cheeseman Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 TL has been under utilized his entire career at SLU. I might even blame KL for slowing down his progress. BC is the truth WR is the truth KM will be twice the player KL is when this is all said and done. I like SLU but when we have to settle with KL as our go to guy, were going to fail. Thats just the player he is. I am just as confused as everybody else about KL's progress this year but to say his average is silly - he is a top ten school career scorer. If that make him average then was does that tell you about how bad all the other players we have had over the years? - Kl is not average - he might be playing average this year but overall his career will be above average when he graduates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Band Man Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I am just as confused as everybody else about KL's progress this year but to say his average is silly - he is a top ten school career scorer. If that make him average then was does that tell you about how bad all the other players we have had over the years? - Kl is not average - he might be playing average this year but overall his career will be above average when he graduates. There might be a possibility, in this case, that all KL's nagging injuries over the years are finally catching up with him. We can all admit that KL didn't succeed in the past because of athleticism. In terms of mid to high level D-1 basketball players, KL was never considered a great athlete. In fact, if you want to say that his athleticism has been "average" that would be a fair assessment. His grit, determination, and most importantly, his shooting ability has allowed him to succeed despite these athletic shortcomings. By shooting the ball well, it would force defenders to play him tight, so that when he decided to put the ball on the floor and penetrate, he didn't necessarily need a great deal of quickness and athleticism to get a step on the guy guarding him. Now, when he's shooting poorly, guys are sagging off on him just the slightest bit and it really cuts off his ability to effectively penetrate. Add onto that the fact that he seems like to have lost a step (or so it seems IMO); this further restricts what he can do on the court on both ends of the floor. I know it was mentioned in jest earlier, but the outcome of the Kent St. game might have been different had TL been guarding AL Fisher (although we would have had other match up problems at that point but I'm just considering this in theory). Kevin had just enough athleticism to keep up with quicker guys because of a high level of skill and great fundamentals. If he really has lost a step because of injuries, then he has no chance in keeping up with guys like Fisher who are great athletes. The fact of the matter is, however, that KL was average in terms of athleticism to begin with, so if his body is slowing him down even just a little bit, he won't be able to play anywhere near his ability and in fact he might even be considered average at that point. I really hope I'm wrong because if he were playing defense like he did last year and if he were able to contribute on the offensive end more consistently this team would be a whole lot more dangerous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOSLU68 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 KL has been mauled in games. If we have some subs who could take minutes from him to keep him fresh when the game is on the line then RM would spell him more often. The kid is still all heart and giving it up for us every night. Any team that doesn't guard him is going to be burned and then he will be back to his old self even if he is injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 There might be a possibility, in this case, that all KL's nagging injuries over the years are finally catching up with him. We can all admit that KL didn't succeed in the past because of athleticism. In terms of mid to high level D-1 basketball players, KL was never considered a great athlete. In fact, if you want to say that his athleticism has been "average" that would be a fair assessment. His grit, determination, and most importantly, his shooting ability has allowed him to succeed despite these athletic shortcomings. By shooting the ball well, it would force defenders to play him tight, so that when he decided to put the ball on the floor and penetrate, he didn't necessarily need a great deal of quickness and athleticism to get a step on the guy guarding him. Now, when he's shooting poorly, guys are sagging off on him just the slightest bit and it really cuts off his ability to effectively penetrate. Add onto that the fact that he seems like to have lost a step (or so it seems IMO); this further restricts what he can do on the court on both ends of the floor. I know it was mentioned in jest earlier, but the outcome of the Kent St. game might have been different had TL been guarding AL Fisher (although we would have had other match up problems at that point but I'm just considering this in theory). Kevin had just enough athleticism to keep up with quicker guys because of a high level of skill and great fundamentals. If he really has lost a step because of injuries, then he has no chance in keeping up with guys like Fisher who are great athletes. The fact of the matter is, however, that KL was average in terms of athleticism to begin with, so if his body is slowing him down even just a little bit, he won't be able to play anywhere near his ability and in fact he might even be considered average at that point. I really hope I'm wrong because if he were playing defense like he did last year and if he were able to contribute on the offensive end more consistently this team would be a whole lot more dangerous! Fair point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I met him numerous times and liked him alot. There s a huge difference between he'd have been successful with better support and he was on the verge of hitting it big. Players left due to grades Edwin, injuries McClain, and Nick Kern was never coming regardless of the coach. The Cal kid Hollins didn't turn out to b the 2nd coming either. Personally, I think Romar would have done well eventually. He wouldn't have done as well