We're paying for earlier recruiting mistakes

[ACE]

Earlier I thought the power forward was our biggest weakness, but it is clearly perimeter shooting. I didn't get to tune in to Rammer until the second half and was shocked at how bad we were losing. Sounds like another team was packing it in and daring us to shoot from the outside. I've even seen this in wins against Xavier and Saint Bonaventure. We're very easy to defend. Some people don't like to hear it, but not signing Ahearn or somebody like him was a huge mistake. Clarke wasn't the answer. I don't care if a perimeter player has some defensive deficiencies, the 3-pointer is a huge part of college bball and we don't have anybody who can consistently do it. And with a talented big guy like Ian, we need a couple guys from the outside who can keep defenses honest.

With the exception of Ian, we have very little in the junior and senior classes. Yes, AD is a scrappy player who serves a role, but we are paying for recruiting mistakes in these classes. VN was a mistake - not a power forward. Having two unused scholarships instead of players who could be helping us is a mistake. The Ian, Tommie, Kevin core is very encouraging, but it's frustrating that they haven't been surrounded by a better supporting cast. We're so close, yet so far. This spring signing period is HUGE! Soderberg needs to come up big or he should start feeling the heat. A nucleus is in place, but we need to add some players to take it to another level. It would be a shame to see a talented player like Ian not get a chance to play in the Big Dance.

[billiken_roy]

i understand your thinking, but if kevin, anthony and luke only make 37% of their threes last night, ahearn's name doesnt even come up today. or if we have a power forward rebound and put back up say 6 of those misses and gets fouled on 4-5 of them to shoot say 8 free throws last night and makes 5 of them, we arent talking today.

i think our guards are just fine. i wonder why our guards though are standing around the three point circle not doing anything? the kevin lisch i know (trust me, we havent seen kevin lisch at slu yet) isnt primarily a stand up three point shooter. he is as much of a slasher and penetrator that ends up getting to the foul line 10 times a game and shoots 80-90% from the line. and because of that slashing skill, has the opportunity to make 3-4 threes a game as well. but we never see that.

the tommie liddell i know doesnt bring it across the half line and then pass to a wing and hide in the corner.

i never saw luke play in high school, but it is my understanding he was a poor man's version of kevin lisch. and the fact we have seen glimpses of him moving around the floor to create opportunities enough to know that probably is true.

a lot of this imo stems from this belief we can be successful going through ian first and foremost. i love ian, but st joes showed us what not having a plan "B" can do.

[jjray]

Dwayne started against RI and we got run out of the building to start the game. St. Joes was playing alot of zone. Why in the name of the lord would the coaching staff go into the locker room at half when we are down big and collectively decide that the answer was Dwayne Polk? 0-3 from three last night and on the season 6-41 (.146). What kind of run did St. J go on to start the 2nd half: 20-2? And they were in zone (I think) during that run in the 2nd half.

I don't get the strategy.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Can an offense be altered at this point in the season?

It seems that the opposition knows what SLU is going to do.

Some of the traditionally better teams in the A-10, like St. Joe's and Temple play those tough East Coast zones. If Ian Vouyoukas is completely surrounded, can something be done to run a different offense? Or is it too late this year?

And are players like Kevin Lisch, Tommie Liddell, and even Luke Meyer being held back by the offensive system in place? What happened to Danny Brown? He was hitting some 3's a while ago.

Frankly, I really don't care if SLU wins 50-48, as long as SLU wins. But even the defensive minded Billikens cannot win scoring 39 points.

[ACE]

Roy, all the players you are talking about are underclassmen and that supports my point. The recruiting mistakes that were made were in the junior and senior classes. If we had more talented upperclassman, the freshmen and sophomores wouldn't be expected to carry such a heavy load. In an ideal world, we wouldn't be relying on "glimpses" from Luke, we would be getting consistent production from an upperclassman.

[willie]

I'll give you a possible explanation for Polk. I don't believe this is true but Floyd Irons walks into Savvis late in the second half and takes a seat behind the Billiken bench. Brad sees him as he leaves the floor and looks at the score. Says to himself what do I have to lose lets give Polk a chance. Unfortunately the poor kid can't throw the ball in the ocean and every opponent knows this. I really don't know what you do with him because I do believe the offense runs better with him , but it's like playing 4 on 5.

[billiken_roy]

now that makes sense. thank you.

