Please keep in mind the Duke game was scheduled in JULY. The "situation" happened in May. Again, HOW DOES THE AD schedule this game if he knows that there is a realistic possibility that our best players (KM and WR) are gone. The answer has to be that the AD didn't know or wasn't in the loop on what sort of sanctions were being considered. Same for putting KM and WR on season tickets and billboards!

I don't want the AD or Rickma running the school. This drubbing on national tv is directly caused by the delay in hearing the matter until September/October. This is directly caused by teh Administation not letting Chris May and staff know what was going on or what is at stake. This is without getting into the shenannigans of the hearing itself.

AND if Chris May did know about all of the severity of the issues and the adminstration did keep them in the loop and he scheduled the game, put KM and WR on billboards and tickets anyway, that should be addressed too.

[slufanskip]

The point is: unless the administration is fully supportive of the athletic department and wants it to thrive, it won't.

If you don't like the NBA analogy, use the whatever pro team that has been preennially bad because of bad ownership/management. I don't blame Rickma for this team.

I had hoped that with the new arena and hiring of Rickma that SLU had taken the leap. However, little has actually changed (look at the charter flights issue.) See Cheryl Levick leaving after Biondi went around her and athletic department to fire Soderberg.

Please keep in mind the Duke game was scheduled in JULY. The "situation" happened in May. Again, HOW DOES THE AD schedule this game if he knows that there is a realistic possibility that our best players (KM and WR) are gone. The answer has to be that the AD didn't know or wasn't in the loop on what sort of sanctions were being considered. Same for putting KM and WR on season tickets and billboards!

I don't want the AD or Rickma running the school. This drubbing on national tv is directly caused by the delay in hearing the matter until September/October. This is directly caused by teh Administation not letting Chris May and staff know what was going on or what is at stake. This is without getting into the shenannigans of the hearing itself.

AND if Chris May did know about all of the severity of the issues and the adminstration did keep them in the loop and he scheduled the game, put KM and WR on billboards and tickets anyway, that should be addressed too.

agreed

[billiken_roy]

Yes, and imo to have expected anything different is just unrealistic. Hope for, ok. Expect, no.

It seems to me many people just don't get what losing two players like KM and WR do to a team like us. I don't think RM has done anything wrong. We've all already been over the situation that has left us without the 2 players, so there is no use continuing or rehashing that.

RM had every right to expect to have his full team. Who do you think is going to step up and be the main 2 or 3 scorers on this team?

KC- Sorry, but he doesn't have the skill or the athleticism. Kyle has a valuable role on a good team as a glue guy who helps the offense run smoothly and should have the ability to score as the defense permits. However, if you are looking for him to be a guy who creates his own shot and scores in double figures while being a main focus of the oponents defense, you're in for a letdown.

BC- Seriously? He should be coming off the bench playing 10-15 minutes a game. And with WR that is what he'd be.

CE- Maybe, but he's been sick, burnt his hand and is trying to learn a new position. He was expected to be a 3rd scoring option with KM and WR drawing the main focus of the defense.

CR- He's not even ready to be a starter. He should have redshirted last year. He's a 10 - 15 min guy off the bench. Asking him to be an inside target and play 25-30 minutes a game isn't fair.

PE- I'm not even going to comment.

Everyone else is are freshman who would have been looking to play a role and contribute, nothing more. As it is now a couple of guys who should have been our 3rd and 4th offensive options have to become 1 and 2. Guys who should be coming off the bench for a few minutes a game have to become starters and major contributors. We didn't just lose 2 players, we lost our 2 best players. Our 2 best players by far.

skip, pretty good post, however i want to point out that conklin is only averaging 13 mpg. eckerle also. cory only 18. so that kinda changes your post on the three of them.

imo, the story of this team as it is right now, is how fast can the four freshmen develop. imo, they with cassity are our team. let em play big minutes. until ellis and salecich and cory start playing with the same energy let them continue to see conklin and eckerle minutes

