moytoy12 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 No, when Cassity would sub in for the pf, Liddell would slide over to pf as he's done every other year when the Billikens want to play quicker. You wouldnt lose any size because Liddell is only an inch shorter that Eberhart, if that, and Cassity only an inch shorter than Liddell. I thought you would put that together. LOL. good one v. How often has TL played the 4? Also, size isn't just height. You realize that, right? Cassity and Liddell aren't going to be playing power forward unless we are forced to by injuries or fouls. They might be given the moniker of "4" if we run a four guard set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Hoops Insider Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 LOL. good one v. How often has TL played the 4? Also, size isn't just height. You realize that, right? Cassity and Liddell aren't going to be playing power forward unless we are forced to by injuries or fouls. They might be given the moniker of "4" if we run a four guard set. Liddell was playing the 4 full time his freshman year for quite a while while Polk Drejaj and Lisch/DB manned the other starting spots and he has played it quite often the last couple of years. I'm not sure what team you were watching. I dont think Cassity will be playing the 4 ever. I just said he could sub for anybody and starter and the team wouldnt lose any height. I said size, but meant height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 LOL. good one v. How often has TL played the 4? Also, size isn't just height. You realize that, right? Cassity and Liddell aren't going to be playing power forward unless we are forced to by injuries or fouls. They might be given the moniker of "4" if we run a four guard set. actually moytoy, i would guess tommie will be forced to play pf a couple of times per game maybe 4-5 minutes total. rickma played four guards a number of times last wednesday. liddell has played some pf every year he has been at slu thus far. not his primary spot, but he has played and will likely play more this season even though we have the bodies that he wouldnt have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 actually moytoy, i would guess tommie will be forced to play pf a couple of times per game maybe 4-5 minutes total. rickma played four guards a number of times last wednesday. liddell has played some pf every year he has been at slu thus far. not his primary spot, but he has played and will likely play more this season even though we have the bodies that he wouldnt have to. i certainly hope not. If Tommie's putting minutes in at the 4, that doesn't bode well for the performance of BE and BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 actually moytoy, i would guess tommie will be forced to play pf a couple of times per game maybe 4-5 minutes total. rickma played four guards a number of times last wednesday. liddell has played some pf every year he has been at slu thus far. not his primary spot, but he has played and will likely play more this season even though we have the bodies that he wouldnt have to. right, i understand playing the 4 in a four guard offense and suggested that above. I could very well be wrong on the amount of 4 TL played in the past, but I don't remember it much. I don't get to watch many games, only get the online radio feed, so it's kind of hard to know how many minutes he got at the four in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Liddell was playing the 4 full time his freshman year for quite a while while Polk Drejaj and Lisch/DB manned the other starting spots and he has played it quite often the last couple of years. I'm not sure what team you were watching. I dont think Cassity will be playing the 4 ever. I just said he could sub for anybody and starter and the team wouldnt lose any height. I said size, but meant height. Right, a 4 guard offense like i mentioned above. TL wasn't playing a traditional "4" role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 i certainly hope not. If Tommie's putting minutes in at the 4, that doesn't bode well for the performance of BE and BC. sshoe, i am by no means downplayng eberhardt or conklin. i think they will be very good this year. i am forseeing the best year of power forward for the billikens since the baniak/tatum days. however, i think that rickma will look for opportunities to present matchup problems and use tommie as a "4" in certain situations for short spurts to try to force the opposing coach to react to tommies quickness and ball skills. look at it this way. what if the opposing team had barry eberhardt as their power forward. if we use our barry eberhardt to guard him that is a wash. even conklin isnt going to dominate a barry eberhardt. yet a tommie going against barry would be a terrible mismatch for the opposition. they would be forced to swich a wing off on tommie and try to guard one of our wings with their barry. or switch defenses or sub a different player. meanwhile about the time the coach adjusts, rickma brings our barry or conklin back in and took a 6 point advantage for that 3 or 4 minute span. one thing i will defend rickma on is game moves. rickma is no dummy and will coach on the fly with anyone. the truth is that now that he has his own players that he wants to use, it will become even more apparent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 sshoe, i am by no means downplayng eberhardt or conklin. i think they will be very good this year. i am forseeing the best year of power forward for the billikens since the baniak/tatum days. however, i think that rickma will look for opportunities to present matchup problems and use tommie as a "4" in certain situations for short spurts to try to force the opposing coach to react to tommies quickness and ball skills. look at it this way. what if the opposing team had barry eberhardt as their power forward. if we use our barry eberhardt to guard him that is a wash. even conklin isnt going to dominate a barry eberhardt. yet a tommie going against barry would be a terrible mismatch for the opposition. they would be forced to swich a wing off on tommie and try to guard one of our wings with their barry. or switch defenses or sub a different player. meanwhile about the time the coach adjusts, rickma brings our barry or conklin back in and took a 6 point advantage for that 3 or 4 minute span. one thing i will defend rickma on is game moves. rickma is no dummy and will coach on the fly with