RM as a developer of players

[billiken_roy]

Jarr. Obviously, you have personal insight with TL. Do you care to elaborate? TL has been playing 35 to 40 minutes per game and there has to be more than him being partially double-teamed by the person setting the screen. Also, your point appears to be more valid last year with BH and DB being the guys who set the screens. This year, WR, BE and BC have done quite well when left open after setting the screen. If anything, IMO, TL III did not do a very good job looking for, and/or getting the ball to, these guys setting the screens.

so what do you think reed, conklin or eberhardt could have done if tommie had flipped them the ball 20 feet from the basket that husak, luke meyer and danny brown couldnt (especially luke meyer and danny brown) on those out court screens? imo jalejarr illustrated a perfect point.

now i will say that i actually do think in 2-3 years reed and conklin setting those picks for a tommie like player will have the opposing coach shaking knowing they are probably in a no win situation, but not this year yet. that is why this pick and role offense was so much better last year is that lisch and liddell had luke and danny getting the ball 3-4 times a game for easy mid range scores. add 6-8 more points a game to our scores this year and we are over 20 wins and counting right now.

[dlarry]

schemes and philosophy change from coach to coach. all i know is that kevin and tommie each seem to shoot 3-5 shots a game with the shot clock about to expire and they have to create their own opportunity. take those misses away from their stats and their shooting percentage would rise dramatically.

i'd still take the two of them over anyone on the team to play 3 on 3 with or to play a game of horse or around the world.

Id take KL for around the world I bet he would run the table. TLIII for horse I have a feeling he could hit some circus shots.

BUt I think I would want to get WR or BT in my 3 on 3 game. I dont know to many people I would be playing against that could cover guys that tall>

[dlarry]

so what do you think reed, conklin or eberhardt could have done if tommie had flipped them the ball 20 feet from the basket that husak, luke meyer and danny brown couldnt (especially luke meyer and danny brown) on those out court screens? imo jalejarr illustrated a perfect point.

now i will say that i actually do think in 2-3 years reed and conklin setting those picks for a tommie like player will have the opposing coach shaking knowing they are probably in a no win situation, but not this year yet. that is why this pick and role offense was so much better last year is that lisch and liddell had luke and danny getting the ball 3-4 times a game for easy mid range scores. add 6-8 more points a game to our scores this year and we are over 20 wins and counting right now.

thats one thing I hope Conklin develops, or is allowed to shoot next years.

Meyer was great at hitting that 10-15 foot baseline jumper. That seems like an easy thing to do but when its working the offense really opens up

[Schasz]

I think the proof of the pudding in Coach Majerus' developing players should be seen in the next couple of years. I like what I have seen with the very limited amount of what I have been able to watch online from the Frosh players coach recruited. There is some real talent there, and I know several people seem to be high on the recruits being brought in for next year.

Now I do feel sorry that both Kevin and Tommie most likely are not going to see any post season tourney play. That is a darn shame, and frankly is not there fault; however, I cannot accept for one second that it is because Coach Majerus wanted to lose. That makes no sense at all to me.

[moytoy12]

I cannot accept for one second that it is because Coach Majerus wanted to lose. That makes no sense at all to me.

Did he want to lose? No.

Would he accept losses as a result of installing his system when a short term fix could have generated a couple of more wins? Maybe.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I think the proof of the pudding in Coach Majerus' developing players should be seen in the next couple of years. I like what I have seen with the very limited amount of what I have been able to watch online from the Frosh players coach recruited. There is some real talent there, and I know several people seem to be high on the recruits being brought in for next year.

Now I do feel sorry that both Kevin and Tommie most likely are not going to see any post season tourney play. That is a darn shame, and frankly is not there fault; however, I cannot accept for one second that it is because Coach Majerus wanted to lose. That makes no sense at all to me.

Hopefully, today's win will get SLU in either the CBI or CIT. I hope Lisch and Liddell, as well as the freshmen, get to play in a post-season tournament.

