Vicious critics--Hard times in Raleigh

[DoctorB]

Just some off-season food for thought:

Nice article about the coach at NCState leaving town because he evidently got sick and tired of outrageous, mean-spirited, and arrogant criticism from many quarters about his inability to beat Duke or UNC. (see below) Especially read what one poster on an internet board said at the end of the article--very eerily reminds me of the SLU board.

It also sounds strangely familiar to the reports out of Bloomington about Mike Davis.

I bring it up just to say:

There is a lot of similar, abrasive, equally mean-spirited, attack mode dismemberment on this board.

I do very much appreciate the fact that it appears that Coach S. and the staff are able to ignore most if not all of this sort of criticism. Still, I would hate to see SLU, or any program, lose a good and decent coach just because they got sick of dealing with the spirit of take-no-prisoners critique. That spirit is very obvious on this board, though I tend to associate it with a small minority of posters. If the shoe fits, wear it.

What can be done about this, other than moderate the board? I say, posters, show a little respect (no -- actually a lot of respect) to the humans who you desire to skewer publicly. Some of this public humiliation makes The Scarlet Letter look like a Disney film.

sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/seth_davis/05/01/ncstate/index.html

[slu72]

I think I can say unequivocally if UB has the success Sandek did at NCS, there will be no carping on this board...we'd all be too giddy. I take it from the tone of your post that we can hurt people's feelings. This happens everyday in just about every facet of one's life, it's just not as public. I'm in a business where there is way more rejection than acceptance and a lot of criticism from idiots...very discouraging but one keeps going on. Luckily its not made public knowledge. I think coaches know they are in very visible positions and knocks are going to come from every corner every day...sports radio, boards, letters to the AD, etc. Can't feel too sorry for them, as this is the career they chose. How do you think UB's record would be tolerated by the likes of U-Conn, Kentucky, and UNC fans....he would have been tarred and feathered by now.

[SLUDrew]

"Some of this public humiliation makes The Scarlet Letter look like a Disney film"

Doctor, this may be a little dramatic don't you think?

Then again it would be completely understandable if any coach could not deal with the endless battering they must endure to coach any team in St. Louis. The fans and the media are ruthless in this town. (Sarcasm)

Come on Doctor, I really don't see what is so harsh about this board? It just seems to me that there are those who will support Brad no matter what, and those who don't think he is the second coming. I happen to fall into the latter group, but I certainly don't feel like there is any great vitriol regarding Coach as you seem to think. Just because we disagree with some of his coaching decisions doesn't mean we want him burned at the stake

[DoctorB]

Yes it is dramatic. Yes there is criticism in all walks of life.

But here is one big difference. When a person gets intensive and sometimes bitter criticisms about their job performance, I think it might help if it comes from a person who is knowledgeable about what is actually going on. For me, I prefer criticism from knowledgeable teachers who know what my day to day life is all about, and know what I do, and so on.

Criticism from outsiders to the field, or amateurs who really know nothing about what I do, or why I do it, just would irritate me.

Does that make sense? I am willing to admit I know almost nothing about the ins and outs of big-time recruiting, and how the SLU guys are doing it. Plus I have never actually done it myself. For those reasons, I would feel like a fool if I were to make reckless comments or criticisms on that subject. And the SLU staff would undoubtedly be correct to judge me a fool.

[NashvilleBilliken]

It's the offseason. We didn't end the season on a high note and that is just murder. Half the people bashin Brad are the same people who praised him during our win streak. The same people who want him fired are the ones who were giddy over the contract extension.

Bottom line is that people come here and say what's on their mind. I'd say 75% of the time, they don't even think about what they post...because there is no accountability. There's a few people who dig around and throw stuff back in your face. But for the most part, you can hate somebody today and love em tomorrow, and nobody is going to recognize the hipocracy. Such is cyberspace...

[SLUDrew]

Are you saying we should never criticize Soderberg because we are not division one basketball coaches? Are you kidding me?

Then do only ex-Presidents have the right to criticize a sitting President?

[cheeseman]

Doctor, unfortunately emails and the chat rooms have spawned a culture that is not very well mannered. When you enter a chat room you have to accept the rules or should I say no rules that guide its operation. The problem with trying to moderate this board is that no one is getting paid for the job so it is catch as catch can. So all I can say is if you venture in then be willing to accept the ill manners that can be displayed at times or else do not enter. As far as Brad is concerned, he is a public figure who is making a very good salary and he chose this profession. No one forced him to choose this path. What I can tell you is when the rancor reaches a level he can not stand then he will go the way of Bennett in WI. When will that come - who knows maybe never. As far as the NCState coach goes, he is probably as frustrated by his inability to beat UNC and Duke as his fans and apparently, he let his disappointment get the best of him.

