grave overreactions to SIUC game

[jimbofive]

I guess I didn't read it like that. This whole thread, people have been talking about officiating and the atmosphere there. I read his last post not as cause and effect, but more like stream of consciousness, like this:

1. The arena is a dump.

2. We should be crushing these guys every year.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't pick up on the causation. Probably could have used a paragraph break. But no, the arena itself is not the reason we're losing there.

It does serve to piss you off more when we do lose there. Like taking your girlfriend over to some mongo's $h!thole apartment and watching him just give her the business on top of a bunch of pizza boxes and dog food bags when you just bought a new loft downtown.

[Pistol]

It does serve to piss you off more when we do lose there. Like taking your girlfriend over to some mongo's $h!thole apartment and watching him just give her the business on top of a bunch of pizza boxes and dog food bags when you just bought a new loft downtown.

Ha, I couldn't have said it any better. SIU has built a nice program and I don't want to take any credit away from that, but those renovations can't come soon enough. Honestly, they should just build a new one instead of renovating- I never understood why basketball arenas had circular designs.

Playing there is kind of like playing in the Thunderdome from the Mad Max sequels- dim lighting, dirty, dusty, dated, and thousands of screaming seedy characters. It does just feel nasty.

[cardfan]

I guess I didn't read it like that. This whole thread, people have been talking about officiating and the atmosphere there. I read his last post not as cause and effect, but more like stream of consciousness, like this:

1. The arena is a dump.

2. We should be crushing these guys every year.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't pick up on the causation. Probably could have used a paragraph break. But no, the arena itself is not the reason we're losing there.

I completely agree, the place is disgusting. There isn't once piece of architectual significance in the entire place. It surprises me year after year that they continue to bring in top recruits from the area. The campus itself is very nice and they had some key alumni donations to build new training facilites. The renovations to the football stadium and arena are slated to be completed by 2010, but I'm the type that only believe it once they see it.

[moytoy12]

I completely agree, the place is disgusting. There isn't once piece of architectual significance in the entire place. It surprises me year after year that they continue to bring in top recruits from the area. The campus itself is very nice and they had some key alumni donations to build new training facilites. The renovations to the football stadium and arena are slated to be completed by 2010, but I'm the type that only believe it once they see it.

Does the football program bring in any money for the sports programs (if you happen to know)?

[RB2.0]

Does the football program bring in any money for the sports programs (if you happen to know)?

Oh Kool-aid drinkers of Billiken land. Always blaming the refs, ripping the Valley (despite its dominance over the A-10 and the idiotic decision to join it), and not realizing that while we have talent and a future (I'm more confident then any year under Brad S.), we SUCK this year. Liddell is a huge disappointment, Lisch, for whatever reason, isn't playing up to his potential, no matter how scrappy he is, and the Brad S. years have decimated the program beyond recognition.

We are back on the right track with Rick Ma and the stadium and the new recruits, but this year, we blooooooooow.

[GoBills]

Oh Kool-aid drinkers of Billiken land. Always blaming the refs, ripping the Valley (despite its dominance over the A-10 and the idiotic decision to join it), and not realizing that while we have talent and a future (I'm more confident then any year under Brad S.), we SUCK this year. Liddell is a huge disappointment, Lisch, for whatever reason, isn't playing up to his potential, no matter how scrappy he is, and the Brad S. years have decimated the program beyond recognition.

We are back on the right track with Rick Ma and the stadium and the new recruits, but this year, we blooooooooow.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good story jr. Just last year the A-10 was rated higher than the Valley.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Oh Kool-aid drinkers of Billiken land. Always blaming the refs, ripping the Valley (despite its dominance over the A-10 and the idiotic decision to join it), and not realizing that while we have talent and a future (I'm more confident then any year under Brad S.), we SUCK this year. Liddell is a huge disappointment, Lisch, for whatever reason, isn't playing up to his potential, no matter how scrappy he is, and the Brad S. years have decimated the program beyond recognition.

