Thoughts

[Canadian]

If you wouldn't mind, please give a little more. Seems that 99% of my posts people agree with. hmmmm.

hmmmm skip. you feel threatened or somethin?

I know this board is your life, and outside of it, you may be kind of a nobody, but does that give you any right to insult my basketball knowledge when you have no idea who I am, where I come from, etc? I didn't think so but thanks for trying.

I'm here to talk about SLU, not waste my time with arrogant "message board posters."

[NashvilleBilliken]

Speaking of TH, you gotta admit that UNC was probably Ian's best game of the season. He also had a great game against them last year. I certainly think Ian is trying and working hard...you just don't get these numbers at this level of ball unless you do. However, I think it is fair to say that Ian can reach another level that we don't see day in and day out. If Ian played as hard as he did against UNC all the time, he would undoubtedly be a draft pick this summer.

[Canadian]

That is what I've been trying to say! But everyone wants to twist my words around.

[cheeseman]

Skippy - instead of just calling names, why don't you try to add something to a post. Believe it or not, your comments of - you are just stupid - is not helpful.

[slu72]

I'll get blasted again for being a UB basher, but it's part of UB's job to get IV motivated. If sitting him down for lack of effort is the way to do it...do it. He certainly showed up for the UNC game. Why, because there were probably 20 NBA scouts in the seats, on TV, his parents in attendance, and the Psycho guy. It's in him., but it's between him and UB to reach an understanding it's important it be there every night. Every game from here on out for him is against UNC if he wants even a sniff from the NBA. But from those at the games, it sure sounds on the radio that he is just not getting a lot of touches. If that's the case, we've got to hope TL, KL, and DM start lighting it up from the outside. If that happens then maybe this season won't be the disaster it looked like it was going to be last week. The bench...face it, we don't have a bench. JJ...just say goodbye...what a waste of a physical gift. DB where have you gone? We want last year's version back, it wasn't the greatest but a hell of a lot better than this year's model.

[Billiken Rich]

eom

[Canadian]

Hmmm, it seems to be typical protocal for posters on this board not to respond to a post, but rather when they disagree, just call the person "a fool, or stupid"

Do you and skip make out??

But anyway, why am I fool exactly? Please explain what led to this conclusion that I am a fool. Is it something about the way I type? Maybe my font is foolish? I just don't know.

please help me out here billiken rich, you are clearly smarter then me.

[nostatic]

To compare how IV played against NC vs. every other opponent on our schedule is just silly.

You didn't see NC with 2 or 3 players around IV every time he touched the ball. They may be the most athletic team in the country. They played their normal man to man, the overall emphasis was not "Stop IV". Therefore, he had more opportunities to catch the ball, and more room to manuever.

Everytime someone describes a game recently, it's "the opponents had 2 or 3 players around IV in the zone everytime he touched the ball".

These teams are showing IV the ultimate respect. They're saying "IV can beat us, he must be contained".

Does that mean he is doing everything he can to contribute? -- I have no idea, I haven't seen a game. But to come on this board and say that he is not giving a good effort, that he should be doing more. I'm sure the MO State fans blasted Blake after our game -- he should have done more, why didn't he . . . At some point you have to give credit to the opponents and their defense.

You have a chance to beat SLU if you contain/neutralize IV. If you don't do this, chances of winning are slim. That's the message that's being sent by our opponents.

We had a good run with UB last week, now it sounds like we are moving on to a new whipping boy.

It's not always black and white (IV only had 4 rebounds -- means he didn't try hard enough)

[Billikan]

With respect, as a person who lived and died as a three point shooter, I can tell you that taping together two fingers on your shooting hand is not a MINOR adjustment!

[Canadian]

Billikan,

Wow!!!! First you bang inside with the big boys as a center stating "I've been down there, and I've had guys hang all over me" just as IV had, now you live and die as a 3 point shooter!!!

Is there anything you didn't do!? Where did you play college ball, and I'm assuming you were a lottery pick in the NBA. With your talent, you must have taught Dirk the fine art of shooting as a big man!

You must have been one hell of a player back in your day since you know everything to know about every position. Well naturally, since you've played every position at the collegiate, even professional level.

While you are at it, why don't you solve the global warming problem, settle peace in the middle east, put a man on Mars, develop an alternative fuel and water source, and maybe learn how to cure cancer. I'm sure you can do it.

[Billiken Rich]

Than even I do, which is saying something. Being a big tall stiff, personally, I watch our post play (mostly Ian by his lonesome) more often than not. Saying Ian isn't trying is wrong. Call him ineffective perhaps but not lazy. You are a fool.