[billfan4life]

Unlike the old NC State coach, I don't think anyone on this board is getting on Brad about him winning or loosing on the floor. Most people are angry and frustrated about the job he is doing on the recruiting trail. If Brad was coaching a High School team I would give him an A- but SLU is not a High School team. Part of his job is to recruit players and I don't think he is doing a good job. Some people say that SLU just doesn't have a good enough basketball tradition to recruit Top 100 players which is nonsense. A great example of this is Creighton. Creighton which is a school very similar to us doesn't have a great basketball history but for some reason signed the Top Juco player for the class of 2006 and signed a Top 5 point guard for the class of 2008. I understand that Brad can't get every superstar from St. Louis but if he is not going to attempt to get any of these players then I think we need to look for another coach. We should be all over guys like Brandenburg, Powell and Tyus but I guess were not good enough to recruit these guys. It almost makes me sick being a SLU fan to hear a guy like Brandenburg and Tyus not even getting an offer. Maybe I need to find a new team to cheer for because until Brad becomes a complete coach this University won't have a basketball tradition.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Not even attempt to get them?! I need to stop reading this stuff. I guess he didn't attempt to get the top two recruits in St. Louis last year? I guess he isn't even attempting to recruit Griffey or Suggs. I guess he didn't even attempt to recruit Knollmeyer or McGuire?

We have two guys on this board who can actually distinguish there ass from a hole in the wall when it comes to recruiting in OJ and Griffster. But people refuse to listen when they say Brad and his staff are working extrememly hard recruiting local players. I guess if we log on tomorrow and find that Brad extended an offer to OJ Mayo, everything is better.

I don't know about changing the team you root for, but I'd start with your sign on. Instead of Billfan4life, it can be BillFan4Lifeifwehaveatop20recruitingclass.

[SLUMS81]

I am willing to bet that if you asked Brad and the coaching staff, they would tell you that they are not satisfied with the final days of last season. They might also tell you that they are trying as hard as they can to recruit the best players willing to commit to SLU.

Brad has had personal experience coaching 'big time' in the Big Ten and has not forgotten what it feels like to coach a nationally ranked program and then not asked to continue as head coach. I don't think that negative comments on this message board bother him all that much.

[billfan4life]

Nashvillebilliken "But people refuse to listen when they say Brad and his staff are working extrememly hard recruiting local players"

Um....What about the class of 2006, didn't seem like he worked extremely hard there. Also I think you have your head up your a** about offering OJ Mayo. I never said anything about offering him and I think Brad would be stupid to even think about it. Could you please tell me who we should recruit then. Our last three recruits in my opinion havn't been good choices. We sign Obi in the spring and we are still wondering if he will ever recover from his torn ACL. Dustin who played as a high school center didn't shoot well from the three point line this year so he should fit in well with our other guards. And our most recent recruit Adam was told by Quin Snyder that he should go to prep school because he wasn't good enough for him is suppose to be our answers at the PF position. We have to special players in Tommie and Kevin and I am told by Nashville that Brad is working hard when our 2006 class seems pretty weak and Brad tells the papers that he has no backup plan after Stemler signs with Indiana. That kind of sad if you think he is working hard.

[Billsboys]

>

>Yes it is dramatic. Yes there is criticism in all walks of

>life.

>

>But here is one big difference. When a person gets

>intensive and sometimes bitter criticisms about their job

>performance, I think it might help if it comes from a person

>who is knowledgeable about what is actually going on. For

>me, I prefer criticism from knowledgeable teachers who know

>what my day to day life is all about, and know what I do,

>and so on.

>

>Criticism from outsiders to the field, or amateurs who

>really know nothing about what I do, or why I do it, just

>would irritate me.

>

>Does that make sense? I am willing to admit I know almost

>nothing about the ins and outs of big-time recruiting, and

>how the SLU guys are doing it. Plus I have never actually

>done it myself. For those reasons, I would feel like a fool

>if I were to make reckless comments or criticisms on that

>subject. And the SLU staff would undoubtedly be correct to

>judge me a fool.

Doc B,I would warn you to not agree with me on this. I have said this from day 1 and have been bashed for this. Being the only one on the board "To my knowledge" that has both played and coached D1 you are exactly right about people commenting on issues they have no clue about. Thanks for your support.

[Hardball]

"They might also tell you that they are trying as hard as they can to recruit the best players willing to commit to SLU."