[Boschee_1]

I don't understand why SLU doesn't get more players from the St. Louis Area, and im not just talking high school. There are a good number of JUCO players that could drastically help them out. And why is Dwayne Polk's progress so slow, him and Curtis Muse were amazing in high school, and both... especially Muse are worthless now!

[Taj79]

... but in fairness, the seniors on this team were Soderberg's first recruiting class and while I don't remember the dates exactly, Romar left rather ubruptly giving Brad little if any time to do much with that class. That's why we see only Drejaj and Johnson left in that class. Drejaj was a late qualifier if I remember correctly and Johnson had committed to Kansas State but they de-offered to concentrate on guard recruitment. JJ is a fourth year junior so he should be a senior. The offering and acceptance of VN is questionable at best but that's hindsight right now. He won't be the first or last recruit to not pan out. And a part of all this, in my opinion, was Romar's percahnt for going for the home run recruit with no backup plan in place.

So the junior class is Ian and Husak with Bryce being a third year sophomore. The others in here I guess would have been Bryant and Frericks but they only had two years each and done. We had to get some sort of fix in and that was the temporary answer. I think we'd all agree that such a course of action was needed at the time. Sacrifice the future and concentrate on the now. Nine wins says again ... ooohhh, bad move.

So the real meat of the Soderberg era is the right here and now. The sophomores and freshmen. While I think we are okay in some areas (KL, TL, LM, DB) there are other areas that look questionable as well (DP, jury out on Obi). The really bad news is that with the deficiencies we're seeing now (lack of outside shooting) and the options signed on for next year (DM), if all planets don't align, we have to make consdierable hay as it is Ian's senior year (if he returns????).

I know nothing about Ian leaving other than it happens. Kids go pro. And others transfer. And some flunk out. The problem is that while the icons of college ball can reload (UConn, Duke, UNC) we, sadly, cannot. We haven't recovered from the high that was Hughes.

It is tough love to be a Billiken fan.

[Battlecat455]

I think your analysis is right on target. I do believe that the perimeter shooting of the frosh and sophs can and will improve in the coming years. I don't really recall how well Clagget and Highmark shot at similiar points in thir careers. It's not too surprising to me that a team largely relying on Freshmen and sophomores is wildly erratic in it's play. It is extremely frustrating to watch. I was beside myself last night.

[courtside]

Roy...this is exactly what has been discussed over and over

There is a HUGE difference/jump from high school to college ball. VERY few kids out there are immediate impact Frosh. They are the exception, not the norm. Expectations for year one of the two frosh were ridiculously overstaed by people on this board.

I don't mean any disrespect to you. But after 18 games, we haven't seen Lisch yet? After 18 games we can easily evaluate his progress by saying he is a solid recruit and will eventually be a good player for SLU. I think even you can admit his learning curve probably surprised you a bit. It doesn't surprise me in the least. You can't do some of the same high school stuff in college.

Ideally SLU would have better upperclassmen. They don't. That would have allowed a Lisch to come off the bench sometimes instead of starting. He has to start, and is getting needed experience and taking his lumps. I do believe he will be much improved next season, and a diffeence maker his last two years. That is my opinion based on his ability and the ability fo those around him. If you take away his age, and evaluate him, an objective bystander would say, doesn't handle it well enough consistently, doesn't get into lane often, inconsistent at best shooter, good size physically,...doesn't defend the three well at times...needs improved footwork, needs more aggressiveness in all phases of game. Game is often played too fast for him. Now...obviously you have to consider expectations, year in school etc...and Lisch will be fine if he works on those things which he will. Sure you will get glipmses of better than this at times.

Liddell, more advanced than Lisch at this stage, and more potential due to athleticism. Both will work on their shooting, footwork...Lisch needs to improve his footwork imo, and adjust to the speed of the college game.

Polk...wow...I don't think you can give up on him yet...but my solution is to recruit a better player and Polk either rides pine rest of career, or if he doesn't like that leaves. Polk so far is a bust...but can possibly turn it around. I personally doubt it...but who cares what I think? He is a pint size two guard. He is not a point guard. And, he can't shoot a lick. Sure he could spend all off-season working on his shooting or floor game at pt....and improve in one area...I however do not think he will improve enough in multiple areas. His speed is keeping him on the roster and in games. That is his value. He doesn't get into the lane, he can't shoot, doesn't create enough for others, isn't strong...that is a lot of things. Sure he can improve and be a productive team member...if he works like crazy, and still he might not improve enough.