[slufan13]

skip, pretty good post, however i want to point out that conklin is only averaging 13 mpg. eckerle also. cory only 18. so that kinda changes your post on the three of them.

imo, the story of this team as it is right now, is how fast can the four freshmen develop. imo, they with cassity are our team. let em play big minutes. until ellis and salecich and cory start playing with the same energy let them continue to see conklin and eckerle minutes

I really like the 4 freshmen and Cassity line-up. I just don't want to develop these guys into being 100% ready and then only getting 1 year out of them because RM redshirts KM and WR. Let them play now. It might actually help develop Loe a little bit to have Willie in there. Jett and McCall look very promising. Especially McCall. Don't redshirt KM and only have MM lead your team for 1 year. Evans also looks really good and could be a special player when he's ready to play inside and outside. Another problem with the redshirting will be next years lineup. KM, KC, Barnett look like 3 great guards. McCall and Jett go from 25+ minutes a game to have their minutes seriously cut in to especially with KM running the point. Even with KC gone the next year it's still hard to find enough playing time. These guys need to be on the court. I think KM and MM could play off the ball a bit, but Jett seems like he needs to be at the point since he can't shoot. JB and KC can play the 3 but I think we'll find that we want both of them out there. Also if we redshirt them, DE will lose minutes his sophomore and junior years.

[slufanskip]

skip, pretty good post, however i want to point out that conklin is only averaging 13 mpg. eckerle also. cory only 18. so that kinda changes your post on the three of them.

imo, the story of this team as it is right now, is how fast can the four freshmen develop. imo, they with cassity are our team. let em play big minutes. until ellis and salecich and cory start playing with the same energy let them continue to see conklin and eckerle minutes

which means we are even relying on freshman more. It doesn't really change my post though. The point was that none of them can be or should be expected to supply starter minutes and starter results. The fact he isn't even giving them starter minutes actually says a lot for what he thinks of the freshmen.

This season is what it is. It just isn't fair to RM or to the players to expect them to be something they aren't because 2 players got kicked off the team. We can say all we want ... "someone needs to step up" but it's unrealistic. If you run the mile (shows how old I am I still think of the mile as an event) and you are the 3rd best runner on your team consistently running around 4:20 placing yourself at the top of the heap for 3rd type runners on a team ... and your teams number one and two runners quit, is it fair to expect that you can start running a time of 4 minutes because your team now needs you to step up?

[billiken_roy]

20 seconds off a mile time at the point in time your body is fully mature and in top condition isnt physically possible.

making free throws and cutting out half of our turnovers a game isnt the same thing and yes i think those two aspects are possible to achieve without the top two players. we probably have at least two more wins if not three on the year right now if we would have cut each games turnovers in half and made 70% of our free throws.

add to that continued development of the more gifted freshmen, i see no reason the billikens cant still have a good season regardless of reinstatements.

[eastsidejoe]

The SLU administration reminds me a lot of Bidwell and the Big Red, just could never quite get there due to not knowing what it takes.

[slufanskip]

20 seconds off a mile time at the point in time your body is fully mature and in top condition isnt physically possible.

making free throws and cutting out half of our turnovers a game isnt the same thing and yes i think those two aspects are possible to achieve without the top two players. we probably have at least two more wins if not three on the year right now if we would have cut each games turnovers in half and made 70% of our free throws.

add to that continued development of the more gifted freshmen, i see no reason the billikens cant still have a good season regardless of reinstatements.

It's just as possible as it is to have KC, BC, CR, or PE become reliable go to guys against better competition. In other words, you're right it isn't possible.

I didn't say there aren't things they can do better. I didn't say we couldn't have a good season. (depending on your definition of good) However, we will struggle to find consistency both offensively and defensively against better competition. No expectations of what we need is going to change that. The freshmen are still freshmen, and none of our upper classmen have it in them to become reliable consistent offensive threats. No matter how disapointed we get or how bad we want it to change, it isn't going to be.

