jjray Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 I just don't get it with his 25 minutes. Why??? I know Brad gives minutes to the players who defend but is Varner's defense actually that stellar. Personally, I think Justin J. is a better defender (even in the post). Then there is the matter of 0-5 from the field with 0-4 from 3 point land to go along with 0-2 from the freethrow line (I think he missed the front end of a 1-1 twice in the second half). Varner launching 3s in the second half at a time when we are crawling back into the game and Reggie was red hot hurts, it hurts bad. Why doesn't Varner pay in minutes for the abysmal offensive performance to go with average defense??? This guy just frustrates me to no end. Had to vent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 jjray, You and I are wondering the same thing. Perhaps, we'll see some adjustments in this regard starting with Butler next Saturday??? One can only hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 I wish I knew. It's a good principle to reward your best practice players with PT but I think it's an even better principle to play a Division 1 player (Johnson) more than a Division 2 player (Varner). Brad's only in his 2nd year. I think he'll learn over time that a rule shouldn't be applied uniformly to every situation and every player. Tony Larussa, OTOH, is too old to change :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 i am not a varner fan, however, you have to admit that ross lays it out there. i remember a couple of big offensive rebounds he got last nite and a steal as well. but then he threw it away with a missed layup or two misses on the front end of one and one's. so in short, i understand your pain and feel it as well. still the fact is, imo ross is closer to giving us results than justin is. and that hurts me to say since justin imo is the closest thing to the solution to our inside woes that we have. if justin would just play with the enthusiasm of ross, maybe all this would take care of itself. i am sure the coaches want justin to succeed, but it isnt going to happen until justin decides to play with the right attitude and effort everyday. not just for 11 minutes as the third inside sub off the bench. he isnt going to win time there. he has to earn it doing the right thing the rest of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Every player is different and should be handled accordingly to paraphrase John Wooden. Wooden put his best players on the floor, not his best practice players. Red Auberbach allowed Bill Russell to sit out practices on a number of occasions. I'm not asking that Brad do a 180 on the importance of practice, but he has to understand that not all kids are going to be good practice players. That doesn't mean you should start Division 2 kids instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 3 star, i dont know this because i have never asked brad this. but the next chance i do at a billiken club meeting i am betting he gets put on the spot about it if justin and darren arent playing more. it is my guess that brad is looking long term. i bet you he goes home at night dying because he isnt able to play justin and darren more. they are the kind of athletes he has been telling us about since he took over. but we know he demands focus, hustle, effort and thinking basketball players 100% of the time. again, i dont know this, but i am betting if i was coaching in his shoes, i am thinking my alternatives are: 1. let the talent play and whatever you get out of it great. it has to be better than what we are getting with varner and hunt. maybe they eventually come around to his style of play but at least we get the added athleticism and skills immediately. 2. you give the time to those giving the effort that you have been demanding in practice day in and day out. the belief is that playing time is the one motivating factor he can readily control to get them to come around. top college athletes are motivated by their want to play. and if the only way they can play is to do things his way, eventually they break and play his way. long term coach is the winner assuming they do break their current habits and begin to play brad soderberg way. the puzzling part is that we are in the second season with justin and he still hasnt come around? that is what bothers me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 well when we get bill russell, kareem, keith wilkes and bill walton on the team let me know. seriously, i think that is the fault in your thinking. he doesnt have anyone except maybe bryant, that is at the skill level that is that overwhelming. and he knows to win big, he needs that supreme effort all the time from everyone. i am a big believer in the phrase, "you will play like you practice". you cant just turn it on for the game. of course if you are a far superior player, that 89% effort might be good enough to dominate a game. but while i think justin johnson is a much better athlete than ross varner, the truth is it isnt that much better that he can get away with half efforts and occassional burst of energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 "you give the time to those giving the effort that you have been demanding in practice day in and day out. the belief is that playing time is the one motivating factor he can readily control to get them to come around" If we had an abundance of talent, I would consent to this. But not when the alternatives are Ross Varner and Phillip Hunt. Next year when the "worst" alternatives are Clarke and JJ, Brad can afford to be more rigid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 i think that is what brad is talking about with the quote you put on the other string. he is probably close to doing just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 broy, from what I see, JJ has made significant improvement from where he was a year ago. It's just that he has to improve even more and for longer periods of time. But he is definitely progressing (sort of tells you how far behind he was when comapred to the other 2002-2003 bigs, thus his redshirt year). It will be interesting to see where the playing time is going on Feb 