The Shot Clock Expiration Offense

[Bay Area Billiken]

First, I remain a Coach Majerus supporter. He certainly knows much more about basketball than me, a mere fan of the game, as my coaching experience consists of 5 years in the CYO.

But how about retooling this SLU offense? Evidently due to The Situation, the existing players are struggling playing this offense. How about a little one on one, dribble penetration by McCall and Jett?

The current offense has morphed into the dreaded Shot Clock Expiration Offense, a staple of SLU Basketball since before there even was a shot clock, going at least back to yours truly's SLU undergraduate days under Ekker.

And while we're at it, may I renew my request for the playing of some zone defense, especially against teams with quick dribble penetration guards that are challenged in outside shooting? Why not? At least SLU could have the zone as part of the defensive arsenal.

I definitely hope Coach Majerus stays, even if, given current circumstances, I don't agree with his

complicated system on offense, especially with existing players that can't play

it, nor his total reliance on the man to man defense. SLU right now just

doesn't have the horses for either. Sure the defense looks good on the stats

sheet in terms of points allowed, but guards can drive on SLU, and there's no

Willie in the back to block their layups. The pass the ball around the perimeter offense may be playing a role in those defensive stats by limiting opponents' possessions.

People are on Majerus for his recruiting. But earlier, before The Situation, people said the talent level at

SLU is at an all-time high. It's hard to tell, but the existing team is really

struggling. I think there is talent there, but the team is without its 2 best

and important players. As for the existing team, it's almost like the Yogi Berra line that you can't hit

and think at the same time. Similarly, you can't shoot and think at the same

time, and from what I've seen lately, these SLU players are thinking too much, playing like robots.

Just go out there and play the game; for SLU that must be easier said than

done.

But I watch these teams out here like USF, certainly no power, and

tonight I'm planning to see USF play at St. Mary's, which has a strong team.

There is no such thing as the Shot Clock Expiration Offense out here. These

teams get up and down the floor and shoot the ball. One thing I told the CYO kids, if you don't shoot, you can't score, and if you can't score, you can't win.

I'm almost ready for some of the Guy V. Lewis approach, to "throw out the basketballs and let the boys play." We used to hear under Ekker that SLU couldn't play that way because we would get blown out. What difference does it make if you are losing anyway? Maybe it would do some good to loosen up the troops, lighten the load, take off some pressure.

[dlarry]

I agree with you and I think a lot of other people do too.

But I dont think we have to worry about Majerus leaving.

If he talks about leaving or people try to run him off I think we could hear a speech like this from Willie or Kwamain

[doowop]

I am one who wholeheartedly agrees, especially about trying a zone defense and changing the offense to suit the players abilities. But RM is stubborn and even though he is a good coach, some time I think he thinks he's God's gift to basketball. He needs flexibility in his thinking. And this thing about him being a HOF coach is old now. Denny Crum and John Thompson were great coaches but, their way of coaching does not work with todays players. It's not just the league we are in that keeps us from getting four and five star players. It is also the style of ball we play.

[Westy03]

I agree that we should try some different things but that probably won't change a whole lot. Also, no one was really questioning ricks style of play when we went 11-5 in a tough conference last year...

[doowop]

I agree that we should try some different things but that probably won't change a whole lot. Also, no one was really questioning ricks style of play when we went 11-5 in a tough conference last year...

The top ballplayers were. That is why we don't get any. Some posters last year questioned why we don't sometime use a zone.

[jbizzle09]

The top ballplayers were. That is why we don't get any. Some posters last year questioned why we don't sometime use a zone.

So we don't get any top ballplayers? I would beg to differ. I would say that Majerus has been able to recruit beyond what SLU was typically able to do in the past over his 3 full recruiting classes, at least based on ESPN scouting grades for the kids those seasons. We know that some have turned out well, some have left and some have underperformed. However, each season he has been here he has been able to attract highly rated prospects, which each season possibly getting better. Let's take a look:

2008

Conklin: Scouts grade 86 and rated 50th at position. Also considered by Oregon State, Boise State, Montana, Lehigh

Mitchell: Scouts grade 87 and rated 39th at position. Also considered Milwaukee, Bradley, Iowa State and Illinois State

Thompson: Scouts grade 89 and rated 25th at position.

John: Not rated

Reed: Not rated

Cassity: Not rated

Cotto: Not rated

2009

Ellis: Scouts grade 87 and 80th at position. Also considered Wake Forest, UNLV, Colorado, Sant Mary's and Washington State.

Remekun: Scouts grade 86 and 94th at position. Also considered Tulane, Western Kentucky, Utah State and Missouri State.

