brianstl Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...19?OpenDocument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenTX Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Sweet, more non SLU related posts. But at least you don't mention Brad's track record of recruiting in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 It's about time. Any institution that cares about their academic reputation should know better than to have a mascot that could be considered racist. I can't believe it's taken this long for so many schools to realize that, and I don't really understand why so many students and alums are so outspoken against the change. They should be well-educated enough to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie_Gaedel Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Thanks Brian.. in spite of BillikenTX it's good to have other team's information. It's called open-minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLUDrew Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Haven't we kept Native Americans under our thumb for long enough? My God, we nearly eradicated an entire nation of people and the ones that were left were placed on reservations to live in deplorable conditions. All they ask is that we not use their image as a mascot. Why are many so cold to that request? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NashvilleBilliken Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I really have mixed feelings on this issue. Of course, I never want people to be offended...especially by something as petty as a sports mascot. But, unfortunately, our nations interest in the Native American culture is slim to none. Personally, I do not interact with Native Americans on a daily or monthly basis. I never see things in the paper or on TV regarding Native Americans or their history (unless it's T-giving), or even their current issues. I feel this is a culture that is dying, and as pathetic as it may be, the sports mascot is one of the few things that keep this culture in the spotlight. I would have been much more impressed (with both sides) if the NCAA and Illini worked with Native Americans to try and figure out what was so racist and come up with a resolution to change those things and educate people on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenTX Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I can easily go to espn.com or cnnsi.com to read about this topic or better yet the postdispatch.com to read this. Why do we have to bring it up billikens.com? People come here to read about SLU basketball and to a lesser extent SLU athletics in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 This is something that has to do with college basketball and college sports, as well as our society as a whole. I think this is a great forum for an issue that is relevant in a number of ways. It's not SLU (fortunately), but it's an "area" athletic program that will be undergoing a change. I think it's very interesting, and see no reason whatsoever that something that is non-SLU can't be on this board. There are big things going on in college basketball and college sports outside of SLU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry the Legend Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 OK, first off how is his portrayal offensive? I see nothing of the sort. Every time there is this discussion, nothing is said on how Illiniwek portrays the Indian heritage in a negative way. Isn't this how they dressed and wasn't this some of their customs and rituals??? Why are people questioning this? However, I guess Illinois looked at the bigger picture and the additional revenue that would come from hosting NCAA events on campus. I still see no reason how the use of the mascot in athletic events was disrespectful at all. Call me blind but I think that this is simply the way things are moving in society - that freedom of speech and expression are being called into question on everything. People's feelings are on very little thing. It is ridiculous!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry the Legend Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 then give us something positive regarding SLU athletics to talk about. This is an open forum and we are all free to talk about issues such as this. If you don't want to read it then simply disregard it. It's that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NashvilleBilliken Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Completely independent of this topic, I've been telling my friends for years that "political correctness" is going to be the downfall of our nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billikenexpress Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 The SLU mascot scares the hell out of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 >OK, first off how is his portrayal offensive? I see nothing >of the sort. Every time there is this discussion, nothing >is said on how Illiniwek portrays the Indian heritage in a >negative way. They're caricatures of Indian heritage, not accurate representations. And even if they were accurate, reducing a people's patriarchal and spiritual leaders to a college mascot is totally inappropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Larry, i'll try to find some old responses i had on this (they were lengthy and i don't want to retype the whole thing). Basically, it comes down to marginalizing native americans and representing them as trinkets, things of the past with little or no relevance today. "this how they dressed and wasn't this some of their customs and rituals???" how who dressed? What customs? each tribe has its own traditions and customs. The problem with these mascots is they lump it all together (incorrectly) and drive most of mainstream society to regard indians as past relics. These are nations that are still trying to get electricity to 40,000 members of the navajo nation or proper infrastructure to pine ridge. Its tough to serve these purposes effectively when most members of congress think of an indian as some chap in buckskins (and indian problems are addressed by the federal congress. states have little power and even less interest in assisting tribes). this doesn't get to the larger point that not all tribes dressed like this and tribal members today do not dress or act like that. Perhaps some tribal members of the illinois based tribes did dress like this at one time, but that was usually reserved for a sacred ceremony. Whereas, Illinois and other universities have paraded these ceremonial aspects around the public forum where they become less sacred. Take a sacred aspect of Catholicism and parade it around a stadium and that's what it is similar to. There's so much more to this issue...let me try to find my prior posts... For those that question my credibility on the issue, i'm a member of an indian tribe in oklahoma (muscogee creek nation) and have spent the last 7 years assisting many nations in the lower 48 states on energy, and to a larger extent, economic development as well as lobbying federal officials