[billikenbilly]

20 seconds off a mile time at the point in time your body is fully mature and in top condition isnt physically possible.

making free throws and cutting out half of our turnovers a game isnt the same thing and yes i think those two aspects are possible to achieve without the top two players. we probably have at least two more wins if not three on the year right now if we would have cut each games turnovers in half and made 70% of our free throws.

add to that continued development of the more gifted freshmen, i see no reason the billikens cant still have a good season regardless of reinstatements.

I haven't looked at the stats but it seemed to me that we shot free throws better than Duke. And, turnovers will always be a problem when your 2 primary ballhandlers are freshmen. I would bet 10 of the 14 first half turnovers were committed by freshman. With KM and WR, the turnover situation would have been much different.

[billiken_roy]

but billy the turnovers can be fixed with more and more game and practice and film time with those freshmen.

and skip, i wouldnt be in such a hurry to throw cassity and cory in the same breath with conklin and eckerle.

cassity was really looking good until the ankle injury. and while cory has not been good, he still exhibits outstanding athleticism compared to conklin.

[eastsidejoe]

Does anyone know what Cassity' status it?

[slufanskip]

but billy the turnovers can be fixed with more and more game and practice and film time with those freshmen.

and skip, i wouldnt be in such a hurry to throw cassity and cory in the same breath with conklin and eckerle.

cassity was really looking good until the ankle injury. and while cory has not been good, he still exhibits outstanding athleticism compared to conklin.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself. I wasn't throwing Cassity into the same pot as BC and PE.

My point obviously not well made was ... it's not fair to dramatically raise our expectations of the players we currently have just because we lost our 2 best players. Kyle Cassity can't and won't become a player eaual to or even near KM's level, nor will CR or BC become a player equal to or near WR. The freshmen are still freshmen and none of them have the experience or skill at this point to step up to the level of KM or WR. The loss of those two players is unsurmountable for a midmajor team just as comparable losses to a top 10 team are unsurmountable also.

With those two guys we were a possible top 40 team, hell, maybe top 25. Without them we aren't close, if they don't come back an ending rpi over 125 will be outstanding imo.

[GOSLU68]

but billy the turnovers can be fixed with more and more game and practice and film time with those freshmen.

and skip, i wouldnt be in such a hurry to throw cassity and cory in the same breath with conklin and eckerle.

cassity was really looking good until the ankle injury. and while cory has not been good, he still exhibits outstanding athleticism compared to conklin.

CR doesn't give himself permission to be ready as a starter. Thus the comparison to Sekue Barentine

Conklin is what weight lifting can do for a guy who is a step or a reach slow...stronger but not smoother

recently saw this Evan Pederson 1995 note remember Spoon had just graduated Clagget, etal: "from the high post: Harris said he was tentative in deciding when to crash the boards for an offensive rebound since he wasn't sure who would shoot. McCauley agreed, "Last year, if I would drive, I knew Claggett would be out there behind the 3-point line and I could always pass it off to him, now we have to learn where people will be."

That is the difference between last year and this year we don't know who we can count on. The other difference there doesn't seem to be any student sports writers or broadcasters that are under 45 years old. We are

estranged from our own team because of the distance RM puts between the players and the local media.

[Bay Area Billiken]

The SLU administration reminds me a lot of Bidwell and the Big Red, just could never quite get there due to not knowing what it takes.

Regrettably, there are similarities. Here's hoping SLU doesn't have locksmiths on call.

Watching that Duke game, for the first time since my days at SLU (the 4 years of Ekker, first 3 years of Grawer), I felt helpless like when SLU played Louisville under Ekker, and like when SLU played the big non-conference opponents, Duke and Georgia Tech, under early Grawer. It really reminded me of those Louisville debacles, when Denny Crum would keep the full court press on the whole game (and we were pleading with him to put Marty Pulliam in the game).

SLU keeps pulling the Barney Fife shoot yourself in the foot stuff. It's like history just keeps repeating itself, different fact patterns, but the same end results. I had such high hopes for this season, and have really been disappointed. I sincerely hope our players get reinstated.