Salecich: Scouts grade 88 and 49th at position. Also considered Saint Mary's, Butler, Valpo, Ball State and Washington State.

Smith: Scouts grade 88 and 58th at position. Also considered Xavier, Ohio and Kent State.

Reid: Scouts grade 87 and 58th at position. Also considered Kansas State, Gonzaga, Marquette and Iowa.

Jordan: Scouts grade 87 and 34th at position. Also considered Texas Tech, Cincinnati, Butler and Purdue.

2010

Loe: Scouts grade 91 and 39th at position. Also considered Colorado, Saint Mary's, Arizona, Pitt and Georgia Tech.

McCall: Scouts grade 88 and 57th at position. No other considerations.

Jett: Scouts grade 90 and 45th at position. Also considered Arkansas and Baylor.

Evans: Scouts grade 80 and 148th at position. No other considerations.

Barnett: Transfer from Toledo. Original grade was 80.

2011

Manning: Scouts grade 88 and 43rd at position. Also considered William and Mary, Tulane, George Mason and UCF.

Now, is Majerus getting the so-called 4-5 star players? No, I think we will all agree that he isn't. Mainly because there are only a few out there every season and SLU, much like any mid-major or even most BCS conference schools, just isn't going to be able to get them away from Duke, UNC, Kansas, etc. However, he is able to get very highly rated players year in and year out. This all despite his stubborness and willingness to stick with a difficult offensive scheme. Personally, I will continue to trust RM's judgement when it comes to coaching and recruting this team based on his track record in the past and what appears to be an ability to get good players year in and out.

[BBall Fan]

I agree that we should try some different things but that probably won't change a whole lot. Also, no one was really questioning ricks style of play when we went 11-5 in a tough conference last year...

exactly

[BBall Fan]

So we don't get any top ballplayers? I would beg to differ. I would say that Majerus has been able to recruit beyond what SLU was typically able to do in the past over his 3 full recruiting classes, at least based on ESPN scouting grades for the kids those seasons. We know that some have turned out well, some have left and some have underperformed. However, each season he has been here he has been able to attract highly rated prospects, which each season possibly getting better. Let's take a look:

2008

Conklin: Scouts grade 86 and rated 50th at position. Also considered by Oregon State, Boise State, Montana, Lehigh

Mitchell: Scouts grade 87 and rated 39th at position. Also considered Milwaukee, Bradley, Iowa State and Illinois State

Thompson: Scouts grade 89 and rated 25th at position.

John: Not rated

Reed: Not rated

Cassity: Not rated

Cotto: Not rated

2009

Ellis: Scouts grade 87 and 80th at position. Also considered Wake Forest, UNLV, Colorado, Sant Mary's and Washington State.

Remekun: Scouts grade 86 and 94th at position. Also considered Tulane, Western Kentucky, Utah State and Missouri State.

Salecich: Scouts grade 88 and 49th at position. Also considered Saint Mary's, Butler, Valpo, Ball State and Washington State.

Smith: Scouts grade 88 and 58th at position. Also considered Xavier, Ohio and Kent State.

Reid: Scouts grade 87 and 58th at position. Also considered Kansas State, Gonzaga, Marquette and Iowa.

Jordan: Scouts grade 87 and 34th at position. Also considered Texas Tech, Cincinnati, Butler and Purdue.

2010

Loe: Scouts grade 91 and 39th at position. Also considered Colorado, Saint Mary's, Arizona, Pitt and Georgia Tech.

McCall: Scouts grade 88 and 57th at position. No other considerations.

Jett: Scouts grade 90 and 45th at position. Also considered Arkansas and Baylor.

Evans: Scouts grade 80 and 148th at position. No other considerations.

Barnett: Transfer from Toledo. Original grade was 80.

2011

Manning: Scouts grade 88 and 43rd at position. Also considered William and Mary, Tulane, George Mason and UCF.

Now, is Majerus getting the so-called 4-5 star players? No, I think we will all agree that he isn't. Mainly because there are only a few out there every season and SLU, much like any mid-major or even most BCS conference schools, just isn't going to be able to get them away from Duke, UNC, Kansas, etc. However, he is able to get very highly rated players year in and year out. This all despite his stubborness and willingness to stick with a difficult offensive scheme. Personally, I will continue to trust RM's judgement when it comes to coaching and recruting this team based on his track record in the past and what appears to be an ability to get good players year in and out.

double exactly

[doowop]

So we don't get any top ballplayers? I would beg to differ. I would say that Majerus has been able to recruit beyond what SLU was typically able to do in the past over his 3 full recruiting classes, at least based on ESPN scouting grades for the kids those seasons. We know that some have turned out well, some have left and some have underperformed. However, each season he has been here he has been able to attract highly rated prospects, which each season possibly getting better. Let's take a look:

2008

Conklin: Scouts grade 86 and rated 50th at position. Also considered by Oregon State, Boise State, Montana, Lehigh

Mitchell: Scouts grade 87 and rated 39th at position. Also considered Milwaukee, Bradley, Iowa State and Illinois State

Thompson: Scouts grade 89 and rated 25th at position.