It wasn't pretty overall, but SLU, for the first time in 2 weeks, ultimately did what it had to do today.

On to tomorrow and Xavier. Steal that one, and the little Billiken Tsunami builds more momentum off shore from The Boardwalk.

As for Tommie Liddell III, here's hoping he has a good rest of the season. He worked hard on developing that outside shot between his freshman and sophomore years. I still like him as a player and expect he will play professional ball somewhere.

[dlarry]

Hopefully, today's win will get SLU in either the CBI or CIT. I hope Lisch and Liddell, as well as the freshmen, get to play in a post-season tournament.

It wasn't pretty overall, but SLU, for the first time in 2 weeks, ultimately did what it had to do today.

On to tomorrow and Xavier. Steal that one, and the little Billiken Tsunami builds more momentum off shore from The Boardwalk.

As for Tommie Liddell III, here's hoping he has a good rest of the season. He worked hard on developing that outside shot between his freshman and sophomore years. I still like him as a player and expect he will play professional ball somewhere.

The CBI started last year correct?

Is this the first year for the CIT?

Would these tournaments possibley look at playing in a new arena with a nationally known coach as reason to possibly pass up more deserving teams on paper?

[JaleJarr]

Second, I believe your other point about "winning not being the most important goal" is quote taken completely out of context. If you really believe that, then you are saying that RM (this season as well as last season) is not trying to win games. I say BS.

I never said he wasn't trying to win, my point was pretty much answered by Moytoy. Given a choice of taken advantage of the current roster's talent as opposed to running his system, he has chosen to run his system irrespective of wins and losses. What did Mike Singletary say about Vernon Davis and winning?

[Clock_Tower]

I never said he wasn't trying to win, my point was pretty much answered by Moytoy. Given a choice of taken advantage of the current roster's talent as opposed to running his system, he has chosen to run his system irrespective of wins and losses. What did Mike Singletary say about Vernon Davis and winning?

The reason coaches run a proven system is because it has proven to succeed - not fail. Success is judged by wins and not which offense/schemes a coach may choose to employ. RM truly believes in his system and it has proven to be one which results in wins. When you say RM "has chosen to run his system irrespective of wins and loses" I must say that is simply not an accurate statement.

Is RM's offense/schemes conducive to TL and/or KL? Maybe not. But to then say that an offense/schemes which are not the best for 2 of our players is proof that RM places the implementation of his offense over winning is just wrong. RM's very system is designed to win - not to lose or for the sake of saying we run this or that offense/schemes.

Let me ask it this way. If the implementation of RM's offense is not conducive to TL and KL, what offense would be? If your answer is offense ABC, then how would your respond to likely scenario that offense ABC might not conducive to the 6 Freshmen he recruited to play/run offense XYZ and who also are teammates of TL and KL. Would that, by your logic, also not be considered proof that RM is more concerned about the personal stats of TL and KL than about winning and/or the rest of the team. If your answer is that TL and KL are Seniors and our best 2 players, let me remind you that our best player, by far, is KM.

I'm sorry but the 800 lb elephant in the room may actually be the image of Brad Soderberg that TL has refused to let go and the 800 lb. gorilla may be TL's own reflection in the mirror.

[Clock_Tower]

so what do you think reed, conklin or eberhardt could have done if tommie had flipped them the ball 20 feet from the basket that husak, luke meyer and danny brown couldnt (especially luke meyer and danny brown) on those out court screens? imo jalejarr illustrated a perfect point.

now i will say that i actually do think in 2-3 years reed and conklin setting those picks for a tommie like player will have the opposing coach shaking knowing they are probably in a no win situation, but not this year yet. that is why this pick and role offense was so much better last year is that lisch and liddell had luke and danny getting the ball 3-4 times a game for easy mid range scores. add 6-8 more points a game to our scores this year and we are over 20 wins and counting right now.