anyone. the truth is that now that he has his own players that he wants to use, it will become even more apparent. I see what your saying, and in certain situations, that may work. But while Tommie could cause a matchup issue for an opposing 4 on the offensive end, the vice versa is true and an opposing 4 would likely create a matchup issue for Tommie on the defensive end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I see what your saying, and in certain situations, that may work. But while Tommie could cause a matchup issue for an opposing 4 on the offensive end, the vice versa is true and an opposing 4 would likely create a matchup issue for Tommie on the defensive end. you dont think tommie could guard barry eberhardt? as i said, rickma will look for the situations that it will work. he wouldnt make him guard say michael beasley unless he absolutely had to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I see what your saying, and in certain situations, that may work. But while Tommie could cause a matchup issue for an opposing 4 on the offensive end, the vice versa is true and an opposing 4 would likely create a matchup issue for Tommie on the defensive end. I'm guessing if we go with TL at the 4 in a four guard lineup we could/would play a zone, right? TL wouldn't necessarily have to matchup with the opposing 4. I'm not an x's and o's guy so i could be way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willie Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 sshoe, i am by no means downplayng eberhardt or conklin. i think they will be very good this year. i am forseeing the best year of power forward for the billikens since the baniak/tatum days. however, i think that rickma will look for opportunities to present matchup problems and use tommie as a "4" in certain situations for short spurts to try to force the opposing coach to react to tommies quickness and ball skills. look at it this way. what if the opposing team had barry eberhardt as their power forward. if we use our barry eberhardt to guard him that is a wash. even conklin isnt going to dominate a barry eberhardt. yet a tommie going against barry would be a terrible mismatch for the opposition. they would be forced to swich a wing off on tommie and try to guard one of our wings with their barry. or switch defenses or sub a different player. meanwhile about the time the coach adjusts, rickma brings our barry or conklin back in and took a 6 point advantage for that 3 or 4 minute span. one thing i will defend rickma on is game moves. rickma is no dummy and will coach on the fly with anyone. the truth is that now that he has his own players that he wants to use, it will become even more apparent. I think what your suggesting would be a lot more likely if Rick believed in pressing. If you pressed you could be like that for a few min. If you don't press anything you gain on the offense is negated on defense. I don't think you'll see it unless somebody is hurt or a lot of foul trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malibubill Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 In a prior post in this tread, Roy wrote "i also agree with david that umass, bc and siu are opportunities to win. in fact if lisch shuts down rice, i think more of the chance to beat boston college than kent state." How many of our opponents think their game against SLU is an opportunity for a win. My guess is the number is rather high because of the youth on the team. If that is true, won't some of those games probably be wins? Are we drinking the kool-aid too soon? I love the passion on the board, and I'm as optimistic as anyone - but to expect the billikens to win 20 games seems to be putting the cart before the horse. Let's just let them play the games and enjoy them without saying if they don't win 18-20 games the team will be a disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SShoe Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 you dont think tommie could guard barry eberhardt? as i said, rickma will look for the situations that it will work. he wouldnt make him guard say michael beasley unless he absolutely had to. He might be able to guard BE, but I think he would have more difficulty guarding somebody like Derrick Brown or even a Charles Little in the post than BE or BC would, which is much more in the middle of BE and Michael Beasley. I'm not contending that there could be some times when TL plays the "4" position, but if it is done with any regularity, then I think it's probably because BC isn't ready or BE is in the dog house and I think most Billiken fans would agree that's a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Hoops Insider Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Many have stated that they think Cotto and Kwamain Mitchell are among the top players on the team. If true, the only way to get the top 5 players on the court at the same time would be to play a 4 guard lineup. Ofcourse it wouldnt be a permanent thing, but 8-10 minutes a game would be interesting to see with different sets of guards. There are a lot of weapons to play with in this offense. I'd love to see these guys get out and run. I think you can run without being erratic and I've seen so many past billiken teams have trouble scoring particularly in the halfcourt that I'd love for them to look to run off of most rebounds. With the extremely long shot clock there is more than enough time to get in to a halfcourt set if the running opportunity is not there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Many have stated that they think Cotto and Kwamain Mitchell are among the top players on the team. If true, the only way to get the top 5 players on the court at the same time would be to play a 4 guard lineup. Ofcourse it wouldnt be a permanent thing, but 8-10 minutes a game would be interesting to see with different sets of guards. There are a lot of weapons to play with in this offense. I'd love to see these guys get out and run. Do majerus teams run many 4 guard lineups? Also, why not have some equilibrium between your starting 5 and the 3-4 subs that come off the bench? Why have all the "best" players out there at one time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Hoops Insider Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Do majerus teams run many 4 guard lineups? Also, why not have some equilibrium between your starting 5 and the 3-4 subs that come off the bench? Why have all the "best" players out there at one time. No one