I am convinced a lot of people will go into next year thinking how great the team will be...when it will be an NIT team on paper...with always hope for more. I really think Lisch and Liddell will be difference makers their last two years...flashes of it before then. And of the rest of the recruiting does not improve, it won't matter. Because the development of those two also hinges on recruiting.

This year, SLU is .500 club and everyone thought it would be. Next year, should be better...but the question is how much better? Some yes, a ton, ?

[billiken_roy]

beleive what you want. but i am telling you that he has more ball and slashing skills than he has exhibited. his bread and butter in high school was not as a stand around shooter. if that was what he was recruited to do, i would tell you that we f'd up. because that isnt what i only envisioned. his ability to defend (which surely all of you agree he has proven) and get to the foul line were his greatest attribute. and i just find it hard to believe that he has now become a stand on the wing and shoot when open shooter. he can do more, but i think he has been told that isnt his role. nothing else makes sense.

same with liddell as jalejarr will attest to, this is nothing like he was playing before. he too has been assigned a new role.

now granted as they get older those roles may change, however, my confusion is considering our offensive retardation, why hold the two of them back?

[JaleJarr]

believe what you want. but i am telling you that he has

more ball and slashing skills than he has exhibited. his

bread and butter in high school was not as a stand around

shooter. if that was what he was recruited to do, i would

tell you that we f'd up. because that isnt what i only

envisioned. his ability to defend (which surely all of you

agree he has proven) and get to the foul line were his

greatest attribute. and i just find it hard to believe that

he has now become a stand on the wing and shoot when open

shooter. he can do more, but i think he has been told that

isnt his role. nothing else makes sense.

I'm totally with you on the play of Lisch. He is playing beyond his years defensively. Offensively he has the ability to do more, but only if given a chance. Very heady player who rarely makes mistakes with the ball.Underrated ballhandler who can score in the open court. I loved how he pushed the ball vs Xavier, got the defender on his heels and popped a jumper from the free throw circle, textbook.

I may be wrong but I think Soderberg somewhat underestimated this team. He promised a more uptempo style with the belief this team would struggle for wins only to find this team to be competitive. Possibly thinking if we're not going to win, we can at least be enjoyable to watch. Once the team starting to win he fell back into the thinking of would you rather win by scoring 50 points or lose when scoring into the 70's. If this team can continue to play .500 ball, SLU could sneak into the NIT Tourney. Postseason is Postseason.

The only problem with this thinking is he doesn't have the personnel to play that style effectively or at least consistently. Another negative of playing a brand of ball where the players are not getting

positive feedback is it could carry over into next season.

[jjray]

I don't believe Brad is playing Dwayne to please Floyd Irons. He must think there is some defensive advantage to playing Dwayne and he is telling himself "forget scoring, we'll just defend." I'm confused why he just didn't stick with the rotation from the Xavier game.

[billiken_roy]

jalejarr said about kevin lisch, "I loved how he pushed the ball vs Xavier, got the defender on his heels and popped a jumper from the free throw circle, textbook."

think about lisch's first basket last night as well. that is more the kevin lisch that i remember. not the one doing some sort of drew diener imitation from beyond the arc.

kevin's offensive priority that i always saw before this season was first a mid range game that got him to the foul line a lot and after the other team realized they were losing that battle and would play off of him defensively only then did he show the three which i agree he was very good at. but he is better creating his shot off the dribble imo.

[JaleJarr]

same with liddell as jalejarr will attest to, this is

nothing like he was playing before. he too has been

assigned a new role.

Not only Liddell but I have a hard time believing that Polk, Lisch, Brown, and to a lesser extent Luke Meyer were brought in to play station to station ball. Polk's confidence is totally shot as he has nothing positive to feed off of. Tommie would be in the same boat if not for his size and athleticism.

[moytoy12]

There's a commonness to this thread and many others that have been posted throughout the season: the inability of our offense and the stubbornness to keep it in place. I'm not a real deep basketball person, but it seems the offense and the refusal to try something new on offense is a major problem. After half a season, when something isn't working, it seems like it is time for a change. Some will question the strategy of changing mid-season and the detrimental consequence it might have. Could it get worse than 39 points?

Admittedly, I have only seen one half of billiken basketball on tv this season, so I don't have a great sense of what is really going on during the games. But I do have recent history of low scoring UB teams.

Quite frankly, I would rather be a 9-9 team that is exciting, runs, scores, makes mistakes, plays to player strengths and accounts for what the team does and doesn't have. Take a 9-9 team that loses to SJU at home 91-77 in a more exciting fashion with (from what i hear) a decent crowd. The loss stinks, but fans and recruits have something to be excited about. There is a trickle down effect.

