OT: USMNT

[moytoy12]

4 more years of Bob Bradley. Sigh...

[For-DaLove]

We weren't gonna shell out the cash to land a big name, so why not keep some stability? Bob Bradley is a decent coach, who seems to have the respect of the team, which is huge.

[slufanskip]

I'm not the biggest Bradley fan, but not real a hater either, so I'm ok with it. I think the bigger issue would be what kind of changes do we make to our development program. Imo until we get develop players who are as skilled on the ball and have the feel for the game as the best players in the world, we'll always be in a situation where the only way we win is to out work teams.

[Bizziken]

I'm not the biggest Bradley fan, but not real a hater either, so I'm ok with it. I think the bigger issue would be what kind of changes do we make to our development program. Imo until we get develop players who are as skilled on the ball and have the feel for the game as the best players in the world, we'll always be in a situation where the only way we win is to out work teams.

With that said, I think a coach like Jurgen Klinsmann could accurately identify those prospects who can play a more 'European style'. I like Bradley, but my biggest problem with him (and his predecessor Bruce Arena) is that they play a defensive brand of soccer. That is NOT going to get it done on the world stage. IMO, 'playing not to lose' is not an effective strategy. I know the U.S. has a problem producing competent strikers, but someone like a Klinsmann, or even a Lalas (even though he was a defender) would emphasize and implement a more complete strategy.

[davidnark]

I'm not the biggest Bradley fan, but not real a hater either, so I'm ok with it. I think the bigger issue would be what kind of changes do we make to our development program. Imo until we get develop players who are as skilled on the ball and have the feel for the game as the best players in the world, we'll always be in a situation where the only way we win is to out work teams.

Bradley doesn't even use the players who are most skilled on the ball. Holden has far superior technical skills to Clark, and yet Bradley favored Clark. Holden has done very well in the center midfield in his limited time in the EPL. The same can be said for any of the forwards (or you and me) versus Findley.

[DirtyRican]

Finstock says never trust a guy with two first names.

[b.hayes]

Got tickets last week for USA v Poland at Soldier Field. Can't wait.

[Bizziken]

Bradley doesn't even use the players who are most skilled on the ball. Holden has far superior technical skills to Clark, and yet Bradley favored Clark. Holden has done very well in the center midfield in his limited time in the EPL. The same can be said for any of the forwards (or you and me) versus Findley.

That pissed me off...it seems like Bradley only favored Clark because of his speed. My gripe was with Benny Feilhaber, who I thought was, by far, the best 4 or 5th option at midfield, and yet, did not earn a start.

As far as at the striker position, I think Findley and Gomez will fade into obscurity once Charlie Davies comes back. I think if Davies AND Dempsey were 100% healthy heading into the world cup, Bradley doesn't even keep Findley and Gomez on the roster.

[slufanskip]

Bradley doesn't even use the players who are most skilled on the ball. Holden has far superior technical skills to Clark, and yet Bradley favored Clark. Holden has done very well in the center midfield in his limited time in the EPL. The same can be said for any of the forwards (or you and me) versus Findley.

I don't disagree with what your saying. Like I said, I'm indifferent on Bradley. I'm not a fan of playing defensive soccer. What I'm saying though is if the US wants to be a consistent world player we have to start producing players with more technical ability on a more consistent basis. We can discuss all we want whether Holden or perhaps Fielhaber should have played instead of Clark, but it's missing the more important issue of what is holding us back.

Name the top 20 players in the world, any Americans? how about top 30? top 40? when does the first US player come in?

Even though we didn't have a forward score a goal at the WC, the bigger issue was us giving up easy goals. Without a healthy Gooch we had no depth. DeMeritt isn't a world class central defender. We have no speed on the back line at all. Our back line was consistently out of position.

We have no truly world class forwards, Jozy may still become one, but he's got a long way yo go. With him not playing at 100% where did that leave us?

[davidnark]

I don't disagree with what your saying. Like I said, I'm indifferent on Bradley. I'm not a fan of playing defensive soccer. What I'm saying though is if the US wants to be a consistent world player we have to start producing players with more technical ability on a more consistent basis. We can discuss all we want whether Holden or perhaps Fielhaber should have played instead of Clark, but it's missing the more important issue of what is holding us back.

Name the top 20 players in the world, any Americans? how about top 30? top 40? when does the first US player come in?

