Chaifetz - New Seats

[billiken_roy]

So you are complaining that instead of Red seats in some areas SLU chose to put in cheaper green seats. I think in another post you complianed that when they added more gold they didn't add more red. Now I have heard everything. A fan complaining that the seats are too cheap!

i didnt take it as a complaint as an observation of an inconsistency.

all i know is that if when i go monday, if my choices are blue, gold or high green when my number is barely over 300 that would tend to prove they screwed up in allocation of red seats. and from the accounts that i have heard, the red and low green have been the overwhelming favorites thus far.

it would be interesting to see if the people sitting in those seats are truly the account holders like the shoes. i have a feeling that the shoes are the exception. and if that is the case, bingo slu screwed up.

[NashvilleBilliken]

This would help the confusion"

"If you have not joined the BC, please do so, because ALL BC members (regardless of points) will pick first based upon their points. Then, after all BC members have selected their seats, all non-BC will pick second based upon their points." 14 point bold would help as well.

BTW, you'd be surprised at what is mailed to ticketholders v. what is mailed to BC members. Those who were already BC received more notification, warnings and explanations - even though they would not be negatively affected - than non-BC who would be negatively affected. Between warnings on this Board, my recent re-joining of the BC, etc., I warned several long-time holders who didn't believe SLU would be taking ALL BC holders over non-BC holders.

I don't see what all the fuss is about. This is standard stuff. I bought Vandy season tickets for the first time this year. I couldn't even consider getting a seat in the lowest section or a sideline seat on the second teir without a $500 (minimum) Commodore Club donation (this is the way it sounds clock wants it). So, I am behind the basket on the second level. Anybody could sit in the three hundred level seats. I would venture that most arenas work the same way.

I don't think it's bad to put some cheap seats in the lower levels. It's gives the loyal fans who don't have a lot of financial means an opportunity to sit closer to the action than ever before. The problem is that the big donors are expected to give big. When they go cheap it hurts the system....but that's there right.

[kshoe]

Shoe. Don't know how I can make it any clearer for you. The complaint is the same. Not 2 complaints. The decisions as to which seats are Red and which seats get Green is the complaint. Also, this is not an isolated complaint by a fan that SLU has priced seats too cheap. If you like to develop to straw arguments for you to knock down, go ahead but just let me know in advance and I will then ignore.

I understand that the complaint is the same. Do you see that I think it is funny that you are essentially complaining because you believe the end-zone seats are too cheap. A fan complaining that the seats are too cheap. Good stuff.

The title of this thread is about an apparent bad start to the selection of seating. My questions (you call them complaints) were levied in response to the supportive posts of Mark Wright and having done a really good job implementing a system to maximize the needed revenue, how smooth things were going, and how the process was nearly complete after 10% of the accounts had selected. I am not complaining about the seats being too cheap. $450 per seat (every seat in the arena) is a hefty price and a big increase from the past. On top of that, annual fees per seat (a large and madatory fee) hardly make the seats cheap.

You've been complaining about this process for months now. Don't act like the only reason you are speaking up now is because of a couple positive posts about MW. You started off with the negative topic name even before the seating process began.

Before some annnoint Mark Wright as a genious who simply cannot please all - always will be a few wingnuts like Clock - I questioned (you call it complained) the wisdom of the location of the seat categories (not the number of seats per category or the price of each seat). If the current plan makes all 100 level courtside seats (Gold) as well as the low corners (Gold), and if our long time boosters are choosing not only 100 level Red (as I had always feard) but Green seats as well (point of the thread), where does that put a guy like me? As mentioned, our family priorities do not allow for prices of $950 per seat for college basketball games. Answer: up higher in the corners/behind the basket or the 200 level Red. If 500 people who reserved Gold choose Red or Green instead, SLU will not bring the 200 level Red seats down the equivalent number of seats.

I truly want and prefer 100 level seats. Maybe I am the only guy who does. Even so, I suspect that all 100 level Red seats will be gone when I choose, I cannot choose Gold seats, and therefore I will choose Green. SLU then loses $150 per seat which I would have been willing to pay. If that makes MW a genious in your mind, so be it.

First of all, the 200 level seats at the Chaifetz are equivalent to the upper 100 regions at the Savvis. So lets not act like you are being stuck in an upperdeck somewhere. I do believe you are the only person I know that would prefer to sit in the last row of the 100 section in an endzone than the 1st row of the red 200 section at mid court.

