U of I gives in

[Canadian]

Being of Irish decent, I am in fact honored that the University of Notre Dame uses my ancestors as their mascot. This situation is nearly identical. The fighting Irish is a great respect to my fellow Irishmen and I hope that the whacked out liberals in this country don't start going after this.

Chief, you will be missed.

[moytoy12]

Will the persecution of the Irish ever stop? Fight on Notre Dame.

[Box and Won]

I am half Irish, half Scottish, so my vitriol is directed to both the Fightin' Irish and the (Ohio Valley University) Fightin' Scots.

We're peaceful people, damn it. Don't make us come down there to crack some skulls.

[ACE]

So let me get this straight. You are saying "political correctness" is the greatest threat to the US?

If it's just a case of people being thin-skinned, how is that a threat?

To me a greater threat is the way that those who voiced dissent to the War were treated. The lenghts the decider and his cronies have gone through to stifle dissenting opinion is appaling. Debate is not even welcome. That's a greater threat to the American way of life.

The decider and Arnold shouldn't be so "thin-skinned" that people are criticizing their choice of words, right?

[Larry the Legend]

Amen brother!!

[NashvilleBilliken]

No, Ace...I don't think politcal correctness is the biggest threat facing us. Jeez. I guess I shouldn't have brought it up. It's just something I say; that I feel DOES have some truth to it. We spend too much time worrying about stupid things we shouldn't worry about. Getting all wrapped up on certain details and forgetting the big picture or the real problem. What's polictially correct for one counrty or culture, another finds ridiculously dumb. PC is all in the eyes of the beholder and the US spends WAY too much time with it.

As I said above, I don't want to offend people. I don't want to alienate people. But when you become too PC, you also lose your sense of induviduality...which is what make the USA the greatest country in the world.

[Pistol]

Wow- Canadian and Big J, I'm amazed at what I'm reading. First off, Native Americans from around Illinois are not "honored" by the Chief Illiniwek mascot. I'm sure it's just what they want to be honored by- a white kid of European descent wearing full head dress, leather, and moccasins and performing some watered-down interpretation of a war dance. It completely mocks the heritage of people who have been virtually eradicated from the continent. No one is honored by that.

As for the Fighting Irish, there is a HUGE difference that no one seems to notice when they make this ignorant comparison: the Irish mascot was self-imposed by the Irish Catholics that controlled the school. Native Americans had no say whatsoever in the naming of mascots at any institution in the country or any pro sports team.

I'm also under the impression that the Fighting Illini name isn't affected for the time being, just the cartoonish Chief mascot.

[Pistol]

Here we go- give something the "Liberal" tag to try and make it sound unappealing. People are just trying to be reasonable. I don't think it has to do with taking life too seriously, and I think a lot of people do care that sports teams have Indian mascots. Personally, if I were a descendant of one of the North American tribes today and saw people using my tribe's name for fun, I probably wouldn't like it. What's left of these tribes survived what was essentially genocide, and that's something I doubt anyone on this board has had to deal with.

[Pistol]

In my honest opinion,

It seems to me that whenever people genuinely try to change and improve our society- changing the way we speak and act in order to encompass everyone living in our borders- there is a backlash of people who automatically roll their eyes and shout that they are fed up with "Political Correctness." I'm personally not a fan of being PC in every word that is spoken, but I think people are too quick to label things as PC and "Liberal" mumbo-jumbo. If there is a group that is seriously offended by something, why is it a problem to change that? Why are we so attached to certain customs that could be construed as offensive, hurtful, or wrong? There are plenty of "traditions" that are just not right, regardless of how long they have been going on. A person could justify anything just by calling it a tradition and saying that it's been going on for a long time.

Michael Richards' actions, for example, may not have caused any physical harm to anyone. I think people realized that it was just some high-strung comedian who snapped and acted out of line. Naturally, his actions are going to be followed by a public outcry because you really shouldn't get away with what he said. It's 2007, and we should know better. Then the backlash is followed by another backlash saying that everyone is too politically correct, and freedom of speech, blah, blah, blah.

The point is that these things can and should be changed. Instead of trying to label everything as Liberal or Conservative or Politically Correct or whatever else, we should find the core of the problem and fix it. The details create the big picture, and it's impossible to fix the big picture all at once. The language and imagery associated with Indian mascots shouldn't be used because it marginalizes one ethnicity in America. Nashville, I agree with you when you say it is the greatest country in the world, but we can't just oversimplify everything by saying that this is the greatest country in the world, so we can do whatever we want to one another. You can be an individual and express yourself without offending anyone- I don't see how those go hand in hand. We still have a long way to go.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

I just think it is completely ridiculous for someone to get that worked up and offended by a mascot.

[moytoy12]

I think that's an understandable, albeit ignorant, position.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Pistol, I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I posted my feelings on this particular issue above. I don't feel this is an instance of being too PC. I was merely responding to Larry's PC comment independently of this subject.

And what's wrong with offending somebody...seriously? I mean, i am offended on this board every single day by the comments made about our team. But such is life. There is a difference between racism and bigotry, and being PC. People aren't dumb. If I say or do something that people don't like, then those people can choose not to be around me, not support me, and make my life irrelevant. This is completely different that saying you can't drink from the same water fountain as me due to the color of your skin.