John: Not rated

Reed: Not rated

Cassity: Not rated

Cotto: Not rated

2009

Ellis: Scouts grade 87 and 80th at position. Also considered Wake Forest, UNLV, Colorado, Sant Mary's and Washington State.

Remekun: Scouts grade 86 and 94th at position. Also considered Tulane, Western Kentucky, Utah State and Missouri State.

Salecich: Scouts grade 88 and 49th at position. Also considered Saint Mary's, Butler, Valpo, Ball State and Washington State.

Smith: Scouts grade 88 and 58th at position. Also considered Xavier, Ohio and Kent State.

Reid: Scouts grade 87 and 58th at position. Also considered Kansas State, Gonzaga, Marquette and Iowa.

Jordan: Scouts grade 87 and 34th at position. Also considered Texas Tech, Cincinnati, Butler and Purdue.

2010

Loe: Scouts grade 91 and 39th at position. Also considered Colorado, Saint Mary's, Arizona, Pitt and Georgia Tech.

McCall: Scouts grade 88 and 57th at position. No other considerations.

Jett: Scouts grade 90 and 45th at position. Also considered Arkansas and Baylor.

Evans: Scouts grade 80 and 148th at position. No other considerations.

Barnett: Transfer from Toledo. Original grade was 80.

2011

Manning: Scouts grade 88 and 43rd at position. Also considered William and Mary, Tulane, George Mason and UCF.

Now, is Majerus getting the so-called 4-5 star players? No, I think we will all agree that he isn't. Mainly because there are only a few out there every season and SLU, much like any mid-major or even most BCS conference schools, just isn't going to be able to get them away from Duke, UNC, Kansas, etc. However, he is able to get very highly rated players year in and year out. This all despite his stubborness and willingness to stick with a difficult offensive scheme. Personally, I will continue to trust RM's judgement when it comes to coaching and recruting this team based on his track record in the past and what appears to be an ability to get good players year in and out.

There are over 300 ballplayers rated by some services. Kansas, Duke, Kentucky, and North Carolina can't get them all. When has RM gotten one player rated in the bottom 50 of the top100? How many have been rated in the top 30 at their position? I don't want one and doners but I would like toget SOME of the top players from THIS area. The ones who can qualify. How many highly rated local players are even considering SLU? Beal, Biedscheid, McClemore, Granger. They don't want to play for SLU. Say what you want. Most players today want to play in an up tempo system.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I agree that we should try some different things but that probably won't change a whole lot. Also, no one was really questioning ricks style of play when we went 11-5 in a tough conference last year...

Last year was a horse of a different color- we had KM and WR, huge difference.

I'm just asking at this point if some adaptation in the offensive and defensive systems is needed to the existing personnel in place. Coach Majerus adapted some in Year 1.

Somewhat OT- I'm just back from USF at St. Mary's in Moraga. SMC won 71-57. The teams were going up and down. There was scarce shot clock milking. Most of the game a shot clock was not needed, especially for St. Mary's. If a guy on St. Mary's had an open shot, he fired it up there. Watching these teams, and St. Mary's is at minimum a bubble NCAA Tournament team, I couldn't help but think that our SLU team has better talent. But their Aussies seem to play better playing an up tempo game. I think our Aussies, most especially Cody Ellis, and the Kiwi, Rob Loe, are better, but the results say otherwise.

I think SLU should keep Cody Ellis in that lineup and let him play, as in 30+ minutes per game, if not more, especially with the current roster. Last year in the CBI, when Cody seemed physically spent, SLU moved him inside, and he was very effective playing down low. Perhaps that's another change that could be made. And I'm an offensive proponent first, offense over defense in my book. If you can't score, you can't win, irrespective of how great you are playing defense. Also, play some zone and this 9 or 10 man roster is not as spent at crunch time, and you don't get burned by guards in dribble drive penetration that can't hit outside shots, as in a lousy Bowling Green team. That one still makes me cringe. If there ever was a need for a zone, it was that debacle.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Playing more up tempo gives less time for overthinking, which might help the shooting.