[billiken_roy]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. This is standard stuff. I bought Vandy season tickets for the first time this year. I couldn't even consider getting a seat in the lowest section or a sideline seat on the second teir without a $500 (minimum) Commodore Club donation (this is the way it sounds clock wants it). So, I am behind the basket on the second level. Anybody could sit in the three hundred level seats. I would venture that most arenas work the same way.

I don't think it's bad to put some cheap seats in the lower levels. It's gives the loyal fans who don't have a lot of financial means an opportunity to sit closer to the action than ever before. The problem is that the big donors are expected to give big. When they go cheap it hurts the system....but that's there right.

nashville i dont think that clock is upset about paying the price. i know i am not. in fact i will up my donation to try to push my points higher by the next shuffle.

my point is that it appears the hangerons have found new homes to get their seats. who would have thought the top 300 would be buying out the red and greens? or is the the truth they are buying those extra seats to sit their "friends" that wont join the billiken club and would have been at the end of the line and want seats better than they deserve?

sure this system is going to generate more money for the program. which is good. but i cant help but believe that if they would have said, no additional seats until everyone else picked first, that it would have generated even more.

[Clock_Tower]

I understand that the complaint is the same. Do you see that I think it is funny that you are essentially complaining because you believe the end-zone seats are too cheap. A fan complaining that the seats are too cheap. Good stuff.

The title of this thread is about an apparent bad start to the selection of seating. My questions (you call them complaints) were levied in response to the supportive posts of Mark Wright and having done a really good job implementing a system to maximize the needed revenue, how smooth things were going, and how the process was nearly complete after 10% of the accounts had selected. I am not complaining about the seats being too cheap. $450 per seat (every seat in the arena) is a hefty price and a big increase from the past. On top of that, annual fees per seat (a large and madatory fee) hardly make the seats cheap.

You've been complaining about this process for months now. Don't act like the only reason you are speaking up now is because of a couple positive posts about MW. You started off with the negative topic name even before the seating process began.

Before some annnoint Mark Wright as a genious who simply cannot please all - always will be a few wingnuts like Clock - I questioned (you call it complained) the wisdom of the location of the seat categories (not the number of seats per category or the price of each seat). If the current plan makes all 100 level courtside seats (Gold) as well as the low corners (Gold), and if our long time boosters are choosing not only 100 level Red (as I had always feard) but Green seats as well (point of the thread), where does that put a guy like me? As mentioned, our family priorities do not allow for prices of $950 per seat for college basketball games. Answer: up higher in the corners/behind the basket or the 200 level Red. If 500 people who reserved Gold choose Red or Green instead, SLU will not bring the 200 level Red seats down the equivalent number of seats.

I truly want and prefer 100 level seats. Maybe I am the only guy who does. Even so, I suspect that all 100 level Red seats will be gone when I choose, I cannot choose Gold seats, and therefore I will choose Green. SLU then loses $150 per seat which I would have been willing to pay. If that makes MW a genious in your mind, so be it.

First of all, the 200 level seats at the Chaifetz are equivalent to the upper 100 regions at the Savvis. So lets not act like you are being stuck in an upperdeck somewhere. I do believe you are the only person I know that would prefer to sit in the last row of the 100 section in an endzone than the 1st row of the red 200 section at mid court.

You're right Shoe.

Mark Wright is a genious.

SLU has handled everything perfectly.

Every seat at Chaveitz is awesome.

It will just be honor to sit anywhere in the building. I'm just lucky I will have a ticket.

And today, I learned that I can donate $150, or more, for no reason.

Life is wonderful. Sorry for the negativity.

Good Stuff. Shoe.

[kshoe]

You're right Shoe.

Mark Wright is a genious.

SLU has handled everything perfectly.

Every seat at Chaveitz is awesome.

It will just be honor to sit anywhere in the building. I'm just lucky I will have a ticket.

And today, I learned that I can donate $150, or more, for no reason.

Life is wonderful. Sorry for the negativity.

Good Stuff. Shoe.

No Clock, you are right. SLU really pisses me off by offering green seats in decent locations. What a bunch of bastards. This whole thing has been screwed up from the beginning. What a disaster. Green seats in decent locations. Oh the horror!