as RM will and he wasn't on the verge of hitting it big. Those Sweet 16 years were back-to-back 29-win seasons. Romar has won big, and in consecutive years. I have never met a SLU fan who doesn't consider 29 wins "winning big." I also can't imagine a SLU fan who wouldn't have wanted Hollins. Are you serious? A 7-footer who started on a UCLA team that went to the NCAA finals? A third-year NBA player? I've never heard anyone use the term "second coming" to describe him (and second coming of whom? Ed McCauley?), but I would have been happy to have him. You're also forgetting that the two freshmen from 2001-02 left: Pulley, who only stayed for Romar and whose grades were going to be an issue, and Seyfert, who claimed homesickness. McClain's back issues and consecutive medical redshirt seasons were no one's fault. Edwin may have been ineligible one semester but would have been worth keeping, and he would have stayed for Romar. You also say "He wouldn't have done as well as RM" about Romar. Really? He went 19-14 and got us in the tournament his first year, went 17-14 his second year, and 15-16 his third year. Majerus went 16-15 in his first year and is 10-6 now against a bad schedule, and both of those records include a win against a D-II team. So I can only presume that your statement is based on how you feel Majerus will do, because he certainly hasn't done it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmbilliken Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 KL is a good player. He's just in a shooting slump. He's had them in the past as most players do. Problem is he's our only shooter(unless PE has suddenly found it). When he starts hitting again(and he will) we'll all forget the December/January shooting slump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drkelsey55 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 KL is a good player. He's just in a shooting slump. He's had them in the past as most players do. Problem is he's our only shooter(unless PE has suddenly found it). When he starts hitting again(and he will) we'll all forget the December/January shooting slump.Kevin's shooting doesn't bother me as much as his inability to execute the pick and roll play from the side of the court, as he dribbles toward center court he gets picked up in a double team as the defenders allow the screener to break free to the bass line open for a ten to 12 foot jump shot. Problem is Kevin is to busy being trapped to get the ball to the open person. Other teams have picked up on this and just ignore the screener and drive Kevin back out to center court. Watch for this at the GW game and you will see what I mean. This play is a big part of the offense that RM is trying to pu in. If you execute it well you have a tripple threat that will open up all kinds of scoring opportunities. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Those Sweet 16 years were back-to-back 29-win seasons. Romar has won big, and in consecutive years. I have never met a SLU fan who doesn't consider 29 wins "winning big." I also can't imagine a SLU fan who wouldn't have wanted Hollins. Are you serious? A 7-footer who started on a UCLA team that went to the NCAA finals? A third-year NBA player? I've never heard anyone use the term "second coming" to describe him (and second coming of whom? Ed McCauley?), but I would have been happy to have him. You're also forgetting that the two freshmen from 2001-02 left: Pulley, who only stayed for Romar and whose grades were going to be an issue, and Seyfert, who claimed homesickness. McClain's back issues and consecutive medical redshirt seasons were no one's fault. Edwin may have been ineligible one semester but would have been worth keeping, and he would have stayed for Romar. You also say "He wouldn't have done as well as RM" about Romar. Really? He went 19-14 and got us in the tournament his first year, went 17-14 his second year, and 15-16 his third year. Majerus went 16-15 in his first year and is 10-6 now against a bad schedule, and both of those records include a win against a D-II team. So I can only presume that your statement is based on how you feel Majerus will do, because he certainly hasn't done it yet. Your idea of winning big and mine are obviously just different. I didn't say I didn't want Hollins. You seem to have alot of inside info on what players would have or wouldn't have done. Lets drop it, we disagree on Romar. I like him, I always did, and this is turning into a subject that makes it appear I'm bashing him. I'm not, I just don't think he's done what I would call "winning big" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Your idea of winning big and mine are obviously just different. I didn't say I didn't want Hollins. You seem to have alot of inside info on what players would have or wouldn't have done. Lets drop it, we disagree on Romar. I like him, I always did, and this is turning into a subject that makes it appear I'm bashing him. I'm not, I just don't think he's done what I would call "winning big" Okay, so your definition of "Winning Big" is 30 wins or 3 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances. It's settled. There are very few coaches that "Win Big" if that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Okay, so your definition of "Winning Big" is 30 wins or 3 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances. It's settled. There are very few coaches that "Win Big" if that's the case. I'm very disapointed that you don't agree with me on what constitutes winning big. There are very few coaches that win big imo. Had Romar followed up those 2 good years, I'd feel differently, he didn't. Can I get an email, in the future I'd like to run my opinions by you to insure I get it right. I mean you do have that inside info on what players would or wouldn't have done had he stayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I'm very disapointed that you don't agree with me on what constitutes winning big. There are very few coaches that win big imo. Had Romar followed up those 2 good years, I'd feel differently, he didn't. Can I get an email, in the future I'd like to run my opinions by you to insure I get it right. I mean you do have that inside info on what players would or wouldn't have done had he stayed. I don't appreciate the sarcasm