This is why there are good recruiters and not so good recruiters. It is the job of the Head Coach and his staff to convince kids why St. Louis University is a great place to play. I can't really think of any reason why SLU should ever loose a recruit to Creighton. St. Louis vs.Omaha, NFL football, Major League Baseball, both play in an off site Arena, better education. Why would anyone choose Omaha over St. Louis? How does Altman get players from all over the US and we can't? It all comes down to the coach and how convincing he states his case. Most are probably choosing Altman over Soderberg. City-wise and our education reputation should be enough to beat Omaha going away.

So what is the difference?

There are more ways to skin a cat though. If you can't win the recruiting wars you better be one great talent evaluator. Here is were we find ourselves full circle. If BS can't win the recruiting wars and can't evaluate talent now what are our options?

[Tonka]

I can appreciate what the good doctor is saying, but that's the nature of sports. I appreciate what he is saying because in the last few years I tend to take things a little lighter than I used to, so I'm certainly not one of the hard critics of Coach. But, if we were to use this same philospohy, should we hold the media to the same standard? Should the people covering the Billikens who have not played or coached D1 not be able to report or criticize them? When the Billikens play their games they are playing in front of 12K, uh 10K, no 7K, okay 5K or so fans who paid good money to see them play. 99.9% of those fans don't have the knowledge of Coach or close to it. Many of these same fans pay money to support the athletic department. All that being said, should it not be fair to criticize the product on the floor. I don't think any D1 athlete or Coach comes into this gig thinking they would be immune from criticism. One could argue that the players don't get paid, aren't professional, and therefore shouldn't have to hear a lot of the crap. Another could argue a four year scholarship is worth a lot of money to play baseketball and that would not make them immune either.

Personally, I think there can be a place for it all. Criticism in sports is part of the whole game as a fan. Many of the people that criticize continue to support. Let's remember to take this board for what it is. It's a place for the fans to discuss the different aspects of Billiken basketball both good and bad. It's a place for the fans to discuss with other fans. Remember that. It's not like there is picketing going on in front of West Pine and it's not like this board is being broadcast over the evening news. You can't help a coach, a player, an athletic dept employee or the family member of a player may find their way on this board, but that's the nature of the beast.

Coach Brad makes a heck of a lot of money to be in his public figure role. While I will never agree with mean-spirited attacks, I think Brad knows to take things for what they are, or to get some thicker skin. There are many other places he can go where he would feel much more heat and in a much more public setting.

As far as the specific hard critics on this board, take them for who they are. Many are just expressing their frustration for wanting a good product. Not everything said is going to be good logic or warranted but everybody expresses themselves in different ways or what I may not think is proper can be completely proper in someone else's world.

[DoctorB]

>Are you saying we should never criticize Soderberg because

>we are not division one basketball coaches? Are you kidding me?

Is that what I am saying?? Come on, read the post. I just wonder why Americans in general (not just on this board) feel the need to be vicious and mean-spirited--critical without mercy.

Look at the media, CNN, Fox News, Jerry Springer. I guess we all just feel very, very insecure, and take it out by bashing the hell out of people, often times in complete ignorance. furthermore the media endorse that kind of behavior as edgy and in-your face. There are any number of bonehead on TV who get huge paychecks to denigrate and eviscerate their guests.

Does that seem fair to you? Does it seem morally right? Are you kidding me? Are you saying that none of this talk leaves you feeling the slightest bit unsettled, morally speaking? If it doesn't then that just provfes my point--it is now so much a part of our culture (disrespect, vicious diatribes) that we no longer notice it very much. It just does not register.

No, one does not need to be a Division I coach to have a view. I would say, however, that there are some fairly oblivious commentators on this board. Most literate participants know them for their tendencies well enough. And most people on here have a job, or profession. Outsiders can have opinions about how we perform our jobs, but we usually take them for what they are worth. We consider the sources, in other words.

[DoctorB]

But, if we were to use this same

>philospohy, should we hold the media to the same standard?

>Should the people covering the Billikens who have not played

>or coached D1 not be able to report or criticize them?

Again -- see my other post above. Criticism is fine it is just we have become so lame in our utter disrespect. Our public rhetoric (oops, sorry if that is too elitist or stacked for some of you) is in serious disrepair right now. In other words, this is just a symptom of a much bigger, much more troubling breakdown in public speech, public ways of conversation.

I believe a wise man once put it this way: "love your neighbor as yourself." Not much love on this board, what with all the name-calling and so on. Not much neighborliness.

Someone said it comes with the territory. What if you love sports but think the neighborhood has become too ratty and morally corrupt?

Also, there are a lot of ways to become an authority on a subject. One does not need to play or coach at Division I level to be an authority, but obviously that would be one great way to have authority. Also, one could play or even coach, and be thick-headed or even oblivious to most issues. The point is, we are all looking for authority, in sports, politics, religion, whatever. Everyone on here at one time or another is making a pitch for their own authority; they want people to take their opinions seriously. But when a person makes misinformed, or even outright ridiculous statements (especially when they do it over and over), obviously whatever authority they pretend to have becomes hogwash.