Roy.

Why would TL "flip them the ball 20 feet from the basket"? The screen may be set 20 feet from the basket but after the screen is set, the screener then rolls toward the basket. The pass to the screener should be caught by him approximately 10 foot from the basket and not 20 foot. Classic pick & roll used to perfection by Utah Jazz - Stockton and Malone for years. On many occasions, RM has made reference to such offense. Yes, this has not seen here in Billikenland for years but that is because we have not been able to recruit a 4 since Bonner and therefore has used both 3 and 4 guard offenses for years.

What makes you think this pick & roll worked better last year? I think it works much better this year. Last year, LM and DB were 6'4" guys who were really guards trying to play forward. They were being guarded by long-armed 6'6" guys or 6'8" true forwards last year. When/if they got the ball 10 feet from the basket, what makes you think it was so easy for them to shoot a 10 footer over a much taller/stronger defender? Also,neither LM nor DB could set anywhere near the screen that WR and BC can set. As to BH, last year he could do very little with the ball no matter what distance he was from the basket or who was guarding him. This year, KM and KC have done a decent job of getting the ball to BC for the 10 footer and WR for the 5 footer. I have not seen as much success from TL and KL getting the ball to BC and WR. Can BC, WR and BT improve their 10 foot jump shot? Of course. Will RM continue to bring in guards who can make this pass? Of course. Will an additional option include BT or the big Aussie stepping out to hit a 20 footer? Most likely, but that is not what is being expected of our bigs this year.

[billiken_roy]

Roy.

Why would TL "flip them the ball 20 feet from the basket"? The screen may be set 20 feet from the basket but after the screen is set, the screener then rolls toward the basket. The pass to the screener should be caught by him approximately 10 foot from the basket and not 20 foot. Classic pick & roll used to perfection by Utah Jazz - Stockton and Malone for years. On many occasions, RM has made reference to such offense. Yes, this has not seen here in Billikenland for years but that is because we have not been able to recruit a 4 since Bonner and therefore has used both 3 and 4 guard offenses for years.

What makes you think this pick & roll worked better last year? I think it works much better this year. Last year, LM and DB were 6'4" guys who were really guards trying to play forward. They were being guarded by long-armed 6'6" guys or 6'8" true forwards last year. When/if they got the ball 10 feet from the basket, what makes you think it was so easy for them to shoot a 10 footer over a much taller/stronger defender? Also,neither LM nor DB could set anywhere near the screen that WR and BC can set. As to BH, last year he could do very little with the ball no matter what distance he was from the basket or who was guarding him. This year, KM and KC have done a decent job of getting the ball to BC for the 10 footer and WR for the 5 footer. I have not seen as much success from TL and KL getting the ball to BC and WR. Can BC, WR and BT improve their 10 foot jump shot? Of course. Will RM continue to bring in guards who can make this pass? Of course. Will an additional option include BT or the big Aussie stepping out to hit a 20 footer? Most likely, but that is not what is being expected of our bigs this year.

we've apparently watched different games the last two seasons.

[Postcard]

we've apparently watched different games the last two seasons.

Roy,

Are you posting from the arena?

[slufanskip]

Jimbo I've always enjoyed your post. There is always something humorous in your post but they always contain a lot of truth. It's unfair however to say Tommie somewhat packed it in due to concern about his professional future. Tommie has always made the game seem effortless. You can't average 6.9 and 6.8 rpg in your first two seasons by not giving max effort. In terms of Tommie's regression, there is a big white elephant or 800 lb gorilla in the room no one is seeing. After coming off a very successful freshmen season, Tommie suffered no sophomore slump. He raised his scoring average from 10.3ppg to 15.4ppg. His rebounding remained steady from 6.9 as a frosh to 6.8 as a soph. He even improved his defensive rebounding total from 138 to 173. Tommie raised his free throw attempts from 3.0 per game to 3.6 per game. Tommie three point shooting went from an anemic 9.5% to 45.4%. In fact he was connecting on 52.6% of his three pointers before injuring his toe in the 26th game of the season vs Dayton. Tommie scored in double figures in 28 of 33 games, reaching that figure in 19 of his last 22 games. He would score between 16-28 points in 14 of his 33 games. In those 14 games he would post averages of 21.9ppg and 6.2 rpg. He shot 57.1% overall and 57.3% in 3ptfg% in those 14 games.