[moytoy12]

I agree that we should try some different things but that probably won't change a whole lot. Also, no one was really questioning ricks style of play when we went 11-5 in a tough conference last year...

I think people were questioning the offense last year. Obviously, not with the same volume, but it was being questioned (and not just by Roy).

[sarge]

Why should or would you recruit local players that are rated lower then the ones you are recruiting? This team is not setup for a up tempo style game.

[jbizzle09]

Anyone who thinks we could have gotten Beal is smoking the good sh*t. The only way he ever would have come to SLU is if his brother was really sick. The kid is rated as the 7th best recruit overall and was considered by Illinois, Kansas, Duke and Ohio State before signing with Florida. He will probably be jumping to the NBA before his 4 years are up. I don't care what offense Majerus is running, SLU was never an option for Beal.

Now, I agree with the original sentiment of the thread that Majerus should probably try to incorporate different looks in the offense, try some different things. However, he may also be looking at this season as a total wash and wants these players to completely learn his system so they can play in it with more confidence next season. While that may suck for us fans watching this season, Majerus might be looking at the big picture, knowing that next season (and further down) is now what matters.

[kevinfootes]

First, I remain a Coach Majerus supporter. He certainly knows much more about basketball than me, a mere fan of the game, as my coaching experience consists of 5 years in the CYO.

But how about retooling this SLU offense? Evidently due to The Situation, the existing players are struggling playing this offense. How about a little one on one, dribble penetration by McCall and Jett?

The current offense has morphed into the dreaded Shot Clock Expiration Offense, a staple of SLU Basketball since before there even was a shot clock, going at least back to yours truly's SLU undergraduate days under Ekker.

And while we're at it, may I renew my request for the playing of some zone defense, especially against teams with quick dribble penetration guards that are challenged in outside shooting? Why not? At least SLU could have the zone as part of the defensive arsenal.

I definitely hope Coach Majerus stays, even if, given current circumstances, I don't agree with his

complicated system on offense, especially with existing players that can't play

it, nor his total reliance on the man to man defense. SLU right now just

doesn't have the horses for either. Sure the defense looks good on the stats

sheet in terms of points allowed, but guards can drive on SLU, and there's no

Willie in the back to block their layups. The pass the ball around the perimeter offense may be playing a role in those defensive stats by limiting opponents' possessions.

People are on Majerus for his recruiting. But earlier, before The Situation, people said the talent level at

SLU is at an all-time high. It's hard to tell, but the existing team is really

struggling. I think there is talent there, but the team is without its 2 best

and important players. As for the existing team, it's almost like the Yogi Berra line that you can't hit

and think at the same time. Similarly, you can't shoot and think at the same

time, and from what I've seen lately, these SLU players are thinking too much, playing like robots.

Just go out there and play the game; for SLU that must be easier said than

done.

But I watch these teams out here like USF, certainly no power, and

tonight I'm planning to see USF play at St. Mary's, which has a strong team.

There is no such thing as the Shot Clock Expiration Offense out here. These

teams get up and down the floor and shoot the ball. One thing I told the CYO kids, if you don't shoot, you can't score, and if you can't score, you can't win.

I'm almost ready for some of the Guy V. Lewis approach, to "throw out the basketballs and let the boys play." We used to hear under Ekker that SLU couldn't play that way because we would get blown out. What difference does it make if you are losing anyway? Maybe it would do some good to loosen up the troops, lighten the load, take off some pressure.

I question some of what RM does, but I'm willing to defer to his judgment for the time being. If we're struggling next year then RM will have a lot of questions to answer based on the level of talent and the experience of his roster.

[Westy03]

I question some of what RM does, but I'm willing to defer to his judgment for the time being. If we're struggling next year then RM will have a lot of questions to answer based on the level of talent and the experience of his roster.

+1 Couldnt agree more.

[HusakAttack]

I question some of what RM does, but I'm willing to defer to his judgment for the time being. If we're struggling next year then RM will have a lot of questions to answer based on the level of talent and the experience of his roster.

Agreed, not to mention I like how easy the Bills are to make money in Vegas on with the low scoring games. DOnt change anything!

[Bay Area Billiken]

I question some of what RM does, but I'm willing to defer to his judgment for the time being. If we're struggling next year then RM will have a lot of questions to answer based on the level of talent and the experience of his roster.

So do we just grin and bear it, lose 20+ games, not make the A-10 Tournament, and chalk it all up to experience? Not me, I'm getting too old for this perpetual wait until next year stuff.

I think the players might well do better playing more up tempo. A guy like Mike McCall has high school experience playing that way. Coach Majerus said in the off-season that he wanted to play more up tempo. But the existing players seem to be bogged down in the system.