Even though we didn't have a forward score a goal at the WC, the bigger issue was us giving up easy goals. Without a healthy Gooch we had no depth. DeMeritt isn't a world class central defender. We have no speed on the back line at all. Our back line was consistently out of position.

We have no truly world class forwards, Jozy may still become one, but he's got a long way yo go. With him not playing at 100% where did that leave us?

What is a bit perplexing to me is that when Donovan, Beasley, and their peers were playing under-20 soccer, they were literally among the top players in the world for their age. What happened to them relative to their foreign counterparts over the last 10 years?

I do believe it is just a matter of time until the US produces several of the top players in the world. The sport is becoming so popular in the US. There is hardly a day in which I don't see kids-and not just white suburban kids-wearing jerseys from top clubs. When I played as a kid 25 or 30 years ago we were taught to pass and shoot. Now I watch my kids, who are just learning the sport, learn the technical skills I didn't even get exposure to as a kid. We have a lot of work to go as a soccer nation, but we are progressing rapidly.

[moytoy12]

I don't disagree with what your saying. Like I said, I'm indifferent on Bradley. I'm not a fan of playing defensive soccer. What I'm saying though is if the US wants to be a consistent world player we have to start producing players with more technical ability on a more consistent basis. We can discuss all we want whether Holden or perhaps Fielhaber should have played instead of Clark, but it's missing the more important issue of what is holding us back.

Name the top 20 players in the world, any Americans? how about top 30? top 40? when does the first US player come in?

Even though we didn't have a forward score a goal at the WC, the bigger issue was us giving up easy goals. Without a healthy Gooch we had no depth. DeMeritt isn't a world class central defender. We have no speed on the back line at all. Our back line was consistently out of position.

We have no truly world class forwards, Jozy may still become one, but he's got a long way yo go. With him not playing at 100% where did that leave us?

Skip, I don't disagree. But with our limited player pool (as compared to the top tier teams) we need a coach that is excellent in getting the right 11 guys on the field in the right formation. I don't trust Bradley to do this at all.

Bob Bradley is Brad Soderberg. A good guy, hard worker, but probably out of his depth, especially with a team that doesn't have the depth to be a consistent top tier team.

And yes, the US Soccer Federation deserves a lot of criticism too. From not opening up the wallet for a top coach to its pay-to-play ODP bullsh*t club system. Much like Biondi had to change to allow progress, the USSF will also have to change.

[slufanskip]

What is a bit perplexing to me is that when Donovan, Beasley, and their peers were playing under-20 soccer, they were literally among the top players in the world for their age. What happened to them relative to their foreign counterparts over the last 10 years?

I do believe it is just a matter of time until the US produces several of the top players in the world. The sport is becoming so popular in the US. There is hardly a day in which I don't see kids-and not just white suburban kids-wearing jerseys from top clubs. When I played as a kid 25 or 30 years ago we were taught to pass and shoot. Now I watch my kids, who are just learning the sport, learn the technical skills I didn't even get exposure to as a kid. We have a lot of work to go as a soccer nation, but we are progressing rapidly.

Of course we are getting better. Beasley had potential written all over him, but he never had any touch on the ball. If you're learning that at 18 years old, it's too late. After watching him for 2 games when he was young, I knew he'd never be a great player. Donovan is a good player, but a major part of his talent is his speed and hustle. He's not a very technical player. Imo the most skilled player the US has with the ball at his feet is Dempsey, but he doesn't know what to do with it. He's not good at sharing. The US players as a whole do not receive the ball well. They are always playing in a hurry, chasing the ball instead of controlling it.

There was an article a few months back that outlined what I think and have been saying for a while. The culture of training kids to develop technical ability and feel for the game is wrong. Our best kids play far too many games and spend far less time training. Too much emphasis is put on winning. Seriously, I could go on for hours on my thoughts on what is wrong with the way we develop players.

[moytoy12]

And to add on, was Ghana or Uruguay that much more talented than the U.S.? Those were the 2 teams preventing a semi-final appearance and I don't think they had much more collective skill in their first 11-14 players than we had.

We already know Bob's ceiling. To me, Klinsman's floor and Bob's ceiling are one-in-the-same.

[slufanskip]

Skip, I don't disagree. But with our limited player pool (as compared to the top tier teams) we need a coach that is excellent in getting the right 11 guys on the field in the right formation. I don't trust Bradley to do this at all.