Clearly this guy was headed for a monster junior season, what happened? Rick Majerus happened. The new offensive philosophy de-emphasized Tommie's attacking drives to the basket. Instead Bryce Husak and other limited offensive players were rolling his way with that extra defender who simply doubled Tommie as they had no respect for the person setting the screen. The results were Tommie taking 73 less shots overall and 25 less three point shots. Tommie's scoring dipped from 15.4ppg to 12.3ppg. His rebounding also fell from 6.8rpg to 4.3rpg. Tommie's senior season would see the same trends as he matched last season's fg attempts. His 3pt attempts fell by 10 from the previous season. Go back and review all the statements about Majerus in relation to winning not being the most important goal, and put yourself in the shoes of the players seeing that statement being put it to practice game after game, one can't help but ask the question of are we really committed to winning every time out.

How come KM is not handcuffed and can attack the basket? How come KL is constantly looking to attack, even to the point of dribbling himself into trouble earlier in the year? I also don't think TL is the type player to "pack it in" to save himself from injury. Even early in his career TL did not attack the basket as much as he could have, and it's gotten worse. He almost plays like he's trying to be a pg against a zone defense, looking to direct the offense more without facilitating anything as much as he should or we need him to.

[slufanskip]

How come KM is not handcuffed and can attack the basket? How come KL is constantly looking to attack, even to the point of dribbling himself into trouble earlier in the year? I also don't think TL is the type player to "pack it in" to save himself from injury. Even early in his career TL did not attack the basket as much as he could have, and it's gotten worse. He almost plays like he's trying to be a pg against a zone defense, looking to direct the offense more without facilitating anything as much as he should or we need him to.

I decided to look up some stats.

Starting from the game KM got hurt and came back and began scoring much more.

After the ROK (Return of Kwamain)

Tommie - Shots per game - 7.9

Assists per game - 3.72

Kwamain- Shots per game - 10.09

Assists per game - 3.09

Before the ROK

Tommie - Shots per game - 11.7

Assists per game - 2.0

Kwamain - Shots per game - 7.58

Assists per game - 4.15

After the ROK

Tommie Shots per game minus 3.8

Assists per game plus 1.09

Kwamain shots per game plus 2.58

assists per game minus 1.06

My question is as KM has taken over more of a scoring role, TL has clearly taken alot less shots and has become more of a facilitator of the offense almost doubling his assists per game. Is this due to something they've been coached to do? or has the transition occurred more naturally, ie ... Tommie see's his role differently and is doing the things he thinks will help the team more?

[Clock_Tower]

I decided to look up some stats.

Starting from the game KM got hurt and came back and began scoring much more.

After the ROK (Return of Kwamain)

Tommie - Shots per game - 7.9

Assists per game - 3.72

Kwamain- Shots per game - 10.09

Assists per game - 3.09

Before the ROK

Tommie - Shots per game - 11.7

Assists per game - 2.0

Kwamain - Shots per game - 7.58

Assists per game - 4.15

After the ROK

Tommie Shots per game minus 3.8

Assists per game plus 1.09

Kwamain shots per game plus 2.58

assists per game minus 1.06

My question is as KM has taken over more of a scoring role, TL has clearly taken alot less shots and has become more of a facilitator of the offense almost doubling his assists per game. Is this due to something they've been coached to do? or has the transition occurred more naturally, ie ... Tommie see's his role differently and is doing the things he thinks will help the team more?