Again, I support the Coach. I want him to succeed. But thanks to The Situation, this team is struggling. Why not do some tinkering with the offensive and defensive systems? How can that hurt? It might help. What do we have to lose?

[Westy03]

So do we just grin and bear it, lose 20+ games, not make the A-10 Tournament, and chalk it all up to experience? Not me, I'm getting too old for this perpetual wait until next year stuff.

I think the players might well do better playing more up tempo. A guy like Mike McCall has high school experience playing that way. Coach Majerus said in the off-season that he wanted to play more up tempo. But the existing players seem to be bogged down in the system.

Again, I support the Coach. I want him to succeed. But thanks to The Situation, this team is struggling. Why not do some tinkering with the offensive and defensive systems? How can that hurt? It might help. What do we have to lose?

The only reason why we have been close in the majority of the games is because we slow it down as much as possible. If we played more up tempo it would be even more ugly. Trying different things might help with a few possessions but when you dont have the horses its not going to make much of difference

[Bobby Metzinger]

There are over 300 ballplayers rated by some services. Kansas, Duke, Kentucky, and North Carolina can't get them all.

There are McDonald's All-Americans riding the pine in Durham, Chapel Hill, Lexington and Lawrence.

Give me an Arby's All-American for Pete sake.

[kevinfootes]

So do we just grin and bear it, lose 20+ games, not make the A-10 Tournament, and chalk it all up to experience? Not me, I'm getting too old for this perpetual wait until next year stuff.

I think the players might well do better playing more up tempo. A guy like Mike McCall has high school experience playing that way. Coach Majerus said in the off-season that he wanted to play more up tempo. But the existing players seem to be bogged down in the system.

Again, I support the Coach. I want him to succeed. But thanks to The Situation, this team is struggling. Why not do some tinkering with the offensive and defensive systems? How can that hurt? It might help. What do we have to lose?

I had the same questions during RM's first season, and it wasn't a 20 loss season. RM doesn't seem to adjust his style of play to the skill set of his roster. However, you could see that he was building something. If it were up to me, I'd make some adjustments. That said, you can't knock RM's history.

Based on what we've seen so far, our best hope for this year is to somehow sneak into the A10 tourney. I'm as disappointed as anyone and hate to see us lose. However, I also see this as a one year deal. If we're struggling to win under RM's system next year, I'll be among the first to question his approach.

[billiken_roy]

for factual basis purposes on team ppg and opponent ppg:

season ... slu ... opponent

07-08 ... 60.1 ... 61.6

08-09 ... 61.8 ... 60.8

09-10 ... 63.4 ... 60.2

current ... 61.1 ... 63.5

not really much of a change in the entire rickma reign regardless of the talent on the roster.

[slufanskip]

We are a defense first team as are many of the most successful coaches in the country and they get good players. It isn't going to change.

Hey Bay Area, of course you want to play uptempo you live on the West Coast. It's a mentality West runs, East smacks you upside your head.

I don't care about this season, just keep learning and building for the future. Yes, the master plan got pushed back a year. Too late to change that.

[slufanskip]

for factual basis purposes on team ppg and opponent ppg:

season ... slu ... opponent

07-08 ... 60.1 ... 61.6

08-09 ... 61.8 ... 60.8

09-10 ... 63.4 ... 60.2

current ... 61.1 ... 63.5

not really much of a change in the entire rickma reign regardless of the talent on the roster.

One thing I do notice is the scoring differential had gotten better every year. From -.5 to +1 to plus 3.4. This year is a hickup, want to bet it goes up again next year?

[Bay Area Billiken]

The only reason why we have been close in the majority of the games is because we slow it down as much as possible. If we played more up tempo it would be even more ugly. Trying different things might help with a few possessions but when you dont have the horses its not going to make much of difference

At this point, I'll settle for some zone defense against selected teams that can't hit outside shots- like Bowling Green. I watched that game, and am admittedly just a fan. But that one screamed out to me for a zone. Ironically, Bowling Green played a zone against SLU.

On offense, I'd like a little more dribble penetration from the guards. This ball screen offense seems good in theory. But the problem is the shooting woes.

I'll table my request for more up tempo for now, if we can get some minimal tinkering. I'm not saying to scrap the systems completely.

Also, my recollection is that Majerus' Utah teams scored points, didn't slow the ball down that much- save and except for the 48-45 NCAA Tournament victory over SLU in Cleveland in SLU's last NCAA Tournament appearance. I was at that one. SLU largely lost that game at the free throw line, going something like 9-22. What else is new?