Bob Bradley is Brad Soderberg. A good guy, hard worker, but probably out of his depth, especially with a team that doesn't have the depth to be a consistent top tier team.

And yes, the US Soccer Federation deserves a lot of criticism too. From not opening up the wallet for a top coach to its pay-to-play ODP bullsh*t club system. Much like Biondi had to change to allow progress, the USSF will also have to change.

I would have been ok with a change, in fact, I'd probably have preffered it. However, I don't think keeping Bradley is all that bad of an option either.

I just don't believe making a couple of player changes would have made us any better. Clark of course had a terrible WC, but in Bradleys defense we knew we were weak in the middle defensively, and I think he probably felt he couldn't go with a more offensive minded player in that position. Imo Maurice Edu would have been a better choice. He gives you the same defense as Clark with a little more offensive ability.

How easily we forget though that it was Bob Bradley that had the team playing over it's head and beating Spain in the COnfederations Cup in '09.

[slufanskip]

And to add on, was Ghana or Uruguay that much more talented than the U.S.? Those were the 2 teams preventing a semi-final appearance and I don't think they had much more collective skill in their first 11-14 players than we had.

We already know Bob's ceiling. To me, Klinsman's floor and Bob's ceiling are one-in-the-same.

I guess my point is this, would a different coach have possibly helped us win 1 more game? maybe. However, didn't we go to the quarters in '02 and then get quickly booted in '06? I want the guy in charge at whatever level it needs to be that revamps the entire system. Until we do that, we'll continue to put out high effort teams that can have a good run occasionally but can't sustain consistent success.

[SLUBALLS]

"What is a bit perplexing to me is that when Donovan, Beasley, and their peers were playing under-20 soccer, they were literally among the top players in the world for their age. What happened to them relative to their foreign counterparts over the last 10 years?"

Those other world class players weren't playing U20 ball; they were already with the top clubs in the world. Outside the US, the national team is second fiddle as far as aspriations when you compare it to earning millions with a club. The only similarity we have here is our basketball; kids don't grow up wishing to play for the national team, they want to play for the NBA first and foremost.

I'm perplexed as to why the semi-hate toward Bradley? In his time, the team won the Gold Cup, beat #1 Spain, took it to Brazil in the Confed Finals, and was able to make it to the second round of the World Cup. Yes we wanted more from the latter (thank you Davies for violating curfew), but in all I think at minimum he's earned the right to retain the position.

I'm reading another fantastic book by Jonathan Wilson called Anatomy of England. He looks back at ten matches in their history and how they defined the ups and downs that is English football. Very interesting read. I highly recommend his other book Inverting the Pyramid as well.

[moytoy12]

I would have been ok with a change, in fact, I'd probably have preffered it. However, I don't think keeping Bradley is all that bad of an option either.

I just don't believe making a couple of player changes would have made us any better. Clark of course had a terrible WC, but in Bradleys defense we knew we were weak in the middle defensively, and I think he probably felt he couldn't go with a more offensive minded player in that position. Imo Maurice Edu would have been a better choice. He gives you the same defense as Clark with a little more offensive ability.

How easily we forget though that it was Bob Bradley that had the team playing over it's head and beating Spain in the COnfederations Cup in '09.

And let's not forget how we beat Spain, we bunkered and prayed. 9 times out of 10, we lose that game, even playing that strategy. Also, let's not forget that the US was a late Donovan goal away from not advancing.

I think keeping Bradley is a safe option that doesn't move us forward at all. There just seems to be no upside to the decision. Or very small upside.

[SluSignGuy]

I am not going to lie. It took me a while to figure out what this thread was about. I thought we may of had a game against some team called USMNT

[slufanskip]

And let's not forget how we beat Spain, we bunkered and prayed. 9 times out of 10, we lose that game, even playing that strategy. Also, let's not forget that the US was a late Donovan goal away from not advancing.

I think keeping Bradley is a safe option that doesn't move us forward at all. There just seems to be no upside to the decision. Or very small upside.

We beat Spain and Bradley was the coach. It's not fair to take the wins and devalue them because of what ifs if you aren't going to take the losses and give them more value because this or that may have occured.

Again, We don't have the players to win consistently at the level of the WC. We work hard on the field and we are scrappy so we are going to win some games against better teams, but we are going to do it consistently no matter who the coach is. One coach may have done something different in one game that may have gotten a win, but perhaps he'd also have done something different in another game that would have changed a win to a loss.