UB reminds me of Bill Cowher during his AFCC game losses. To hell with adapting the game plan, we're gonna sit here and lose to New England by sticking to our game plan.

This message is a bit schizo, but i hope it gets the thrust of my point across, time to change the offense.

[JaleJarr]

think about lisch's first basket last night as well. that

is more the kevin lisch that i remember. not the one doing

some sort of drew diener imitation from beyond the arc.

Before he shot it I was saying yeah Kevin. Just about every shot he takes looks as if it has a chance of going in. People want to bemoan the fact that he went 1-7 from 3 point range, but as good of a shooter Kevin is, 7 shots should have only been half of his game totals. What are we doing with this offense- more precisely what are we doing with this team? Are we trying to prepare them for the future? Or are we trying to squeeze out every little victory at the cost of their development.

[JaleJarr]

There's a commonness to this thread and many others that

have been posted throughout the season: the inability of

our offense and the stubbornness to keep it in place. I'm

not a real deep basketball person, but it seems the offense

and the refusal to try something new on offense is a major

problem. After half a season, when something isn't working,

it seems like it is time for a change.

I will use the analogy of a guy walking down a particular street 2 days in a row and gets his head handed to him each time. Now as a reasonable thinking person, would you go down that street a 3rd time.

This message is a bit schizo, but i hope it gets the thrust

of my point across, time to change the offense.

You make perfect sense.

[moytoy12]

...why he has stayed with what he is doing? Or given any thoughts on changing up a bit (outside of "we're gonna be a running team" given during the preseason)?

[SLUAvtr]

OK, so I held out as long as I could before posting today. And nope, and that's what frightens me as well. Obviously, nothing worked the first half last night. Wouldn't you think that you saw your offense and defense was broken, wouldn't you try to fix it in the second half? It's funny, if you see Brad's Lou Fusz commercial during televised games where he writes out "LOU FUSZ" John Madden style, he makes references to a number of different offensive sets. My question is, does he just know those sets in name only? All of us kept seemeing the same damn thing for almost 35+ minutes last night. Something different could've changed the entire landscape of the game maybe. Come on UB, you're starting to remind me of Coach Kline from the movie Waterboy. GET YOUR ASS IN GEAR!

[billiken_roy]

moytoy, i am not disagreeing with what you are saying, however to pose the real question when you say,

"Quite frankly, I would rather be a 9-9 team that is exciting, runs, scores, makes mistakes, plays to player strengths and accounts for what the team does and doesn't have."

the question that we cant answer is whether we would be 9-9 by playing uptempo. i contend without a rebounding helper for ian we cant play that way. more fast breaks start off of a missed shot than any other way. and if ian and tommie are our best rebounders, and we expect tommie to also lead or finish on the break, that is a tough ask.

the power forward position continues to be the black hole.

[billiken_roy]

a lot of people loved spoon for his showbiz personality, but i loved spoon most because i beleive he was the best bench coach i ever saw. if spoon was ahead at the half. he didnt get beat. if he was behind, he was a master at adjustments. and it wasnt like spoon was loaded with size and talent.

soderberg's most irratating trait imo is his stubborness to change. not just during games, but anytime. he is one stong minded man.

[moytoy12]

broy, I'm not necessarily married to a completely uptempo game. But as you and jalejarr have pointed out, why not implement an offense with more slashing from TL and KL? Again, i don't know the ins and outs of bball, but if that plays to TL and KL's strenghts...well, while in Rome.

I believe jalejarr made an excellent post on another thread, as i read it...move Ian away from the hoop, create space, create action. Why does it seem that we are consistently creating perimeter motion with no real end to our means?

Given the greater basketball knowledge from you guys and combining that with logic, it seems we could create a more explosive and uptempo game in the half court offense. Half court and uptempo don't seem to be mutually exclusive.

As many others have pointed out or intimated, UB seems disorganized in his coaching. It seems frustrating enough that we don't shift our offensive paradigm, but to be inconsistent (starting lineups, minutes, timeout usage, etc.) within the stated paradigm is the exact recipe for what UB and bills are currently cooking this season.

[billiken_roy]

dont get me wrong. my comments are not an endorsement of our style of play, only a defense of what might be going on. if pushed for an answer of whether we would be better off running or half court. right now without the better half off the two sided justin johnson, i would say we are better half court. i hate that, because it misuses liddell and lisch imo, but ian cant rebound by himself.