We are back on the right track with Rick Ma and the stadium and the new recruits, but this year, we blooooooooow.

(All together now...) WE?

[billiken_roy]

Oh Kool-aid drinkers of Billiken land. Always blaming the refs, ripping the Valley (despite its dominance over the A-10 and the idiotic decision to join it)

you do know that the mvc has only had a combined rpi better than the a-10 like 3 times in history?

[RB2.0]

you do know that the mvc has only had a combined rpi better than the a-10 like 3 times in history?

The point I was making was in terms of geographic rivalries, not necessary who is up and who is down in any particular year. The A-10 doesn't lend itself well to natural rivalries based on proximity.

[billiken_roy]

The point I was making was in terms of geographic rivalries, not necessary who is up and who is down in any particular year. The A-10 doesn't lend itself well to natural rivalries based on proximity.

geography is not the only reason to a "rivalry". give me st joes, dayton and xaiver over any school in the mvc as a rival any day.

[RB2.0]

geography is not the only reason to a "rivalry". give me st joes, dayton and xaiver over any school in the mvc as a rival any day.

Not one of those are rivals for us...nor do they have any potential to be...except maybe Xavier, despite the fact they have Cincy and Dayton as more natural rivals. We would be a 3rd string rival at best.

Look at all major rivalries in college sports. All are in the same division (Michigan/Ohio St., Duke/NC, USC/UCLA). Hardly ever in college sports is a team's "rival" 1,000 miles away. It was poor decision on so many levels to join the A-10 (travel, financially, TV, etc, etc, etc), even if they are playing slightly better then the MVC. I'd much rather cultivate an inter-confrence rivalry with SIU-C or Missouri St. or something like that as they are our only realistic rivals. Fans could travel to opponents stadiums and folks in the St. Louis area (many who have gone to MVC schools) would actually have some interest in the conference games.

Seriously, outside of us on the board, I can count on one hand who has interest in a SLU-LaSalle, SLU-Richmond, SLU-St. Bonnies, SLU-Fordham game. Even if we are playing a low level MVC team such as Illinois St-SLU, I guarentee there are at least a few St. Louis residents from ISU to be interested in the game.

[moytoy12]

Not one of those are rivals for us...nor do they have any potential to be...except maybe Xavier, despite the fact they have Cincy and Dayton as more natural rivals. We would be a 3rd string rival at best.

Look at all major rivalries in college sports. All are in the same division (Michigan/Ohio St., Duke/NC, USC/UCLA). Hardly ever in college sports is a team's "rival" 1,000 miles away. It was poor decision on so many levels to join the A-10 (travel, financially, TV, etc, etc, etc), even if they are playing slightly better then the MVC. I'd much rather cultivate an inter-confrence rivalry with SIU-C or Missouri St. or something like that as they are our only realistic rivals. Fans could travel to opponents stadiums and folks in the St. Louis area (many who have gone to MVC schools) would actually have some interest in the conference games.

Seriously, outside of us on the board, I can count on one hand who has interest in a SLU-LaSalle, SLU-Richmond, SLU-St. Bonnies, SLU-Fordham game. Even if we are playing a low level MVC team such as Illinois St-SLU, I guarentee there are at least a few St. Louis residents from ISU to be interested in the game.

thank god, another MVC v. A-10 debate. I was starting to miss it.

[Clock_Tower]

Not one of those are rivals for us...nor do they have any potential to be...except maybe Xavier, despite the fact they have Cincy and Dayton as more natural rivals. We would be a 3rd string rival at best.

Look at all major rivalries in college sports. All are in the same division (Michigan/Ohio St., Duke/NC, USC/UCLA). Hardly ever in college sports is a team's "rival" 1,000 miles away. It was poor decision on so many levels to join the A-10 (travel, financially, TV, etc, etc, etc), even if they are playing slightly better then the MVC. I'd much rather cultivate an inter-confrence rivalry with SIU-C or Missouri St. or something like that as they are our only realistic rivals. Fans could travel to opponents stadiums and folks in the St. Louis area (many who have gone to MVC schools) would actually have some interest in the conference games.