Drawing conclusions from a limited amount of playing time, or even a single play, can be extremely misleading. With that disclaimer, in my mind, the last image on the Court I will have of TL will be of TL, with limited left and I'm not certain if this was in regulation time or overtime, and TL receives the ball at the right side Court/on 3 point line, thinks about shooting it, makes a pump fake like he is shooting it, but then passes to KM only 10 feet away, KM receives the ball in the right corner, KM also makes a pump fake but then KM launches the 3 - and hits it. Of all nights, this was Senior night, and TL gave the ball to our Freshman who not only took the shoot instead of the Senior but who made the shot.

As to KL, he definitely did not stop shooting, by several accounts he was injured but still gave it his all, and KL's 3 pointer was about as close to going in as possible -- it rimmed out, then appeared to be going in, then rimmed out a second time. Tough break but KL competed till the end. Nothing more you can ask a player than that.

[dlarry]

I think TLIII lack of shooting down the stretch was a combination of RM asking him to do more play making, and Liddel taking a liking to playing a point forward position.

Im sure he had the green light to take open shots but I think in his mind he could do more by dishing off this gave him an oppurtunity to drive and create and he didnt have to settle for 12 foot jumpers.

Id also like to see if TLIII Offensive rebounds increased when he was taking less shots. I may be way off here but it seems to me that when he would drive in dish he would be in a better position for rebounds. I dont know if the stats back this up, and maybe its just me making excuses for TL and wanting to see something that wasnt actually there.

[Clock_Tower]

we've apparently watched different games the last two seasons.

Maybe we did watch different games. In the meantime, I don't understand why you ask:

Why would TL "flip them (WR, BE and BC) the ball 20 feet from the basket"?

then in the same post state the offense worked better last year:

that is why this pick and role offense was so much better last year

and then in the same post state:

that lisch and liddell had luke and danny getting the ball

3-4 times a game for easy mid range scores.

Why would this year's guys (WR, BE and BC) be shooting "20 footers" and last year's guys (DB and LM) be shooting "easy mid range scores." Shouldn't our guys, in both years, be shooting "mid-range" shots? In my book, a 20 footer is not an easy mid-range score. Also, I readily admit that LM was really good at making these 10 footers but our guys did not even get the ball enough this year, IMO, to consider shooting the 10 footer. I don't recall, WR, BE and BC getting the ball but missing 10 footers each time down the Court.

If TL doesn't give the ball to WR, BE and BC after they set the screen, then maybe TL is to blame for remaining double-teamed. Remember, Jarr's premise (not mine) is that this horrible offense of RM did nothing but bring out another guy to double-team TL and that is the reason why TL could not drive/attack the basket and why his Jr. and Sr year stats are what they are. To that, I say that if TL had the ball and remained double-teamed and thereby could not drive to the basket, then that would have to mean that WR, BE and BC were left open. Yes, they may be less mobile than DB and LM but they have other/different skills including size and the ability to get a shot off despite the other team's big coming over for helpside defense. 6'4" guards aren't the only ones capable of making mid-range shots. Further, WR, BE and BC have a greater chance of going all the way to the basket for a dunk or short 5 footer.

[billiken_roy]

Maybe we did watch different games. In the meantime, I don't understand why you ask:

Why would TL "flip them (WR, BE and BC) the ball 20 feet from the basket"?

then in the same post state the offense worked better last year:

that is why this pick and role offense was so much better last year

and then in the same post state:

that lisch and liddell had luke and danny getting the ball

3-4 times a game for easy mid range scores.

Why would this year's guys (WR, BE and BC) be shooting "20 footers" and last year's guys (DB and LM) be shooting "easy mid range scores." Shouldn't our guys, in both years, be shooting "mid-range" shots? In my book, a 20 footer is not an easy mid-range score. Also, I readily admit that LM was really good at making these 10 footers but our guys did not even get the ball enough this year, IMO, to consider shooting the 10 footer. I don't recall, WR, BE and BC getting the ball but missing 10 footers each time down the Court.