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 The dilemma is ...... do you give significant minutes to your most productive day-in / day-out practice players, or do you give those minutes to somewhat productive practice players with better upside potential? The dilemma is ...... do you stop demanding 100% effort from every player for every practice minute? The dilemma is ..... do you stop telling all 13 of your players that game minutes depends on how well you practice? The dilemma is ..... do you have team discipline, team standards and team expectations, or do all 13 players pick their own pace. My guess, you go with your best practice players and your high standards. At the same time you keep pushing, keep prodding, keep being demanding of, those inexperienced but improving young athletic players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stchuckbilliken Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 tseugnekillib, I appreciate your dilemma matrix. But the biggest responsiblity a coach has is to give his team a chance to win. That is putting players on the floor who can compete. In regards to JJ, having coached for 15 years not all players are practice players. Some are motivated in different ways. JJ may not play that hard in practice but watching him during the games he seems to hustle and play hard while on the court. This is all Brad should ask of a player is to give 100% on the court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 coach, what did you do with the other players that gave both 100% in practice and 100% on the court? i agree, the best is yet to come! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 I'm late getting into this ... but I am 100% in agreement with Brad JJ is a freshman ... how can he demand more for the next 4 years if he doesn't demand it now. He can't say you earn playing time by giving your heart and soul in practice ... and then play him anyway when he doesn't. I would disagree though with his firm sit the rest of the half rule with the second foul. That is not an effort thing ... sometimes guys foul when giving their best and sometimes there are bad calls. That is a game management issue and should be a guideline. For example Reggie did not make a mistake if the 2nd foul was a bad call ... but yet he gets no chance to perform ... and we needed him desperately. If the fouls were lack of effort ... then I agree with sitting him. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjray Posted December 21, 2003 Author Share Posted December 21, 2003 I like this quote from 3Star: >>I think he'll learn over time that a rule shouldn't be applied uniformly to every situation and every player.<< The goal is always the best team on the court as possible. The rule demanding 100% effort in practice from the players is a good one (because players tend to play as they practice) but so is the rule that you put the 5 best players on the court who, as a whole, give the team the best chance to win. Neither rule can be rigidly applied as it has to be tempered by the overriding principle that the coach make decisions that result in the best team on the court as possible. How long is Brad going to penalize the team in order to make a point with JJ? This is the senior year for Fish and Sloan. Do you flush their senior years down the tube just to make a point with your freshman power forward. My answer would be to try and recruit over him at his position if you as the coach are unhappy with his effort in practice but don't currently possess a palatable alternative on the roster. There is more than one way to get your point across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 It's obvious that Justin Johnson is a more gifted basketball player than Ross Varner, but Ross is a smarter player and more apt to go all out all the time than JJ. The issue really comes down to maturity. There's still pressure on Brad Soderberg to win. If I can again state the obvious, a team is more likely to win if it plays its more talented players more than its less talented players. But Brad believes players should play a certain way in practice to be more successful in games. I don't doubt him on that, but what I do question is his method of achieving that. As a teacher, I know that people not only have different personalities but also have different learning styles. (What teachers have is a philosophy of education.) Justin is the type of player who does well on tests (analogous to games), but Brad is the type of coach who weighs homework (analogous to practice) very heavily in the overall grade and insists that doing well on the homework will lead to doing well on tests. But Justin is not motivated for homework right now. Brad has been putting off administering the test because Justin hasn't been completing the homework. Well perhaps a change of approach may be in order for this particular "student." Brad should give Justin the test that he isn't ready for but thinks he can pass (i.e., let him get significant playing time in a game regardless of his overall effort in practice), and then when he flunks, Brad will be able to convince Justin that he needs to change his approach. However, if Justin tests well despite not doing the homework (analogous to playing well despite his performances in practice), then Brad may have to adjust for the individual. Teachers are supposed to educate; do they insist on effort or mastery? Brad, play Justin and find out if he's the type of player who excels in games despite going through the motions in practice. You may have to make an exception for him (but not the others, unless you change your "philosophy of education," which is something that should be assessed and reassessed constantly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 what you see from justin is spurts. he goes hard then he coasts once or twice down the floor and most times that doesnt figure into things. however occasionally it does and then he is sticking out like a sore thumb. now if he was in the habit of going all out all the time, this wouldnt happen. you cannot just turn it on. and if you were a good coach in your 15 years, you would know that. you play like you practice. you cant just