[cheeseman]

If you have not seen any games then how can you contradict what others who have seen the games posted opinions. I think IV is playing hard - no one can say differently if you saw his disgust towards the end of the Duke's game when he went to the floor on a loose ball. My point is that playing hard and playing hard and succeeding are two different things. Maybe the issue is not him but how the offensive scheme is set up. Look at my post above - I specifically said that he seems to be playing farther out from the basket and that when he does step out to defend a man who has lost his defender, it really opens us up in the paint for disaster since nobody seems to be filling that void. He is not getting the results of the all conf. player preseason pick he was. Why - I am not sure but I do know that he can not keep avg. 7 pts a game and 4 rebounds. What is confusing about this sagging defense all over him thing is how can they be bottling him up and altering his shot and he is not getting fouled. Last night he went to the line 4 times - he missed his first two FTS then hit one of the next two in the first half and then towards the end of the game he went to the line twice and hit all four. If he does not hit those 4 FTs he ends up with 7 pts. All I am pointing out is whatever he is doing is not working offensively whether it is him or the scheme. His rebounding has not been good lately - he can not continue to get 4 rebounds a game. We are being beat to the ball lately and either he has to figure out how to dominate inside or once again we have to devise a scheme to help him out. So making excuses is fine for you but it is not a solution.

[slufanskip]

Why? did you want to watch?

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[Billiken Rich]

eom

[Billikan]

I did play and I played a lot of ball from high school all the way through travelling teams after college in the military. I played against D 1 players at every level and my highest total of 3 pointers hit in one game is 9. I was no All American! I did play forward and I have been forced to play inside where I got beat up big time.

Did you ever play?

[slufanskip]

Figures you would chime in ... whenever I counter your posts with facts, you don't come back to them. You post opinions as facts and they are often wrong. I mathmatically showed you were wrong and you still couldn't admit it, you just avoid it.

So ... now I will get to why I think he has little clue of what goes on in a basketball game ... I didn't call him stupid though. So again, you are wrong.

IV has regressed more than any other basketball player I have seen in my life. .... that statement alone would indicate you haven't seen much baskeball.

Ian's numbers. 2006 32.2mpg, 13.9ppg, 7.4rpg, 1.9bpg

2007 29.8mpg, 12.0ppg, 8.7rpg, 2.7bpg

He is also shooting worse from the line and from the field this year. If you gave him the same percentages he would be averaging about the same ppg. I doubt he is missing shots due to lack of effort. His rebounds are up over 1 per game, I doubt that is due to lack of effort, He is averaging almost 1 block per game more than last year, again, I doubt that is due to lack of effort. If you take into account he is playing almost 10% fewer minutes this year than last the numbers in scoring are even closer and the improvement in rebounding and blocks are even greater per minute played.

Do you still wonder why it would seem to me that you had seen very, very little D1 basketball in your life. The facts bear out that your statement was incredibly far off base, unless as I assumed you were someone who had just not seen very much basketball. I was assuming it was from lack of experience. Not that you just blabbed out crap that was wrong even though you knew it was wrong.

Cheese ... see how you back up your opinion with facts. Especially when you present them as facts. When I am just giving my opinion, I sate imo ... which means in my opinion, which would suggest it is just that an opinion, not fact.

Also Canadian ... your statement that 99% of the board agrees with you .... is that factual, or just an opinion. It seems to me you may be a little off on your percentages. Maybe, that's it, you tend to exagerate ... which makes your statements actually right. I should have known what you meant to say was Ian is not playing like a center who is going to make it in the NBA. He is shooting much worse than last year ... he has also been very lucky, as he is blocking more shots and grabbing more rebounds while giving less effort. Hmmm, I wonder if he wants to go to Vegas. Maybe some of that luck will rub off.

Smooches to you Rich.

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[slufanskip]

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[NH]

comparing him to baniak is not really fair because IV had gotten better every year till now Baniak just got worse every year

[cheeseman]

Skip the problem with relying only on averages is like when the you ask the guy who has one foot in hot water and one in cold water how he feels he says on average good. Go back and read my posts - I never said Ian was not trying in fact I even said I think he is but in the last 4 games, he has 18 rebounds that is 4.5 per game not 8.7. Also, if you read my posts you will see that I have primarily referenced the most recent games not the ones including against Quincy, Western IL, and UMSL. My comments were specific to the last 4 games - the ones that mean the most. You make no comments to mine regarding how he is playing farther away from the basket the last few games - that is true. My other comment was about how he is not playing up to what you would have expected from the Conference Player of the Year preseason pick - even your stats show that he is at best the same as last year and would you not have expected more. Finally, the matter you keep refering too about how you showed me that I was wrong mathematically and I will not admit it - I had tried to explain to you that while field goal % is a total of all the shots you took and made that you can not simply apply it across the board. In other words, Tommie's % is far more difficult to achieve then Ians but they are very close statistically speaking but you can not tell me that Ian is having the same kind of offensive year as Tommie. You also neglected to point out Ian is shooting 56.5% from the FT line this year as opposed to last year's 72.5%. You see - stats are fine to a point but sooner or later you have to apply it to what is actually happening on the floor which you do not. Apparently you think you have seen gads of D1 ball that makes you an expert - sorry from where I sit you may or may not have seen more than me but either way it certainly hasn't helped you any.

[slufanskip]

first off ... on this thread I wasn't refering to you, until you jumped in.