My point is people should stop focusing on petty BS. If I call somebody a girly man, the first thought in your mind shouldn't be, that guy is a bigot. It should be, why did he say that. Is there truth to what is says? And finally, should I continue to listen to this guy or is he just an idiot....based on the message, not the words.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

Thats fine. I just think it is completely ridiculous to get worked up over a mascot and I will stand by that. I respect your position, albeit an oversensitive nancy position.

[moytoy12]

Of course you think it's ridiculous, it has zero impact on you.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

What harm does dressing someone up as an Indian cause anyone? Dress someone up as an Unteroffizier and have him dance around the court, my family could give two shits.

[Pistol]

I don't see it as petty BS when this is the mindset of a large portion of Americans. That's the whole point I'm trying to make: racism and bigotry are NOT petty BS. They are huge, huge problems and people just brush them off and say who cares.

You're right- people aren't dumb. So why are they acting and speaking like they are? We should have enough education to realize that it is not okay to constantly marginalize ethnic groups and then act like it doesn't matter.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

I am still unsure how dressing a college kid up like an Indian shows racism and bigotry.

[Pistol]

You say it's just a mascot, but when it causes such heated opposition, it becomes more than a mascot. There are huge groups of individuals claiming they are offended by it, but people trivialize it and say it's just a mascot. It's a symbol for much more. So are all the Native Americans who don't like it and the people who support their position over-sensitive nancies? Why would Illinois want to use an over-sensitive nancy as its mascot, then? I also wouldn't call that an over-sensitive nancy position to a group (Native Americans in general) that were nearly eradicated by mass genocide. Colonists made colossal mistakes when settling the continent and murdering Indians; the least people can do today, especially those under the name of a reputable academic institution, is recognize the wrongs done in the past and re-name their sports teams. That should be a minimal gesture compared to the history behind it.

[Pistol]

It's essentially the same practice as blackface stage acting. I think that's pretty obvious racism. It's mockery of another ethnic group, and not "honor."

[NashvilleBilliken]

Ok, I'm not really sure what we're talking about anymore. I haven't said I disagree with you regarding the Chief. I'm saying there is a big difference between a school going on national tv several times a week and degrading (according to the native american community) an important part of a culture in front of millions of people, and somebody making a remark that is deemed "politically incorrect". It is a persons chioce to use the words and phrases they wish, and they should deal with the consquenses. What concerns me is that this society has become so wrapped up in WORDS that it is becoming inhibitive.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

Dressing a guy up like a Mexican and having him dance around with a lawnmower would be offensive. I just think people are overreacting. Its not like they are having some guy dressed up like an Indian running around drinking booze, gambling, and smoking a pipe.

[BillikenTX]

Larry go look at the activity of this board after the GW win, then compare to after this last loss to the conference co-leader. The same group come here after losses and light up the board, but when they win nowhere. I just think everyone's theory is lets fire Brad and then the next guy we bring in will turn it around and they post this great idea on here, why don't you e-mail Cheryl? Why don't you go to a Billiken Club meeting? If your ideas are so well thought out and are fool proof don' be afraid to hide behind the computer screen, go make your intelligent idea to someone who can make it a reality, instead of re-writing the same thing 100 times on here. So we then post topics about this stuff which we had to create a complete separate board for in the past b/c this stuff was getting out of control, hence the creation of the off-topic/season board. You have every right to debate this topic, why not bring it to the postdispatch or bernie's box. Last I checked we have a few more conference games, a conference tournament, and possibly NIT games remaining, we also have a spring signing period and you can scroll down VTIME has posted countless threads on prospects.

[Pistol]

Nashville, we seem to be on the same side of the fence with the Chief. The other problem I have is that I think people are trying to take all meaning out of words. Words are important. George Bush mispronounces plenty of words, and he takes a ton of heat for all the words he says, no matter how insignificant (Nuke-U-Lar) or important his words are. I just don't like saying "it's just words" or "political correctness is bringing our country down," and that's the kind of stuff you're saying.

[FromGreeceWithLove]

Pistol, I think the line that sums up my position is "you just don't get it." I don't understand how someone could honestly care what an athletic team decides to use as their mascot, but that is just me. I do care if people honestly feel offended by something, I just don't see how having an Indian for a mascot is offensive. Like I said, that is just me and it may be completely ignorant to feel that way. Sorry if I offended anyone by taking this subject matter lightly, but like I said I dont get it. Pistol, I'm from Texas...BANG,BANG,BANG...

[moytoy12]

I don't understand how you are in a position to say that an American Indian mascot is offensive or not.

It may be trivial to you; however, it has real consequences on a day-to-day level. It perpetuates the uninformed view that the mainstream has of indians. When this mainstream includes congress and congress controls many aspects of governance of federally recognized indian tribes, then there becomes a disconnect between the trustee and the beneficiary (a long since legally established relationship between federally recognized tribes and the government). When the trustee is entrusted with the management of billions of dollars worth of assets for a group of people that most of society thinks plays dress up and throws spears, well, the trustee often isn't held accountable for its mismanagement of these assets. It has a practical effect on the day-to-day lives of people.