Seriously, outside of us on the board, I can count on one hand who has interest in a SLU-LaSalle, SLU-Richmond, SLU-St. Bonnies, SLU-Fordham game. Even if we are playing a low level MVC team such as Illinois St-SLU, I guarentee there are at least a few St. Louis residents from ISU to be interested in the game.

You're right, if only we can jump start those natural rivalries with Drake, N. Iowa, Indiana State, Evansville and Witchita State as well. As you point out, I'd bet that there are at least 8 St. Louisans who would like a game (Home and Away) each year against Illinois State as well. Then, we can maybe play them again in the Conference Tournament. 3 times per year against these teams!! THEN, as you mention, we'd be on par with Duke and North Carolina and all of the other key matchups..... at least we can dream.

Long term, this would be great for St.LHoops as well as then we'd really have a long term recruiting battle trying to snag a diamond in the rough after the BCS schools finish recruiting.

BTW, did you know that we routinely played and were rivals of Memphis, Louisville, Cincy, DePaul and Marquette? I know they don't compare to the Valley schools but maybe they might want to play us again.

[billiken_roy]

i'm always amused when the mvc lovers throw fordham, st bonnies etc at us but then insist we should be begging for the siu and missouri state rivalries.

clock is right on pointing out the nightmare of being stuck with witchita, northern iowa, evansville. pick your poison.

at least with xaiver, dayton, st joes, we have a few schools that are similar in makeup and philosophies. once we get by creighton, nothing in the mvc is attractive beyond geography. and guess what, even geography apparently means little. i was at the closest mvc foes game last week and i didnt even see 100 blue shirts in the sea of maroon. so dont tell me about interested fans in area.

the truth is we have more alumni in cincy, philly and new york combined than probably all the combined school cities of the mvc.

[slufanskip]

i'm always amused when the mvc lovers throw fordham, st bonnies etc at us but then insist we should be begging for the siu and missouri state rivalries.

clock is right on pointing out the nightmare of being stuck with witchita, northern iowa, evansville. pick your poison.

at least with xaiver, dayton, st joes, we have a few schools that are similar in makeup and philosophies. once we get by creighton, nothing in the mvc is attractive beyond geography. and guess what, even geography apparently means little. i was at the closest mvc foes game last week and i didnt even see 100 blue shirts in the sea of maroon. so dont tell me about interested fans in area.

the truth is we have more alumni in cincy, philly and new york combined than probably all the combined school cities of the mvc.

We also don't even draw more at home when we play SIU or Mo State. I'd be curious to know what the attendance figures were the last 3 or 4 years against X and Dayton as compared with SIU and Mo State.

[billiken_roy]

We also don't even draw more at home when we play SIU or Mo State. I'd be curious to know what the attendance figures were the last 3 or 4 years against X and Dayton as compared with SIU and Mo State.

x and dayton beat them every time.

[slufanskip]

x and dayton beat them every time.

Got any actual attendence numbers. I find it hard to believe that X and Dayton can outdraw our natural rivals Mo State and SIU. Maybe it's better for Ill State or Drake.

[Pistol]

Got any actual attendence numbers. I find it hard to believe that X and Dayton can outdraw our natural rivals Mo State and SIU. Maybe it's better for Ill State or Drake.

This is from last season's totals:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/m_basketball/att...ball_attend.pdf

28. Dayton

50. Xavier

54. SLU

72. SIUC

77. Missouri State

100. Drake

101+. Illinois State- not listed because it only goes to 100.

So there you have it. I can't believe the A10-Valley debate still rages on. If only those provincial minds of the Valley lovers could see the big picture.

[Pistol]

Got any actual attendence numbers. I find it hard to believe that X and Dayton can outdraw our natural rivals Mo State and SIU. Maybe it's better for Ill State or Drake.