[slu72]

I'm not an automotive engineer ....but I know when I've bought a lemon. I'm not an architect, but I know what houses/buildings I like and don't. I'm not a college professor, but I know when I'm bored silly. None of us, except an earlier poster, has ever coached D1 hoops, but does it take John Wooden to know that a .500 record, no dances in 4 years, and a suspect recruiting class ain't gonna get you in the hall of fame. UB said when he was hired, "there's no reason SLU can't compete for a national championship." Uh....when is my question? Sure, if IV returns and the Bills win 17 straight, you bet we'll be cheering and glad handing Ol' Brad. Hell, most of the posts will be about can we keep him. Please let it happen....please. Until then he deserves the other side of the coin.....show us the money.

[Billsboys]

>I'm not an automotive engineer ....but I know when I've

>bought a lemon. I'm not an architect, but I know what

>houses/buildings I like and don't. I'm not a college

>professor, but I know when I'm bored silly. None of us,

>except an earlier poster, has ever coached D1 hoops, but

>does it take John Wooden to know that a .500 record, no

>dances in 4 years, and a suspect recruiting class ain't

>gonna get you in the hall of fame. UB said when he was

>hired, "there's no reason SLU can't compete for a national

>championship." Uh....when is my question? Sure, if IV

>returns and the Bills win 17 straight, you bet we'll be

>cheering and glad handing Ol' Brad. Hell, most of the posts

>will be about can we keep him. Please let it

>happen....please. Until then he deserves the other side of

>the coin.....show us the money.

You must of got that lemon over off of Arsenal!

[Tonka]

>In other words, this is just a symptom of a much bigger, much more troubling breakdown in public speech, public ways of conversation

I think that is a great point. I agree with that to some degree in and some instances, but I said something similar to what I am going to say now. I think some are so bored they find entertainment in getting others stirred up. This is a cheap form of entertainment for them. That being the case, that would probably fall under your disrespect point.

I think the nature of sports in general draws conflict. Many people like conflict and confrontation by nature and the anonymity of a message board gives them a "safe" and arguably "cowardly" way to express this. Then again, in sports 2 teams fight each other hard and more times than not shake each other's hands after.

I also believe some will take an opposing side just for the sake of it of being on the opposing side of an argument.

Most of what I just addressed covers some of the mean spirited posts, but I think those are somewhat minimal in relation to the total number of posts. I think there is more negative tone to most posts lately simply out of frustration as I said before and this board allows them to vent.

[Basketbill]

it is present in everything. In medicine, if a mother develops pre-eclampsia has seizures....some one did something wrong.

If someone has a surgery and has complications.....someone did someting wrong.......

If a coach loses out on a recruit, they screwed up.

While some point to this recruiting class as a bust, I say lets wait and see. I find it funny how some point to DM and AK as marginal recruits, yet point at a juco transfer to Creighton as an automatic godsend. The Juco classes have become weaker and weaker as more and more kids go the prep school route. What every other school does that is assumed to be great and we are doomed.

I forget who said it but saying Brad Soderberg did not try hard enough to recruit this year is just a lie. The man works his butt off. Quibble with the results but his effort is there. IN this respect he is no Charlie Spoonhour.

[Basketbill]

exactly what did this top five point guard for 2008 sign??

[slufanskip]

How do you know Adam was told he wasn't good enough so he should go to prep school?

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[slufanskip]

I'm not the one on the board claiming to be someone I'm not. You have less of a clue than 99% of the people on the board. If you've coached D1 sports, D1 coaching is very sad. Also why aren't you still coaching? Did you suck?

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[moytoy12]

"In other words, this is just a symptom of a much bigger, much more troubling breakdown in public speech, public ways of conversation."

In terms of channels versus message, one could argue that there has been no breakdown in public "ways" of conversation, but quite the opposite.

Public speech also seems to be a moving target, so to define it as a static concept while a populace grows and expresses itself in a variety of ways seems intuitively inappropriate.

I don't have time or history on my side, but when was public speech so crystallized? Is saying 87 years ago as opposed "four score and seven years ago" troubling? Is there some prior standard as to what public speech should be held?

[Billsboys]

>

>I'm not the one on the board claiming to be someone I'm not.

>You have less of a clue than 99% of the people on the board.

>If you've coached D1 sports, D1 coaching is very sad. Also

>why aren't you still coaching? Did you suck?

>

> Official Billikens.com sponsor of H.

>Waldman

Your laughable!