on behalf of tribal issues. I don't necessarily agree with much of the P.C. debate about tribes (i don't do casino work), but i see on a day-to-day basis how the gross (and incorrect) generalizations negatively affect tribes. And this affects the organic aspects of tribes...the tribal members themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJ20 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Larry you are very right! Chief Illiniwek is in no way offensive! The Illini Native Americans in Illinois actually are quite proud of how U of I portrays their people. The guy who is the mascot chief in the summer goes on a retreat with the Illini Native Americans and spends a significant amount of time learning their culture and ways as well as the tribal dance that he performs at halftime. I understand that most mascots and themes pertaining to Native Americans and other ethnic or cultural groups are offensive and need to go, but it is a sad day that the Chief has finally been run out of town Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromGreeceWithLove Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 You honestly care if a college or professional sports team has an Indian as a mascot? Liberals are taking over this board. People take life too seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry the Legend Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 >They're caricatures of Indian heritage, >not accurate representations. And even if they were accurate, >reducing a people's patriarchal and spiritual leaders to a college mascot is totally inappropriate. In what way? Is a mascot some low life piece of garbage? I simply don't get it? Tell me why? There are plenty of caricatures of heritages all over this world. People express this through art, music, culture, etc. So why is this anything different? If someone drew a picture and you saw it in an office building, would you protest it because it wasn't a good representation of whatever the heck it was trying to portray? (I know that wasn't a good example, someone else help me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 >Completely independent of this topic, I've been telling my >friends for years that "political correctness" is going to >be the downfall of our nation. WOW! With all that is going on in this country, it's "political correctness" that is our biggest threat?!?! So slavery, the Civil War, two World Wars, the Vietnam War and the decider's bungled adventure in Iraq won't lead to the downfall of this country, but political correctness (whatever that means) will??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry the Legend Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Thanks for the history. I will be the first to admit I have little knowledge on American Indian culture and appreciate your input. However, I still am a little confused as to why this mascot was getting all of the attention when it was the aforementioned issues you stated that are more serious. Why resort to this mascot at a University? It seems like the big picture in this issue is a little distorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Why not hand out rosaries or foam crosses and use those as props during a game to cheer on the Billikens? I think we would agree that such mass reproduction without an appreciation for the thing being reproduced amounts to a lessening of the thing's importance. To address a post below, i have mixed feelings on tribal authorization of the mascot. On the one hand, i'm absolutely for tribal sovereignty and self-determination, on the other, I feel that the national spotlight recevied by a mascot has an affect on more than just the one tribe (seminoles in florida, which by the way, the seminoles in oklahoma are at odds with over the mascot) or group of tribes (the tribes in illinois, which at the time, i'm having a hard time thinking of any federally recognized tribes in illinois). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 "In what way? Is a mascot some low life piece of garbage? I simply don't get it? Tell me why?" If you can't understand why a sacred aspect of one's heritage being used a cheerleader at college sporting events would be offensive, we're just not speaking the same language. It would be like a Christian trying explain the divinity of Jesus to an atheist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 No problem. I appreciate a good discussion on mascots and try to understand both sides of the issue. To address your question, mascots get the headlines and lack of electricity doesn't. It's a sexy, but shallow issue. Also, there's money to be had as well by tribes. The seminoles of florida don't mind the mascot as long as they keep receiving the healthy licensing revenues. You're right, the big picture definitely gets distorted. Is the root cause because tribes are arguing against mascots or is it because mainstream society thinks of indians as mascots? Probably a mix of both. Also, you have schools that have a business perspective on the issue and are damned determined to fight for the business goodwill that the mascot has garnered. For better or worse, Illinois receives a certain amount of recognition because of the mascot, same for Florida State. They aren't likely to give up that fight easily, unless, say the prohibition against post-season events is costing them more money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NashvilleBilliken Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 All the problems you present have been part of life for thousands of year. The US has endured these things in the past, perservered, and rose to a Super Power. If we spent half the time, energy, and money that goes into political correctness, a lot of positive things could happen. Just a few examples, does the fact that Michael Richards used the N word during an act have any effect whatsoever on anybody's lives? Absolutely not. Yet, it was aruguably the biggest story in the country for a few weeks. Does the fact that GW was recorded saying a cuss word have any bearing on our country (who out there doesn't swear). Ahnold says the word "girly man" and he is now a homophobic gay basher. People are way too wrapped up in how people say things or who might get offended. There is a very fine line between being offensive and having thin skin. We concentrate way too much on the little things...the insignificant things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Chief Illiniwek was probably the greatest mascot, with the best traditions, in all of the college landscape. We have become way too politically correct thanks to the far left liberals in this country. It is really a sad shame that the Chief will be no more. It was a great tradition that will be sorely missed. If you've never seen him perform live at a football or basketball game at U of I, you really missed out. It was areguably the best tradition in all of sports.. This is a sad day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moytoy12 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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