when I choose to disagree with you on something and feel I am fairly arguing my point. Check your PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Kevin's shooting doesn't bother me as much as his inability to execute the pick and roll play from the side of the court, as he dribbles toward center court he gets picked up in a double team as the defenders allow the screener to break free to the bass line open for a ten to 12 foot jump shot. Problem is Kevin is to busy being trapped to get the ball to the open person. Other teams have picked up on this and just ignore the screener and drive Kevin back out to center court. Watch for this at the GW game and you will see what I mean. This play is a big part of the offense that RM is trying to pu in. If you execute it well you have a tripple threat that will open up all kinds of scoring opportunities. I have been noticing this as well for the last month. Kevin's shooting woes don't bother me because he is a good shooter so he will find his shot at some point. What really bothers and concerns me is his ability to move the ball within the offensive system. I suspect that he has never had a to rely upon passing off screens and picks becuase he has always been the focal point of the offensive systems he played in. However, his passing issues are really maginified in Rick's system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I have been noticing this as well for the last month. Kevin's shooting woes don't bother me because he is a good shooter so he will find his shot at some point. What really bothers and concerns me is his ability to move the ball within the offensive system. I suspect that he has never had a to rely upon passing off screens and picks becuase he has always been the focal point of the offensive systems he played in. However, his passing issues are really maginified in Rick's system. He never was an outstanding passer - so nobody should be surprised by that now. He is adequate but not the guy you want penetrating and passing. Although he will end his career at SLU as a very good player - he will be a top ten career scorer and that alone makes him a star at SLU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 He never was an outstanding passer - so nobody should be surprised by that now. He is adequate but not the guy you want penetrating and passing. Although he will end his career at SLU as a very good player - he will be a top ten career scorer and that alone makes him a star at SLU. kevin is actually going to finish his billiken career with a likely asst to turnover ratio of about 1.4% which is not bad for an off guard. he will also likely end up 5th in scoring, 9th in assists (not bad for a now bad passer with no court vision), 8th in steals, 5th in free throw percentage, 2nd in made three pointers. all of this apparently done in garbage time according to our esteemed billikens.com poster, "NextYearBill". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 kevin is actually going to finish his billiken career with a likely asst to turnover ratio of about 1.4% which is not bad for an off guard. he will also likely end up 5th in scoring, 9th in assists (not bad for a now bad passer with no court vision), 8th in steals, 5th in free throw percentage, 2nd in made three pointers. all of this apparently done in garbage time according to our esteemed billikens.com poster, "NextYearBill". Those milestones mean nothing when you have nothing to show for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Those milestones mean nothing when you have nothing to show for them. right on brother. there was absolutely no talent involved in attaining those milestones. what a chump that k. lisch is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 kevin is actually going to finish his billiken career with a likely asst to turnover ratio of about 1.4% which is not bad for an off guard. he will also likely end up 5th in scoring, 9th in assists (not bad for a now bad passer with no court vision), 8th in steals, 5th in free throw percentage, 2nd in made three pointers. all of this apparently done in garbage time according to our esteemed billikens.com poster, "NextYearBill". Kevin has been a great Billiken. However, his career statistics are somewhat inflated by the fact that he has had the luxury of starting almost his entire 4 years, which included a few very lean years for the program. If you look at the other modern era players in the top 10, they also benefited from being four-year starters. I think Kevin would have been better served in the long-run if there had been some guards like Marque Perry, Justin Love, Erwin Claggett, or H. Waldman for him to play behind for a year or two even if it would have hurt his career statistics. I also believe legitimate arguments can be made that Kevin is one of the greatest Billikens of all-time or that he is one of the most overrated Billikens of all-time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextYearBill Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 right on brother. there was absolutely no talent involved in attaining those milestones. what a chump that k. lisch is. There is no doubt it takes some degree of talent to put up career numbers like that. I'm just saying he does not possess these superman qualities a majority of Billiken fans attribute to him. We saw him freshmen year and expected great things of him that never came. My contention is that KL is highly overrated. Nobody will look back on these 4 years with anything to say but, "man we sure were close against Xavier that one time..." -or- "Remember that Rhode Island game..." He gives max effort for us, but his ambition far exceeds his talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOSLU68 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Kevin has been a great Billiken. However, his career statistics are somewhat inflated by the fact that he has had the luxury of starting almost his entire 4 years, which included a few very lean years for the program. If you look at the other modern era players in the top 10, they also benefited from being four-year starters. I think Kevin would have been better served in the long-run if there had been some guards like Marque Perry, Justin Love, Erwin Claggett, or H. Waldman for him to play behind for a