If TL doesn't give the ball to WR, BE and BC after they set the screen, then maybe TL is to blame for remaining double-teamed. Remember, Jarr's premise (not mine) is that this horrible offense of RM did nothing but bring out another guy to double-team TL and that is the reason why TL could not drive/attack the basket and why his Jr. and Sr year stats are what they are. To that, I say that if TL had the ball and remained double-teamed and thereby could not drive to the basket, then that would have to mean that WR, BE and BC were left open. Yes, they may be less mobile than DB and LM but they have other/different skills including size and the ability to get a shot off despite the other team's big coming over for helpside defense. 6'4" guards aren't the only ones capable of making mid-range shots. Further, WR, BE and BC have a greater chance of going all the way to the basket for a dunk or short 5 footer.

the driver is 20 feet way when the screen is set.

luke and danny would get the quick pass and drive to the mid range shot. or go all the way in if they could. reed and conklin really cant consistently do that at this point yet. now if the defender that tries to step out to stop lisch/liddell from penetrating across the lane doesnt get back when the rightful defender recovers, yet, reed and conklin got easy layups/dunks. but brown and luke got those as well.

no way reed and conklin have the ball skills to take it to the basket themselves off the dribble at this point compared to what brown and luke could do last year. i think both conklin and reed will far exceed brown and meyer by career end, but they arent those outcourt players yet.

and most of the dunks/layups that reed and conklin did get this year were actually from them being weakside and when kevin and or tommie would penetrate off the screen they got and were received by weakside defenders coming off reed or conklin kevin or tommie would give them the ball. but they rarely scored off of a pick and roll that they were the pickers.

[slufanskip]

Drawing conclusions from a limited amount of playing time, or even a single play, can be extremely misleading. With that disclaimer, in my mind, the last image on the Court I will have of TL will be of TL, with limited left and I'm not certain if this was in regulation time or overtime, and TL receives the ball at the right side Court/on 3 point line, thinks about shooting it, makes a pump fake like he is shooting it, but then passes to KM only 10 feet away, KM receives the ball in the right corner, KM also makes a pump fake but then KM launches the 3 - and hits it. Of all nights, this was Senior night, and TL gave the ball to our Freshman who not only took the shoot instead of the Senior but who made the shot.

As to KL, he definitely did not stop shooting, by several accounts he was injured but still gave it his all, and KL's 3 pointer was about as close to going in as possible -- it rimmed out, then appeared to be going in, then rimmed out a second time. Tough break but KL competed till the end. Nothing more you can ask a player than that.

I don't think 11 games is a small sample. To add to the stats Tommie has averaged about 2 - 2 1/2 assists per game throughout his career. This 11 game run has him increasing that close to 2 assists a game.

Before the change we had 2 close home wins over weak UMASS and GW teams. We also had a home loss against Richmond and 2 blow out losses on the road against Temple and X. Before we played 3 home and 2 away and went 2-3. After we played 11 games 6 on the road and 5 at home and went 6-5. We had a couple of bad games with La Salle and the Bonnies, but we also beat Richmond and clobbered Fordham on the road. As you know road wins have been rare for any SLU team. Along with that we lost to RI, Dayton, and The Dukes by a total of 11 pts on the road. At home we beat Dayton, St. Joe's and the Dukes. My point is we have clearly played better the last 11 games as compared to the 1st 5. The better play came with KM taking over more of the scoring responsibilities and Tommie becoming much more of a playmaker. Was it more due to one or the other or most likely both. After looking more closely it appears Tommie hasn't neccessarily played worse which is what it looks like at first glance. The end result was we were a better team and Tommie was the best playmaker during that run. Maybe Tommie was just doing what it took for the team to win regardless of the effect on his personal scoring stats.

