Liddell/McKinney

[VTIME]

Both guys are proving that when aggressive they are as good and can play with anybody. Tommie, just a great shot last night. McKinney has been superb in conference play scoring 20pts in 2 of his last 3 and shooting a great percentage. He's finally being more selfish ironically after being moved from sg to pg. His career numbers dont pop out at you and many people will always consider him a bust, if he finishes strong he change a lot of minds and end a solid career on an above average note. Liddell needs to be aggressive the whole game. I like him at pg. He needs the freedom from the staff to go 1 on 1 and pull out his moves and crossovers and create. He did a nice crossover late in the game and got blocked, but more often than not, those kinds of plays will result in free throws. And after all the knocks on his shooting by many different people and message boars including this one, he knocked down a huge jumper with a guy all over him for the win.

[aj_arete]

placed on him. I must say that I was one of those posters, who expected big things from him. However, it shows you how difficult it is to make the transition from high school to college. Actually, McKinney has had a solid career, but it appears he was a bust because so much was expected from him.

As for Liddell, I think he has more athletic, NBA-type skills than a McKinney. My question is whether he has the passion to become an elite player. Even without the passion, he'll be a good college player, but his potential is enormous.

[Sheltiedave]

McKinney is a bust, only doing all-conference numbers at this point, when he could be hanging them since his sophomore year.

Come on guys - any McDonald's AA has the physical skills to be a dominant shut down defender in college, and then McKinney was the best player on a top five high school team to boot. The best player off a great team has to develop into a starter and a star. There is little way McKinney should not have progressed to being one of the better combo guards in the country, even with being handicapped by a college coach that can't develop a souffle, and not possessing blazing speed.

McKinney has always had the talent, the savvy, and the physical tools to be dominating in college. Vashon does not have the hype machine(nationally) like New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, and a few other metro areas. {RE Sebastion Telfair on the cover of SI, and Shaun Livingston blows by him in the NBA draft out of Peoria.}McKinney did not get his 4/5 star ranking by being a flash in the pan.

It gets old when Mizzou/Vashon fans talk players up, and seeing how high players get ranked, only to see mediocrity in college performance. I think there are very few people who know how to assess talent, and then there are a lot of blathering idiots.

[willie]

Hey it's hard to make a souffle. I do agree Q has shown little ability to develope anyone.

[SShoe]

You can't really compare the two at this point. One is a freshman with all the promise in the world and the other is a senior at the end of a disappointing career. With defenses so keyed on Gardner, McKinney should do a little scoring. If in 3 years, Tommie hasn't progressed at all, then this conversation can be started again.

Jury's still out on Brad's ability to develop players, because the only 4-year player has been Drejaj, who is a bad test subject because he isn't exactly what we would call a great athlete with a lot of upside who needed a coach to develop him. The improvement of Ian is encouraging, but that could be attributed to his play in Greece.

[VTIME]

St. Louis players in general, not just McKinney, no matter how stellar the repuatation have not had much success at Mizzou. Same in football. Might be a curse. Some KC guys like Peeler and Rush have faired well though. McKinney was still a four year starter who will finish with a career scoring average of over 10ppg, but a disappiont nonetheless. In his case, his reputation preceeded him and for a kid who is too unselfish, it just wasnt meant to be. I dont blame anyone for having lofty expectations he was a top 50 player in the nation and played in the Jordan Capital Classic. He would've been so much better at SLU. I mean he was all-freshman in the Big 12 and would've no doubt done the same for SLU. The Billikens need to keep the Saint Louis players and make Mizzou pick from the rest of the state. The Bills only have one player on the team actually from the Saint Louis and that is Dwayne Polk. I'm just glad McKinney hasnt sulked about everything and is finally playing to his potential, during the last 6 games. Could have a Marque Perry like senior season.

[JaleJarr]

but I felt Liddell was a better player as a sophmore than McKinney the senior. The reason being that McKinney was surrounded by a great cast and a good coach. Although McKinney was a great shooter, I felt his limited ball handling skills would be exposed at the next level and they were. He had the bad habit of using his off hand as a guard when pressured. This was like chum to a shark as it only invites more pressure. Never being a guy that could create his own shot or having the ability to beat Division 1 guards off the dribble is what kept McKinney from duplicating his high school feats. Hopefully he took full advantage of his 4 years of college and could someday give back by becoming a coach.