year or two even if it would have hurt his career statistics. I also believe legitimate arguments can be made that Kevin is one of the greatest Billikens of all-time or that he is one of the most overrated Billikens of all-time. Obviously, having IV at center two years ago took up some offense for the Bills; last year we had to depend on TL and KL too much and in th A10 the coaches are going to know how to diminish the skills of both TL and KL. I think KL would be a better player if we had more offense at the 1, 4, and 5 positions. His shot will start falling again. Both TL and KL can make passes and recognize but sometimes they don't get recognition from the receivers. We need players on the court who are looking for the ball not relaxing on the opposite side of the court or nearby and those other players need to be willing to get to TL and KL if they are trapped. One reason we all like KC is imprtant to the motion offense he reminds us of Leuchtefeld who played for Spoon with perpetual motion that drags players away from the ball and lets a good player pop back into the action for the quick pass. Now if we could just get KC to shoot, as well it would greatly help KL and TL. Over four years or 3.5 as KL did not play all that much for BS his first semester, he has been a hard nosed player. Whether he scored or not you never got the impression he was taking the night off. I sure wish he had not taken that bad fall preseason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Okay, so your definition of "Winning Big" is 30 wins or 3 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances. It's settled. There are very few coaches that "Win Big" if that's the case. This is why I responded with sarcasm, as I never said that. You don't get to dish out the sarcasm and not get a bit in return. Also, it was really pretty light hearted sarcasm, it certainly wasn't mean. Can hug now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 There is no doubt it takes some degree of talent to put up career numbers like that. I'm just saying he does not possess these superman qualities a majority of Billiken fans attribute to him. We saw him freshmen year and expected great things of him that never came. My contention is that KL is highly overrated. Nobody will look back on these 4 years with anything to say but, "man we sure were close against Xavier that one time..." -or- "Remember that Rhode Island game..." He gives max effort for us, but his ambition far exceeds his talent. That was definitely your most articulate and well-reasoned explanation to-date; of course, it will likely be viewed as heresy on this board. My view is that Kevin would be a great addition to just about any team in the country, and I would take him any day at SLU; however, he is best suited as something like the 4th through 7th best option on team, not the 1st or 2nd option that he has been expected to be at SLU. In fact, I think he was at his best when he played the roll of the 3rd option to Tommie and Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfootes Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Okay, so your definition of "Winning Big" is 30 wins or 3 consecutive Sweet 16 appearances. It's settled. There are very few coaches that "Win Big" if that's the case. Romar had a couple of excellent years in a row at Washington. I think 95% of colleges would be happy with back-to-back sweet 16 appearances. I also think most schools would be thrilled with being a #1 seed. However, I think you could make a good case that a #1 seed that doesn't get past the Sweet 16 is kind of a flop. It's a great problem to have, but a huge disappointment nontheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Kevin has been a great Billiken. However, his career statistics are somewhat inflated by the fact that he has had the luxury of starting almost his entire 4 years, which included a few very lean years for the program. If you look at the other modern era players in the top 10, they also benefited from being four-year starters. I think Kevin would have been better served in the long-run if there had been some guards like Marque Perry, Justin Love, Erwin Claggett, or H. Waldman for him to play behind for a year or two even if it would have hurt his career statistics. I also believe legitimate arguments can be made that Kevin is one of the greatest Billikens of all-time or that he is one of the most overrated Billikens of all-time. two of your own examples, claggett and perry started all four years as well. so did bonner, douglas, gray. you know what they all have in common with lisch and liddell? the answer isnt inflated statistics, it is that they are all billiken hall of famers. david, your last year distaste for lisch is very disappointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 david, your last year distaste for lisch is very disappointing. Roy, I knew you would get defensive. I have absolutely no distaste for Kevin. I think he has been a great Billiken and would love to have him for another four years. I root for him to succeed. I just expected a lot more of him and am disappointed in certain elements of his play this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 That was definitely your most articulate and well-reasoned explanation to-date; of course, it will likely be viewed as heresy on this board. My view is that Kevin would be a great addition to just about any team in the country, and I would take him any day at SLU; however, he is best suited as something like the 4th through 7th best option on team, not the 1st or 2nd option that he has been expected to be at SLU. In fact, I think he was at his best when he played the roll of the 3rd option to Tommie and Ian. I think you are off with your 4th through 7th option. I think Kevin plays better off the ball, he's never really had a pg and has to spend much of his career being one himself and imo has done a decent job. Kevin is going to avg (and I'm guessing) about 14ppg for his career, he's easily able to be a 1st or 2nd scoring option, he'd just be better suited if he didn't have to begin with the ball in his hands. His shot is off right now, it'll come around and we will be a better team when it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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