turn it on and expect to be at ramming speed all the time if you arent used to doing that. you can do it in spurts, but you wont maintain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 the problem is that i have played with superior athletes that can "dog it" and still out play everyone. what ends up happening though is that those around that player will also begin to lower their effort and they cant afford to do it then you really got a mess. i dont pretend to have the answers. if i did, i would be a college coach and not chasing mortgage business. i think we know we got a ace, what we gotta hope for is that coach brad figures out the best way to play that card and still maintain his overall hand. i defer to our coach. hey, we are still in good shape. let's play on and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I have focused on Varner the last couple games, and I am astounded by how much he hurts us. There are two good things I have noticed from Ross: he uses his body well do get good defensive and rebounding position. Of course, he is so slow and athletically limited, that he even though he has defensive position, the offensive player can shoot an uncontested shot right over him or make a spin move to go right around him. When rebouding, his limitations are even more evident. I counted at least five times in the last two games when Ross had a player blocked out but was too slow to beat him or another player to a ball that landed right in front of him. He is a power forward, yet if he gets the ball in the paint there is almost no chance of him scoring. On defense, he has zero chance of ever blocking a shot. He has been badly beaten on in-bounds plays several times this season (including in the SMS game). If Brad continues to play Ross more than 10 minutes per game, then I will join the small group of fans who are beginning to question aspects of Brad's coaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Roy, you must be watching different games then me because I have been focusing on JJ and Ross, and I haven't seen Ross grab many nice rebounds (other than rebounds most high school post players would grab), and I haven't seen JJ coast for a single minute while he was on the floor. JJ has lost his player in transition a few times, but it wasn't due to lack of effort. We can blame a lot of our front court situation on Romar's poor recruiting of post players like Seyfert, Latimer, Kern, Hollins, and Varner; however, Brad must share some of the blame. Brad had all of last season to find two or three post players to play ahead of JJ and Varner. By signing a likely redshirt and a foreign player with initial eligibilty concerns, Brad limited his front court options during the first ten games. Hopefully, these decisions will play big dividends in the long-term, and we can all laugh about the days when Ross Varner was our backup center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 It's obvious that RV has limitations at the power forward position and I'm confident that SLU will be much better in the post next year and in the future. What is truly telling of our situation is that even considering Ross' PF limitations, after eight games he is SLU's third leading rebounder, while averaging only 22 minutes per game, and at 35% is one of our better 3-point shooters. While I don't recalling seeing it, RV does have one block to his credit. I anticipate JJ getting a few more minutes the balance of this season, plus IV will start to get some clock. But until these two freshmen get better, and until TF can stay out of foul troble, RV will still be getting nearly 20 minutes per game because he is the best we have this season. As the Budweiser commercial says, "True". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 saturday nite i remember two rebounds that ross just took away from the sms guys. he missed the layup on the first. got fouled on the second and then missed his front end of the one and one. the other was a loose ball he beat everyone to where again he got fouled and proceeded to miss the front end of a one and one again. maybe you are closing your eyes when ross is in the picture. he makes stuff happen, but then he "finishes" with airballs, missed layups, and missed foul shots. dont get me wrong, i am not a varner fan. but i will say his effort always shows. he just isnt good enough. as i have said a number of times this year, i think ross would be very effective in short bursts. he could come in as a sub giving a quick breather and throw his body around for a few moments, hit one of those 3's he makes occasionally, steal a rebound or pounce on a loose ball. get the troops fired up and then head back to the bench mission accomplished. he wouldnt play but about 12-15 minutes for me. but the 25-30 minutes games are painful. when he is in that long, imo it then exposes him for his main weakness, footspeed. and the opposing coach has time to then run his much better athletic player right at ross, and ross is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 everything that tseugnekillib says i agree with. the other players have to step up. why anyone is mad at ross is beyond me. he is doing his job the best he can. now the fact that jj wont play all out when in the game all the time, or frericks cant stay in the game because he is either winded or in foul trouble or that izik wont play bigger, those are legitimate b!tches. but ross is doing what he is asked to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I don't think anyone is criticizing Ross for being physically limited. We are criticizing Romar for recruiting him (twice), and Brad for playing him so much. I am in the group of fans who would rather see JJ or Izik in the game up front than Ross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tseugnekillib Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Nark, it sounds as if you don't understand, or refuse to accept, why RV has averaged 22 minutes thru the first eight games and you criticize Coach Soderberg for giving him those minutes. How would you have filled those post minutes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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