[Billiken Rich]

No Clock, you are right. SLU really pisses me off by offering green seats in decent locations. What a bunch of bastards. This whole thing has been screwed up from the beginning. What a disaster. Green seats in decent locations. Oh the horror!

Believe me, I wish they were all green seats but it does seem odd to jump straight from gold to gree without red in the middle.

Also I'd rather be midcourt and in the rafters than endcourt and low....

[Cowboy]

Also I'd rather be midcourt and in the rafters than endcourt and low....

this part of the beauty of life, people have different preferences - obviously some would disagree with you, but that is cool, and you would disagree with their thoughts, but that is cool, too, as long as we respect the other thought

if everybody only ate mcdonalds there would be no dairy queen and therefore no blizzards and the world is a much better place because of blizzards!!!

i am way too deep for a monday

[Box and Won]

if everybody only ate mcdonalds there would be no dairy queen and therefore no blizzards

I'd prefer not to think about such a world.

[slufanskip]

nashville i dont think that clock is upset about paying the price. i know i am not. in fact i will up my donation to try to push my points higher by the next shuffle.

my point is that it appears the hangerons have found new homes to get their seats. who would have thought the top 300 would be buying out the red and greens? or is the the truth they are buying those extra seats to sit their "friends" that wont join the billiken club and would have been at the end of the line and want seats better than they deserve?

sure this system is going to generate more money for the program. which is good. but i cant help but believe that if they would have said, no additional seats until everyone else picked first, that it would have generated even more.

Or maybe some of them have a lot of points because they are 20-30 year season ticket holders and previously only gave a one time donation of $100 or maybe even $500 to the billiken club. This year the seats are at least $100 more expensive which over the cost of 8 seats, that alone would make the season tickets more expensive ... now you add another $150 per seat to each of 6 or 8 seats or how about $400. per seat more .... they may not be able to afford the higher priced seats. I know people who sit near me and just became Billiken Club members but have had season tickets for many more years than I have ... I'm sure there points are higher than mine, but I doubt they will even take the seats with the $150 donation per seat. We've talked about it and I'm sure they will take the seats without a fee.

[slufanskip]

You're right Shoe.

Mark Wright is a genious.

SLU has handled everything perfectly.

Every seat at Chaveitz is awesome.

It will just be honor to sit anywhere in the building. I'm just lucky I will have a ticket.

And today, I learned that I can donate $150, or more, for no reason.

Life is wonderful. Sorry for the negativity.

Good Stuff. Shoe.

I don't remember the thread, but I think it was about players who transfered losing a year. You posted telling me to quit crying ... how about taking your own advice ... or is it different when it's something you don't agree with. I'm curious.

[billiken_roy]

Or maybe some of them have a lot of points because they are 20-30 year season ticket holders and previously only gave a one time donation of $100 or maybe even $500 to the billiken club. This year the seats are at least $100 more expensive which over the cost of 8 seats, that alone would make the season tickets more expensive ... now you add another $150 per seat to each of 6 or 8 seats or how about $400. per seat more .... they may not be able to afford the higher priced seats. I know people who sit near me and just became Billiken Club members but have had season tickets for many more years than I have ... I'm sure there points are higher than mine, but I doubt they will even take the seats with the $150 donation per seat. We've talked about it and I'm sure they will take the seats without a fee.

skip i have no problem with the fan you describe above. i wish they would donate something even if in green seats, but that fan is fine. again, my problem is with the guy that cartel heads are carrying. i just dont think that is right.

but maybe i should join the crowd. take in a "border" that will pay the seat fee and i get the points just so they can move up in line and get seats the same time that i do? i have had plenty of folks that know i have a fairly nice priority number ask. i have said no, but maybe i should just use the system as well.

[Cowboy]

-many predicted there would be bitching about seat selection, i guess i am surprised at some of the sub-topics beneath it that have been discussed

-now we have someone that has complained about seats they haven't selected yet, complained about the selections made by people ahead them in line and they are looking for someone to tell them it is ok "to use the system" so later they can say i was going to martyr myself, but i just played by the rules

[slufanskip]

skip i have no problem with the fan you describe above. i wish they would donate something even if in green seats, but that fan is fine. again, my problem is with the guy that cartel heads are carrying. i just dont think that is right.

but maybe i should join the crowd. take in a "border" that will pay the seat fee and i get the points just so they can move up in line and get seats the same time that i do? i have had plenty of folks that know i have a fairly nice priority number ask. i have said no, but maybe i should just use the system as well.