Previously ... the discussion was that Ian should make at least 50% of the shots he's fouled on. I said a good center hits about 55-60%. SO you are saying he should hit the same percentage on shot's that he is fouled on as he does on shots he's not. Sorry, that is just wrong. You also gave a figure that he had made on shots that he was fouled on in that particular game it was wrong. It mathmatically couldn't have happened and I laid it out for you. I never said he should shoot better or worse than Tommie or anyone else. I gave a figure a good center should hit. If I was refering to everyone across the board, your statement he should make at leadt 50% of the shots he is fouled on would seem even more ridiculous, but I didn't compare it to everyone ... I compared it to good centers. And you did say he should hit at least 50% of the shots he is fouled on. Do you still think that? You also did give a number which you claimed he shot that day, which was again impossible.

I have said in every post Ian is not shooting as well ... from the line and from the field. In fact I said his numbers being down in scoring weren't due to his lack of being agressive it was due to his poor shooting percentage and that still stands true today.

Next, I agree that his rebounding totals the last few games has been poor. What I was refering to in this thread was one person (and I apologize, I didn't make it clear) who said that Ian had regressed more than any player he had ever seen. That is either a ridiculous statement ... or the poster must not have seen much D1 ball. I assumed he wasn't just making silly statements so he must not have seen much ball. Ian is about on par with last year. Down in some areas and up in others. I don't see how that can be regressing more than any player a person has ever seen, unless of course, you haven't seen many players.

Then you came on and claimed I shouldn't call him stupid ... I didn't. You should reread the thread and see who started calling who names.

I think the reason people are dissapointed in Ian is that the expectations are to high. To insinuate that because he declared for the draft and wanted to see how he compared, that it is somehow his fault. I also think it is silly to say he isn't trying. Ian has made great strides throughout his Billiken career, why would he go to an NBA camp ... find out he wasn't good enough to be drafted and had alot of work to do ... and then quit trying. Doesn't make sense. Sorry, but I consider the Bills my team, and maybe it is a fault, but I get a little ... or alot defensive when their character is wrongly attacked. I honestly think Ian is just not as good as we may want him to be.

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[Quality Is Job 1]

>>You see - stats are fine to a point but sooner or later you have to apply it to what is actually happening on the floor.

The bottom line is this: 11-5 vs. 8-8. Ian Vouyoukas has not really regressed.

[Canadian]

And to think that we are better because of Ian is ludacris.

We are better because of TLs and LMs explosive improvement over last year.

[Sheltiedave]

Canadian, we might be watching a different set of games. As far as defensive rebounding, Luke has added a fair amount of muscle, and is holding even on the defensive boards when he does have good box out positioning. In no fashion is he able to outjump any decent PF, so his explosive growth is due to Ian tying up his normal man and a half, and the available floor rebounds making it to Luke, rather than Tommie.

There are methods to evaluating players above and beyond their normal stats. Trick defenses, such as a box and one, will show evidence of a single dominant force.

The fact other teams are now playing a 2-3, with the weakside tail cheating two steps toward Ian, means teams are rear/side facing Ian on every possession he gets in the paint. Surely a knowledgable fan such as you recognize this defense, and realize the burden of scoring will correspondingly shift to the good outside shooters. We lost our two cripple games because Tommie needed to be much more selfish than he was, Kevin being hurt.

I say this to stress that in some games Tommie just needs to go off -not a knock on how great he is playing. We need 40 points a game out of Ian and Tommie, or 55 points a game out of Ian, Tommie, and Kevin. Polk, Meyer, and Brown all have a tendancy to get shut down in our putrid offensive outputs. If we face zones for the rest of the season, Tommie and Kevin have to shoot us back to a man to man defense, because Luke cannot provide an entry pass into the paint in a 2-3 zone. We will lose any zone defense game that Tommie or Kevin do not have outstanding numbers. It is waht it is.

[Canadian]

When I said explosive, it was meant as an adjective describing the noun "improvement." (Enlgish class, 7th grade). I wasn't refering to Luke's offensive leaping ability or scoring ability. Luke has improved exponentially over last year on fundamentals and the "little things." Ian does not "try up his normal man and a half", rather its Luke who boxes out every single play.

The fact that Ian nor Brad can't adjust to a suffocating D such as St. Bonnies or Duquense is just an embaressment and further proves my point that while a good player, he's not the reason we are winning games. 2-3 defense have been in play since I started in 5th grade, you make adjustments to get the ball inside no matter what. We are winning games in spite of Ian's cataclysmic dropoff the past month.

So basically you are saying that Brad does not know how to adjust his offense against a stifling St. Bonnie 2-3 zone D? If that's the case, hmmmm.

[Quality Is Job 1]

>And to think that we are better because of Ian is ludacris.

>

>We are better because of TLs and LMs explosive improvement

>over last year.

I'm not sure it's correctly spelled, but "Ludacris" is a rapper. "Ludicrous" is an adjective meaning, "laughable because of obvious absurdity or incongruity." I believe you'll see next season that the idea that this team has the quality that it has because of Ian Vouyoukas. Yes, Tommie Liddell and Luke Meyer are better, but if Vouyoukas weren't drawing the brunt of defenses' attention, Meyer and Liddell would have a more challenging time. And that's not mentioning the impact the big man has on defense. Without Vouyoukas, this team would be around .500 at best.