says you have to do it all game, but it would be nice to see for spurts, plus you know Lisch and Liddell are going to play 30+ plus anyway so you're just subbing around them for the most part. You could even experiment with play 2 of the 3 freshman bigs inside with the seniors on the perimeter in a zone defense look with Lisch and Liddell in the backcourt. That might never happen at all, but this team definitely has so many options versus previous years where it was Lisch, Liddell and ofcourse the first 2 years Voyoukas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 No one says you have to do it all game, but it would be nice to see for spurts, plus you know Lisch and Liddell are going to play 30+ plus anyway so you're just subbing around them for the most part. You could even experiment with play 2 of the 3 freshman bigs inside with the seniors on the perimeter in a zone defense look with Lisch and Liddell in the backcourt. That might never happen at all, but this team definitely has so many options versus previous years where it was Lisch, Liddell and ofcourse the first 2 years Voyoukas. Well, if Majerus coached teams aren't taught it, then it's kind of hard to spring it for 8-10 minutes a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Many have stated that they think Cotto and Kwamain Mitchell are among the top players on the team. If true, the only way to get the top 5 players on the court at the same time would be to play a 4 guard lineup. Ofcourse it wouldnt be a permanent thing, but 8-10 minutes a game would be interesting to see with different sets of guards. There are a lot of weapons to play with in this offense. I'd love to see these guys get out and run. I think you can run without being erratic and I've seen so many past billiken teams have trouble scoring particularly in the halfcourt that I'd love for them to look to run off of most rebounds. With the extremely long shot clock there is more than enough time to get in to a halfcourt set if the running opportunity is not there. Who said they are both in the top 5? Plus just because you may have better guards than bigs, doesn't mean you'd play 5 guards. Sorry, but it just doesn't work like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 i certainly hope not. If Tommie's putting minutes in at the 4, that doesn't bode well for the performance of BE and BC. I agree, we have 4 bigs to man 2 positions, unless there is a matchup that makes it an obvious move, it's not a good thing if TL is playing the 4. Let Tommie be Tommie and play the 3 and have a great year. We recruited new players so that we could put players in the position that best allows them to excell ... so lets do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I'm guessing if we go with TL at the 4 in a four guard lineup we could/would play a zone, right? TL wouldn't necessarily have to matchup with the opposing 4. I'm not an x's and o's guy so i could be way off. rickma might. who can forget him utilizing the triangle and in his national championship runner up season. but for the most part, rickma isnt going to trot out a zone on a regular basis much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Well, if Majerus coached teams aren't taught it, then it's kind of hard to spring it for 8-10 minutes a game. i agree. i think if it would happen, it would be when rickma sees an opportunity based on the player on the floor being subject to getting exploited by a more athletic tommie liddell plus as stlhi pointed out have lisch and cotto and mitchell on the floor all at the same time. it would likely only be a short spurt to try to create a run or just some oppostion confusion and then rickma would go back to something else after the opponent had adjusted. head games. it isnt going to happen a lot, but i think there will be matchup opportunities to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 -i am a huge fan of creating and exploiting mismatches and making the other team prepare and execute against multiple looks -by this i mean pick up full court, trap, half court trap, show a bit of zone, try to break, whatever a few times a game you can do to make the opponent uncomfortable in preparation and playing -i love to see time outs when teams are not prepared for something they see -now with 7 frosh, not sure how much of this we could do, maybe send cotto in to p/u full court, or use cotto and km in a full court set every now and again -one thing i noticed from harris stowe that was different from last year was when we got the defensive rebound it was get to the other end as quick as possible, i like that with the ball handlers i think we have -i am fairly certain i will be entertained this year watching what we are trying to do and the hopeful development as the season progresses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Well, if Majerus coached teams aren't taught it, then it's kind of hard to spring it for 8-10 minutes a game. Some good basketball discussion here. I think Coach could play Tommie at the four a little bit depending on the match-up. Of course a lot also depends on how the big kids develop. I also think the Bills could go with a 4 guard lineup late in games where we are protecting a lead. You could have Mitchell, Kevin, Tommie plus either Ruben or Paul to have on more ballhandler and free throw shooter, then you would only need one big player in that scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drkelsey55 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Some good basketball discussion here. I think Coach could play Tommie at the four a little bit depending on the match-up. Of course a lot also depends on how the big kids develop. I also think the Bills could go with a 4 guard lineup late in games where we are protecting a lead. You could have Mitchell, Kevin, Tommie plus either Ruben or Paul to have on more ballhandler and free throw shooter, then you would only need one big player in that scenario.Cassidy would be in there before Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOSLU68 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Cassidy would be in there before Paul. I like what PE did for us last year and I know he was wearing a back support for the HS game but even now he has slid down from 6th man to about 9th or 10th option depending how our other guards do. We really needed what he gave us last year but the Billikids are here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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