I agree with you about the guys that piggy back on someone else's account, but I bet there are more of the fans that I describe than you think and it may be a valid reason why the seats without fees are being taken quicker than we would expect.

Just do the math. Last year you had 6 tickets at I think mine would have been $350-$400 per seat, so I'll use $375. That's an increase of $450 for 6 seats in the no fee section. If they had been making a $150 donation to the Billiken Club, they will now spend $300 more and get what are probably no better if not worse seats. Now lets say they decide to take the $150 per seat seats, times 6 that is now an increase of 1200.00 for what are probably equal seats. If they were to take the next jump to $400 per seat seats it would be $2700.00 more for their 6 seats. Many older people who may be 25 year season ticket holders, just can't afford that jump. They have high numbers due to their longevity, but that doesn't neccessarily make them big doners.

Imo the biggest problem is their aren't more levels. Every seat should have a $50 per seat fee, with the next step up maybe $150 per seat then a level in between the $150 and $400 fees, maybe $250. The jump from $150 per to $400 per is huge, especially if you have 4, 6, or 8 seats.

8 seats x $375 per plus $125. BC donation equals $3125.

8 seats x $450 per plus $125. BC donation equals $3725

8 seats x $450 per plus $150 per seat BC fee equals $4800

8 seats x $450 per plus $400 per seat BC fee equals $6800

For a person with good seats due to longevity to get comparable seats they would probably have to double their expense. Maybe the reason the cheaper seats are getting taken by people with #'s lower than 300.

[billiken_roy]

-many predicted there would be bitching about seat selection, i guess i am surprised at some of the sub-topics beneath it that have been discussed

-now we have someone that has complained about seats they haven't selected yet, complained about the selections made by people ahead them in line and they are looking for someone to tell them it is ok "to use the system" so later they can say i was going to martyr myself, but i just played by the rules

fyi cowboy, i have played by the rules for 15 years. i have donated mid 3 figures for 15 years. and that is going to get me seats further from the court than what i have now for a significant higher total cash outlay.

i have already decided and said above i will double my billiken club gift (which will be higher than the mandated gift for the number of seats i will buy) going forward in hopes that the next shuffle it might help me move up to a level that will get past this.

i can only assume you approve of the hanger ons getting around the system since you are so quick to attack me. hopefully your friends you are apparently carrying appreciate what you are doing for them. good for you. you are a good man for them.

[billikendave]

fyi cowboy, i have played by the rules for 15 years. i have donated mid 3 figures for 15 years. and that is going to get me seats further from the court than what i have now for a significant higher total cash outlay.

i have already decided and said above i will double my billiken club gift (which will be higher than the mandated gift for the number of seats i will buy) going forward in hopes that the next shuffle it might help me move up to a level that will get past this.

i can only assume you approve of the hanger ons getting around the system since you are so quick to attack me. hopefully your friends you are apparently carrying appreciate what you are doing for them. good for you. you are a good man for them.

Given the time, man power and grief involved, I would be stunned if they "reshuffled" anytime in the next 15 years.

[billiken_roy]

Given the time, man power and grief involved, I would be stunned if they "reshuffled" anytime in the next 15 years.

if it becomes apparent that you are correct and the athletic dept wont reshuffle, i would think a large number of folks would discontinue donating past their required donation. i hope you are wrong. imo, if they continue to put a notice out there it will happen and then indeed do reshuffle, realization will set in and boosters will pay to enhance or at least try to keep their place in line. sure there are those of us miffed about different happenings, but that is going to happen. every problem is nothing more than an opportunity to interact with the booster. and if you can successfully appease that booster, you likely enhance your chance of added revenue and goodwill.

btw, i believe there are quite a few programs that shuffle frequently. i am thinking cincy does it annually. i think georgetown does as well.

the reason there is a precieved man power issue is the fact we havent done it in years. preforming the seating on a regular basis would refine a system that would be less of a hassle every time done. and as to the grief, we would become used to the process if it was done more than once every 15 years. once a true system is in place, it is human nature to follow the rules and conform with most people.

the dept should look at this as a happening that could be used for PR purposes and an opportunity to mingle with boosters, and an opportunity to build goodwill not tear it down. other than the games themselves, there is no better way to get the boosters to come to them than this. think about it this way, when we hold billiken club meetings there are probably less than 100 accounts that show up. yet we have what about 3,000 total accts? not going to milk the cow much on that percentage. but this seat shuffle brings in close to 100% of the accts to the facility. the athletic dept. get to wine and dine and cultivate relationships with anyone and everyone they want to. who knows who might turn into the next richard chaifetz.