[VTIME]

Dont mean to reply to myself, but I thought this needed to be posted separately. As long as Liddell doesnt suffer through the poor shooting career that McKinney had his first 3 years, the future is bright. The best thing he can do from April through August is put up 500-1000 jumpers a day from all over and work on his FT shooting as well. Him doing that is better than any recruit we could bring in. I say we save the rest of the schollies this year and bring in 6 or 7 freshman in 207 with Powell, Harrellson, Stokes, McNutt, Gilmore, Woodland,Goode, Cole, Tyus, and Cass (if he's reclassified at Boys 2 Men)

[tseugnekillib]

Let's see, Ian spends three months a year in Greece and nine months a year at SLU.....yes, you could be right in that Ian's development could be attributed to his summer work ing Greece.

[VTIME]

>but I felt Liddell was a better player as a sophmore than

>McKinney the senior. The reason being that McKinney was

>surrounded by a great cast and a good coach. Although

>McKinney was a great shooter, I felt his limited ball

>handling skills would be exposed at the next level and they

>were. He had the bad habit of using his off hand as a guard

>when pressured. This was like chum to a shark as it only

>invites more pressure. Never being a guy that could create

>his own shot or having the ability to beat Division 1 guards

>off the dribble is what kept McKinney from duplicating his

>high school feats. Hopefully he took full advantage of his 4

>years of college and could someday give back by becoming a

>coach.

I think you're pouring it on a little bit. Jimmy was one of the best high school players in the history of Missouri. His resume matches up with the all the Missouri greats including Jo Jo White, Steve Stipanovich, and Tyler Hansbrough. He turned down an offer from Illinois to stay in state which I also thought was commendable.

[JaleJarr]

I think you're pouring it on a little bit. Jimmy was one of

the best high school players in the history of Missouri.

His resume matches up with the all the Missouri greats

including Jo Jo White, Steve Stipanovich, and Tyler

Hansbrough. He turned down an offer from Illinois to stay

in state which I also thought was commendable.

I never disputed that. What I'm saying is because many people felt he was one of the all time greats they conviently looked over his flaws. It happens all the time. Turning down an offer from Illinois means exactly what? Illinois has the 2004 Sun-Times player of the year(Calvin Brock) pulling splinters out of his ass. Just because you have an offer in hand from a top university doesn't always equate to future success.

[JaleJarr]

Let's see, Ian spends three months a year in Greece and nine

months a year at SLU.....yes, you could be right in that

Ian's development could be attributed to his summer work ing

Greece.

Not to take anything away from the coaching staff, but I'm sure it didn't hurt facing the competition he did with the Greek National Team. I doubt SLU had anyone on the roster to push Ian to his limits.

[kshoe]

somebody criticizing Ian for going to play in Greece during the summer and you came to Ian's defense with something along the line of "do you think Ian will get better this summer playing world-class competition or playing pick up ball at West Pine vs. Bryce." If that wasn't you then I apologize but I certainly agreed with that sentiment.

Now you are taking offense to somebody's statement that much of Ian's growth as a player COULD be attributed to him playing his summers in Greece. That doesn't seem far fetched considering the dramatic progress he made from the end of last year to the beginning of this year.

[tseugnekillib]

I think Ian's improvement has been the result of his 36+ consecutive months of hard work to improve his game. His nine months each year in West Pine is valuable. His three months each summer working with the Greece national team is valuable. imo, it would be wrong to ignore either the nine month SLU effort or the three month Greece effort. It's the combine effort that has made IV the player he is today.

(btw, I'll say it again.....playing in the guard-minded Bonner league would be pretty much a waste of time for IV,..... as it pretty much is for BH.)

[VTIME]

>placed on him. I must say that I was one of those posters,

>who expected big things from him. However, it shows you how

>difficult it is to make the transition from high school to

>college. Actually, McKinney has had a solid career, but it

>appears he was a bust because so much was expected from him.

>

>As for Liddell, I think he has more athletic, NBA-type

>skills than a McKinney. My question is whether he has the

>passion to become an elite player. Even without the

>passion, he'll be a good college player, but his potential

>is enormous.

This is probably the only on court knock I have on Vashon players. They play in a system where the offense is balanced and no one really ever has to create their own shot. At the college level, the truly elite players have to be able to create their own shot. And even if you have the ability to do so, you also need the confidence.