[Bizziken]

Look at this past World Cup. Despite some disappointments, all of the major teams had PROMINENT ex-players coaching their teams...

England- Fabio Capello- played primarily for Juventus, and a little for Milan

Spain- Vicente DelBosque- played for Real Madrid

Italy- Marcello Lippi- played for Sampdoria (major Italian team back in the day)

Brazil- Dunga- played for Fiorentina

Argentina- Diego Maradona- nuff said

Netherlands- Bert van Maarwijk- played for Maastricht (a major team in Dutch soccer in the day)

France- Raymond Domenech- played for Lyon

The only arguable exception is Germany's Jogi Loew...who still played for German top-flight Freiburg...

When quality teams are searching for new managers, one of the qualifications seems to be playing experience.

Bob Bradley played for Princeton. The last time I looked, Princeton was not a world-class soccer institution. Conversely, both Alexei Lalas and Jurgen Klinsmann both have had extensive club and National Team careers. Either of those two would have been a progressive choice.

Additionally, I believe the reluctance for the United States Soccer Federation to choose a coach born outside of the United States is only hindering our domestic soccer growth. Countries that are looking to upgrade their level of soccer (Greece, Ghana, Croatia, and Russia-to name a few), look abroad, or to ex-players for their national team coaches.

To me, the continuance of Bob Bradley as the national team coach reinforces our simple minded approach to the game.

While our players may not be world class, teams like Uruguay in 2010, and Greece in 2004 prove that talent can only take you so far.

[moytoy12]

We beat Spain and Bradley was the coach. It's not fair to take the wins and devalue them because of what ifs if you aren't going to take the losses and give them more value because this or that may have occured.

Again, We don't have the players to win consistently at the level of the WC. We work hard on the field and we are scrappy so we are going to win some games against better teams, but we are going to do it consistently no matter who the coach is. One coach may have done something different in one game that may have gotten a win, but perhaps he'd also have done something different in another game that would have changed a win to a loss.

It's also proper to put the game in context, as with any win or loss.

We also loss 5-0 to Mexico in the Gold Cup final, but i would add a caveat and note that we lost with our B/C team.

I would disagree with your assertion that we don't have the players to win consistently at the WC level. We have the players to consistently compete and win against the Ghana's, Uruguay's, Slovenia's, Slovakia's, etc. of the world. Outside of the top 8-10 teams, I would expect us to win 5 out of 10 games against most every other WC team.

[moytoy12]

Interview with Tim Ream for those interested: http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2010/08/sbi-mls-spotlight-tim-ream.html

[slufanskip]

It's also proper to put the game in context, as with any win or loss.

We also loss 5-0 to Mexico in the Gold Cup final, but i would add a caveat and note that we lost with our B/C team.

I would disagree with your assertion that we don't have the players to win consistently at the WC level. We have the players to consistently compete and win against the Ghana's, Uruguay's, Slovenia's, Slovakia's, etc. of the world. Outside of the top 8-10 teams, I would expect us to win 5 out of 10 games against most every other WC team.

and isn't that exactly what happened we played .500 soccer. And take away a very poor call and we finish 2-1-1. We finished 1-1-2. Was the loss to Ghana dissapointing? Yes, it was. However, we won our group and made the final 16. Imo that's exactly where our talent leaves us.

I'm not a Bradley lover, but I think those thinking that hiring a new coach will somehow lead us into more success than we've had in the past without taking care of our development strategy are mistaken.

[moytoy12]

and isn't that exactly what happened we played .500 soccer. And take away a very poor call and we finish 2-1-1. We finished 1-1-2. Was the loss to Ghana dissapointing? Yes, it was. However, we won our group and made the final 16. Imo that's exactly where our talent leaves us.

Good point.

I'm not a Bradley lover, but I think those thinking that hiring a new coach will somehow lead us into more success than we've had in the past without taking care of our development strategy are mistaken.

If our talent leads us to a top 16 finish, I'd hope better coaching could squeeze out another win or two with that same talent.

At the end of the day, I don't think we disagree that greatly.

[TheA_Bomb]

I wouldn't advocate foreign coaches in most US Teams but Soccer is different. We could benefit from having California Klinsi as our coach. He would bring a different perspective of what it takes to be a winning program. I would be interested in his input on the system not just game to game coaching. That could be the greatest impact.

Jurgen Klinsman ist ganz toll. Bradley leckt eier.

Yeah I said it.