[TheBand]

my point is that it appears the hangerons have found new homes to get their seats. who would have thought the top 300 would be buying out the red and greens?

Roy, based on the tickets reserved when I was there on thursday, this is not the case. There are some tickets taken in those section, but not as many as you think. The upper level folks seem to be following the pattern and taking the higher priced lower level gold and blue. There were about a dozen or so seats taken in the red from what I could tell. Doesn't appear to be all sold out.

[Cowboy]

fyi cowboy, i have played by the rules for 15 years. i have donated mid 3 figures for 15 years. and that is going to get me seats further from the court than what i have now for a significant higher total cash outlay.

do you want a pat on the back for being a donor to the bclub?

i think there are many people having to spend more in the new bldg than they did previously, a new bldg and high profile coach raised the price of poker.

good that you know where your new seats will be since you haven't selected yet, i thought walt's idea was to maintain a positive mindset.

i have already decided and said above i will double my billiken club gift (which will be higher than the mandated gift for the number of seats i will buy) going forward in hopes that the next shuffle it might help me move up to a level that will get past this.

good, that is the goal of the whole deal - more revenue for the athdept - glad you get that and can contribute

i can only assume you approve of the hanger ons getting around the system since you are so quick to attack me. hopefully your friends you are apparently carrying appreciate what you are doing for them. good for you. you are a good man for them.

you do make alot of assumptions, don't you???

there was no attack, just reading the cards on the table as i saw them

[billikendave]

if it becomes apparent that you are correct and the athletic dept wont reshuffle, i would think a large number of folks would discontinue donating past their required donation. i hope you are wrong. imo, if they continue to put a notice out there it will happen and then indeed do reshuffle, realization will set in and boosters will pay to enhance or at least try to keep their place in line. sure there are those of us miffed about different happenings, but that is going to happen. every problem is nothing more than an opportunity to interact with the booster. and if you can successfully appease that booster, you likely enhance your chance of added revenue and goodwill.

btw, i believe there are quite a few programs that shuffle frequently. i am thinking cincy does it annually. i think georgetown does as well.

the reason there is a precieved man power issue is the fact we havent done it in years. preforming the seating on a regular basis would refine a system that would be less of a hassle every time done. and as to the grief, we would become used to the process if it was done more than once every 15 years. once a true system is in place, it is human nature to follow the rules and conform with most people.

the dept should look at this as a happening that could be used for PR purposes and an opportunity to mingle with boosters, and an opportunity to build goodwill not tear it down. other than the games themselves, there is no better way to get the boosters to come to them than this. think about it this way, when we hold billiken club meetings there are probably less than 100 accounts that show up. yet we have what about 3,000 total accts? not going to milk the cow much on that percentage. but this seat shuffle brings in close to 100% of the accts to the facility. the athletic dept. get to wine and dine and cultivate relationships with anyone and everyone they want to. who knows who might turn into the next richard chaifetz.

In many ways the issue of the "reshuffle" is probably the elephant in the room that no one is discussing. I have looked at this as the seats I will have for the next 15 -20 years. The one time chance to get good seats with the potential to improve when others don't renew. But realistically like getting the best Rams/Cardinal tickets. Very unlikely unless you are connected or have a boat load of cash to donate.

Shoot, I can live with getting screwed or less than desirable tickets if I get a new chance in 1, 2, or 5 years. Also, it woudl solve a lot of questions about how many tickets i need for the rest of time...

I wonder why this hasn't been a bigger issue?

[Billiken Rich]

In many ways the issue of the "reshuffle" is probably the elephant in the room that no one is discussing. I have looked at this as the seats I will have for the next 15 -20 years. The one time chance to get good seats with the potential to improve when others don't renew. But realistically like getting the best Rams/Cardinal tickets. Very unlikely unless you are connected or have a boat load of cash to donate.

Shoot, I can live with getting screwed or less than desirable tickets if I get a new chance in 1, 2, or 5 years. Also, it woudl solve a lot of questions about how many tickets i need for the rest of time...

I wonder why this hasn't been a bigger issue?