[tseugnekillib]

I believe one of the things that helps Ian's game are his scrimmages and one-on-one station drills with 7-2 #270 (my numbers) Bryce Husak. Likewise, I think Bryce's development has come from his three years of practicing against a player of Ian's size and skill.

Picture Ian practicing BH five days a week, versus his practicing against 6-6,6-7,6-8 post players. Quite frankly, they pretty much beat the crap out of each other on a regular basis.

[billiken_roy]

while i am sure ian has gained valuable experience and skill enhancement playing summer games, however i attribute his advancement more to getting his body in shape and stronger than anything else. he could have accomplished that part in greece, in st louis, in valmeyer or in kshoe's basement.

[SShoe]

I wasn't trying to claim Ian's improvement only came because of his play in Greece, but I do think that had something to do with it. I actually attribute Ian's improvement mostly to his getting used to the physical side of American-style basketball. A lot of skilled European players come over and don't do well because they get pushed around a lot. Ian has learned to "push-back".

I do find it encouraging that Ian has improved as much as he has and hope that Brad has had a lot to do with that. I'm just thinking it's too early to decide if Brad's ability to develop players is strong. It's not too early to suggest that Quin's ability is lacking, considering all the quality recruits he's gotten and their lack of improvement. McKinney being one of them.

[Sheltiedave]

VTime, not to beat a dead horse, but McD AA's are the studs on a team that can always create their own shot. McKinney was the best player on the court in over ten games I saw during his hs career, and Vashon played some top notch teams(ie Chicago Farragut.) Jimmy schooled some DI level college forwards during his four years at Vashon, so his transition to combo guard at Mizzou did not need to progress like this.

I don't see being too unselfish being a 3.5 year excuse for Jimmy being pedestrian at Mizzou. I lay partial blame at Q's feet for being a truly pitiful player development coach, and a majority of the blame on player assessment. Vashon players individually do not shine, for whatever reason, when they depart from St. Louis hardwood. Bonner seems to be the rare exception.

[STLfan]

Mckinney wasn't a McDonald's AA. This is a good example of to much hype. He was a 4 star recuit that was ranked 47th in the country. Still should have been better than he has been but people have been unfair in their expectations of him.

Amare Stoudemire

Carmelo Anthony

Raymond Felton

Paul Davis

Jason Fraser

Chris Bosh

Rashad McCants

Shelden Williams

DeAngelo Collins

Sean May

Lenny Cooke

Shavlik Randolph

J.J. Redick

Evan Burns

Bracey Wright

Torin Francis

Daniel Horton

Kennedy Winston

Hassan Adams

Anthony Roberson

Chris Rodgers

Antoine Wright

Dee Brown

Brad Buckman

Sani Ibrahim

Andre Iguodala

Eric Williams

Rashad Anderson

Sean Dockery

Travis Garrison

Mike Thompson

Denham Brown

Elijah Ingram

Kelenna Azubuike

Kevin Bookout

Brandon Roy

Randy Foye

Gerry McNamara

Mario Boggan

Jarrett Jack

Curtis Sumpter

Bryan Hopkins

J.R. Morris

Eric Hicks

Marshall Strickland

John Gilchrist

Were all ranked Higher than Mckinney out of High School.

Also Mizzou has gotten plenty of top 100 talent similiar to Mckinney. Mizzou's problem is quin's inability to develop and coach the talent he brings in.

2002

47. Jimmy Mckinney

83. Kevin Young

2003

13. Linas Kleiza

42. Thomas Gardner

2004

51. Jason Horton

54. Marshall Brown

61. Kalen Grimes

82. Glen Dandridge

2005

64. Leo Criswell

Eight of those players are on their roster this year. A good coach with that team and their schedule would only have about two losses instead of five.

I used to think recruiting was a big weakness in Soderberg but recently he seems to be recruiting better talent. I'd love it if Slu could get to the point where they have a roster with a good number of top 100 players. That much talent with BS Coaching would be hard to stop.

[SShoe]

Good post...

[davidnark]

...35. See http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_PostSeason_2002.htm

The so-called experts believed the hype.

[SShoe]

Wow, interesting to look at the names above him, but more so below him. Players like Francisco Garcia, James Augustine, etc.

[VTIME]

>...35. See

>http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_PostSeason_2002.htm

>

>The so-called experts believed the hype.

Well yeah. He's showed what he could've been doing all along had he been aggressive. I hope Tommie fan find that fire from within. Some kids no matter how talented, are just too nice on the court. Example, Yao Ming.