Upon reading again, you might just be looking for when we play these teams on the road. Fair enough (all figures taken from official box scores):

2008-2009

At SIUC: 6285

2007-2008

At Missouri State: 6126

At Dayton 13435

2006-2007

At SIUC: 7188

At Dayton: 13435 (sellout number)

At Xavier: 9735

2005-2006 (First A10 Season; did not play MO State)

At Xavier: 10060

At Dayton: 13156

2004-2005 (Did not play MO State)

At SIUC: 6621

2003-2004

At Dayton: 12353 (on New Year's Eve! This was a fun one.)

At Missouri State: 6388

Any way you slice it, these are better places for us to go play. Dayton sells out the whole season and plays in a bigger arena than either Carbondale or Springfield. Xavier's capacity is about 10,250 and they almost always have over 9,000, even on weeknights. They sell out big games and season ticket holders in the lower bowl sign 5-year contracts. The fans are going to be there anyway, given how good the program has been for the past two decades.

[bonwich]

This is from last season's totals:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/m_basketball/att...ball_attend.pdf

28. Dayton

50. Xavier

54. SLU

72. SIUC

77. Missouri State

100. Drake

101+. Illinois State- not listed because it only goes to 100.

So there you have it. I can't believe the A10-Valley debate still rages on. If only those provincial minds of the Valley lovers could see the big picture.

I don't believe those are the stats Skip was looking for.

2008:

Dayton 11108

SIU 10918

Xavier 10823

2007:

Xavier 10861

Dayton 8847

(it doesn't appear we played Mo. State at home in 2007, and SIU was on the road)

[Pistol]

I don't believe those are the stats Skip was looking for.

2008:

Dayton 11108

SIU 10918

Xavier 10823

2007:

Xavier 10861

Dayton 8847

(it doesn't appear we played Mo. State at home in 2007, and SIU was on the road)

Where did you get these numbers from?

[bonwich]

Box scores from the Almanac link on slubillikens.com.

[slufanskip]

I don't believe those are the stats Skip was looking for.

2008:

Dayton 11108

SIU 10918

Xavier 10823

2007:

Xavier 10861

Dayton 8847

(it doesn't appear we played Mo. State at home in 2007, and SIU was on the road)

Well then it must be Ill State or maybe Drake from the MVC that would be our great Rival. I don't see why people think we would have better rivalries with the MVC. We've been playing those teams for years and no one gives a $hit.

[Postcard]

Well then it must be Ill State or maybe Drake from the MVC that would be our great Rival. I don't see why people think we would have better rivalries with the MVC. We've been playing those teams for years and no one gives a $hit.

I would say that Creighton and SIUC are pretty good rivals although they're fairly far away from each other, and share different philosophies. But they are in the same conference and play each other at least twice a year and have been competing for the top spot in said conference for a number of years. Rivalaries just don't instantly happen. Part of the reason SLU doesn't have one is because they haven't been in the same conference for very long. It's hard to see how they'll develop a true rival in this conference. I certainly think the geography of the MVC could help create some natural rivals for the Bills but that has been discussed numerous times in the past.

To say that because SIU or MO ST don't draw as well as Xavier or Dayton means that they couldn't become good rivals is nonsense.

[slufanskip]

I would say that Creighton and SIUC are pretty good rivals although they're fairly far away from each other, and share different philosophies. But they are in the same conference and play each other at least twice a year and have been competing for the top spot in said conference for a number of years. Rivalaries just don't instantly happen. Part of the reason SLU doesn't have one is because they haven't been in the same conference for very long. It's hard to see how they'll develop a true rival in this conference. I certainly think the geography of the MVC could help create some natural rivals for the Bills but that has been discussed numerous times in the past.

To say that because SIU or MO ST don't draw as well as Xavier or Dayton means that they couldn't become good rivals is nonsense.

We've been playing them both for a long time and the fans from both teams are indifferent, what makes you think they will all of a sudden become a rivalry?