This reshuffling idea is nightmarish. Going through this once per building is more than enough.......

Like the in the old Soviet Politboro, death will cause more than enough turnover.

[slu72 fan]

Based on the information I have from the Billiken Club Board meetings, I believe they are very serious about the reseating every 3 or 4 years. This is the only way they can be sure people continue to donate to the Billiken Club.

It will all depend on the performance of the team. If the team does well, attendance goes up, demand for seats goes up, and the place will be reseated. Conversely, if the team does poorly, attendance declines further, I think they'll be very nervous about reseating and potentially losing more season ticket holders.

I started much of this discussion by stating I thought MW had done a good job, given what is his task, and that the project was nearly complete. Having read the thread it appears that most people, not all, have been able to purchase seats in locations that they can live with. No plan of this scope will make everyone happy, but it seems most are.

When I said that the project was nearly complete, which Clock took exception towards, I'd say we're in the last few days of a two year project. I think that's nearly complete. I began having discussions with MW nearly 2 years ago. The original plan morphed a number of times to it's final shape. It seems, given the culture change, to have accomplished the goal, raise more money without destroying the season ticket base, and provide a culture for continued giving.

Again, the onus will be on the team to deliver a brand of hoops that we, and others, are willing to fork out cash to come see.

[Billiken Rich]

Based on the information I have from the Billiken Club Board meetings, I believe they are very serious about the reseating every 3 or 4 years. This is the only way they can be sure people continue to donate to the Billiken Club.

I really hope you are wrong. Reseating is a sure way to piss off a lot of people. I would think upgrade through attrition would still make people care about the Billiken club. It was nice to upgrade every few years at the Kiel but a forced migration would suck.

[billiken_roy]

if done fairly and right, the only people reseating will upset are those that are not really contributing.

of course there are wrinkles in what is currently transpiring. they (the current athletic dept staff) has never done this before. however, if they regularly do it, one would think they would get better at it, figure all the angles and improve the process to reward those that are doing things correctly and giving what they can.

my loudest b!tch is hangerons. i really thought they would finally be put at the back of the line and while i am sure some have, i am now of the belief too many just found new "sponsors". but that said, i am just as sure that slu doesnt like that either. the hangerons found the crack and exploited it, and it is too late to do anything now. but one would think they will fix that by the next reshuffle in say 2-3 years. and those of us still giving and trying to improve our rankings will eventually be rewarded.

not much else we can do but hope that is the case.

from slu's perspective, as i said above, if they get good at this, the whole process can be turned into a very positive experience and opportunity to smooze the fan base. building tomorrow's high rollers and a win win for everyone that we should be concerned with.

i think the absolutely worst thing that happens is that we are stuck in our seats for eternity with our only hope that someone gets mad or dies and releases their seats and we are lucky enough to be next in line to upgrade. i really dont see that as a reason to give extra thus fund raising would revert back to begging or just raising the price of the mandatory gift. personally i'd rather decide for myself how much of a "gift" i want to give.

[Billiken Rich]

if done fairly and right, the only people reseating will upset are those that are not really contributing.

of course there are wrinkles in what is currently transpiring. they (the current athletic dept staff) has never done this before. however, if they regularly do it, one would think they would get better at it, figure all the angles and improve the process to reward those that are doing things correctly and giving what they can.

my loudest b!tch is hangerons. i really thought they would finally be put at the back of the line and while i am sure some have, i am now of the belief too many just found new "sponsors". but that said, i am just as sure that slu doesnt like that either. the hangerons found the crack and exploited it, and it is too late to do anything now. but one would think they will fix that by the next reshuffle in say 2-3 years. and those of us still giving and trying to improve our rankings will eventually be rewarded.

not much else we can do but hope that is the case.

from slu's perspective, as i said above, if they get good at this, the whole process can be turned into a very positive experience and opportunity to smooze the fan base. building tomorrow's high rollers and a win win for everyone that we should be concerned with.

i think the absolutely worst thing that happens is that we are stuck in our seats for eternity with our only hope that someone gets mad or dies and releases their seats and we are lucky enough to be next in line to upgrade. i really dont see that as a reason to give extra thus fund raising would revert back to begging or just raising the price of the mandatory gift. personally i'd rather decide for myself how much of a "gift" i want to give.

Seriously Roy, this is an invitation for a (second?) colonoscopy every few years

..........they do not get better with practice.....