[GOSLU68]

I don't think 11 games is a small sample. To add to the stats Tommie has averaged about 2 - 2 1/2 assists per game throughout his career. This 11 game run has him increasing that close to 2 assists a game.

Before the change we had 2 close home wins over weak UMASS and GW teams. We also had a home loss against Richmond and 2 blow out losses on the road against Temple and X. Before we played 3 home and 2 away and went 2-3. After we played 11 games 6 on the road and 5 at home and went 6-5. We had a couple of bad games with La Salle and the Bonnies, but we also beat Richmond and clobbered Fordham on the road. As you know road wins have been rare for any SLU team. Along with that we lost to RI, Dayton, and The Dukes by a total of 11 pts on the road. At home we beat Dayton, St. Joe's and the Dukes. My point is we have clearly played better the last 11 games as compared to the 1st 5. The better play came with KM taking over more of the scoring responsibilities and Tommie becoming much more of a playmaker. Was it more due to one or the other or most likely both. After looking more closely it appears Tommie hasn't neccessarily played worse which is what it looks like at first glance. The end result was we were a better team and Tommie was the best playmaker during that run. Maybe Tommie was just doing what it took for the team to win regardless of the effect on his personal scoring stats.

I'd sure like to watch some practices next year; 1) I'd like to know if everyone has the green light or if only certain people are allowed to score. To me

we had too many players in the past and this year who give the ball up to "a better percentage shooter". KC and TLIII come to mind most often. I think

we have to have a mind set that if a guy is open he takes the shot unless we have no rebounders or he thinks he is going to get his shot blocked. To me

in the last 7-8 games TLIII and KC would only shoot if they were wide open clear-how often does that happen unless the other team is making a mistake?

[Clock_Tower]

the driver is 20 feet way when the screen is set.

luke and danny would get the quick pass and drive to the mid range shot. or go all the way in if they could. reed and conklin really cant consistently do that at this point yet. now if the defender that tries to step out to stop lisch/liddell from penetrating across the lane doesnt get back when the rightful defender recovers, yet, reed and conklin got easy layups/dunks. but brown and luke got those as well.

no way reed and conklin have the ball skills to take it to the basket themselves off the dribble at this point compared to what brown and luke could do last year. i think both conklin and reed will far exceed brown and meyer by career end, but they arent those outcourt players yet.

and most of the dunks/layups that reed and conklin did get this year were actually from them being weakside and when kevin and or tommie would penetrate off the screen they got and were received by weakside defenders coming off reed or conklin kevin or tommie would give them the ball. but they rarely scored off of a pick and roll that they were the pickers.

Roy. Believe we are talking about two (2) separate issues. You are correct that the driver (TL) is 20 feet away when the screen is set. After a big such as BC sets the screen, also 20 feet away, then BC rolls to the basket. If BC takes 2 to 3 steps and catches the ball from TL, then he'd be 12 feet or so from the basket. Right? Does BC have the ability to go the last 12 feet to the hoop? Maybe not consistently if he is well guarded. But then I'd say that BC is taller, bigger and stronger than LM and therefore better able to receive the pass. As mentioned, though, the offense did not break-down with our bigs receiving the ball 12 feet from the basket but not able to shoot it or take to the hole. In fact, they often did even receive the ball - which is my point. Why did TL and KL not try to get them the ball more. The bigs could then give it back if they were stuck at the 12 foot and not able to cotinue/convert. Also, my point is that simply by making this pass, then Jarr's concern about TL being double teamed would be resolved correct?

Lest anyone forget, when TL and KL had good games under Brad, we usually won but not always. When TL and KL had average to poor games, we lost every time. We were totally one (1) demensional. This year, we won some good games even when TL and/or KL were not producing points like they had done in the past. This year, we had decent scoring inside from BC (especially at the start of the year) and frequently but not always by BE and WR towards the end of the year. Several games, KL hit quite a few FTs at the end of the game to get his stats up the levels we had come to expect.