Why Not MVC

[jkc]

I'm a Tiger fan that lives in St. Louis, so I admit that i normally only follow the billikens with a passing interest. But I'm curious what SLU fans feel about SLU moving to the MVC instead of the A-10.

Don't you think the MVC would be a better fit for SLU than the A-10? To me...A-10 conference games with SLU would be brutal to watch as I don't really care about A-10 teams and know absolutely nothing about them. I suspect many St. Louisan's would feel the same way. On the other hand there are plenty of potential benefits if SLU goes to the MVC. I can potentially see outstanding regional rivalries with almost **all** of the MVC schools and superb atmostphere with your new on campus arena. Heck, I might even watch SLU games! (I still remember when SLU played Evansville every year and had that great rivalry)

Now, I know money talks, but does the A-10 really offer that much more...and does that really overrule the potential of strong regional rivalries that would exist in the MVC? Wouln't SLU be on the outside looking in when it comes to having things in common with other schools in the A-10? I also see the arguement that the A-10 get's more NCAA tourney teams than the MVC. Wouln't SLU's move to the MVC only strengthen that conference and further solidify the MVC's standing in the world of college basketball (I would argue has already happened the last couple of years).

These are all just questions, I'm curious what you all think.

Sincerely,

Your Friendly Neighborhood Tiger Fan

[CentFLBilliken]

"WHY NOT JUMP IN FRONT OF THE NEAREAST METROLINK TRAIN???"

God PLEASE no more MVC threads! Its finally over.

This is a great day for Billiken basketball. We have guaranteed our viabilty for years to come.

[jkc]

I didn't any MVC threads on the first page and thought I'd ask.

[SLUDrew]

JKC, you make some valid points, but allow me a rebuttal.

First, SLU is trying to position itself as a major player in the long run. There is much speculation that the Big East football schols will split with the basketball only schools and each group will form their own conference. SLU would like to be part of the basketball only league, and I think that if we are playing in a "mid-major" we may get looked over.

The A-10 has much better Universities that the MVC. SLU is a top 100 University and wants to be associated with schools who have similar missions.

The A-10 has a deal with ESPN. Exposure is very appealing.

Speaking of exposure, look at the markets we will be playing in in the A-10 as opposed to the MVC. That will be good for both recruiting and the University as a whole.

[jkc]

from a completely selfish position as a less than full time billiken fan. I might become one if SLU joined the MVC, but I understand your points.

At least the Xavier game would be interesting for me...

[SluSignGuy]

Here is something I wrote, it is a little long (But I did it for a college class where I had to write a "make an arguement" paper. It has a couple of typos and gramatical errors, but my teacher liked it.

Warning, it may be a little dumbed down because it had to be understood by people who don't follow college basketball.

http://www.billikens.com/a10.html

Steve

[davidlee]

I tried opening the Paper Steve did about MVC and got an virus notice from Norton and shut down my IE.

[REALBird]

Well congrats on your invite to join the A-10. I was holding out hope that you guys would end up in the MVC, but I'm not exactly an emotional wreck now that SLU has decided to play East Coast ball.

In the end, I hope your move the A-10 brings you success on the basketball court instead of just a financial windfall. I don't think there could be anything worse than going from a middle of the pack C-USA team, than to go to being a middle of the pack A-10 team.

Teams like Louisville, Marquette, Cincy, Memphis, and to a lesser degree by name alone DePaul aren't shabby schools to finish behind.

But finishing behind Fordham, LaSalle, St. Josephs,St. Bonaventure, and possibly Richmond, instead of Dayton, Xavier, Temple, or UMass would be like taking a step backwards in my opinion.

I guess only time will tell if SLU made the right move "athletically" or if this was all about "financial" profitability. I just hope you guys don't end up being a nomad team like Tulsa who I believe is set to join their 3rd conference since leaving the MVC.

[Box and Won]

You honestly think we would finish behind teams like LaSalle or Fordham? Give me a break. While we may not come out and win the A10, we'll certainly be competitive.

[CentFLBilliken]

"I don't think there could be anything worse than going from a middle of the pack C-USA team, than to go to being a middle of the pack A-10 team."

Put down the crack pipe. The only thing worse would be going from a middle of the pack CUSA team to becoming a Missouri Valley team.

"I guess only time will tell if SLU made the right move "athletically" or if this was all about "financial" profitability."

I dont think we need the gift of time on this one. SLU made the right move athletically and financially.

[SluSignGuy]

I deleted the link for it, but when I scanned it with my Norton, it said it was completely fine. That is odd that something like that would happen. My apologies. Here is the text of the paper:

Steve Rogers

UW20-17

Paper 4

10/20/03

There is a lot of shuffling going on in the world of collegiate sports. Conferences are taking teams from other conferences in order to maximize profits. The Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC) took colleges from the Big East who wants to take teams from Conference USA (C-USA). If that were to happen, the overall quality of the basketball teams in C-USA would decrease dramatically. The Big East did not invite two of the better basketball teams in C-USA, Charlotte 49ers and the Saint Louis University (SLU) Billikens, and those teams still want to be in a good basketball conference. The Atlantic 10, A-10, saw this and they want to invite them to join their conference. Most Billikens fans want SLU to accept the invitation, but some sports fans in the St. Louis area believe that the Missouri Valley Conference (MVC) would be a better conference for SLU instead of the A-10.

The debate is about whether SLU should be in a conference that is more geographically sensible or should they be in a conference with better basketball teams. The MVC consists of schools that are closer to SLU in terms of distance, but it doesn’t offer the same quality of basketball opponents that the A-10 does. Therefore many Billikens fans believe that SLU should move to the A-10 in order to better their chances of reaching the post season. The MVC proponents say that the difference of the quality of the basketball programs between the MVC and the A-10 isn’t as large as SLU fans believe. They also think SLU can reach the post season just as easily in the MVC as they would be able to in the A-10. Despite what the Pro-MVC people believe, the numbers show that there is a difference in quality, and history shows that the Billikens can have rivalries with teams that are not geographically close to them. Therefore SLU would be benefit more if they were in the A-10 instead of the MVC.

The quality of a team is usually judged on whether or not the team makes the post season. The best collegiate basketball post-season tournament is the NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament, also known as “March Madness.” The most important factor for the NCAA Selection Committee when they select teams for “March Madness” is the Rating Percentage Index rankings. The ranking system, commonly referred to as RPI, has three main factors: a team’s record, their opponents’ records (strength of schedule), and their opponents’ opponents’ records. A team wants the best strength of schedule possible because that factor is weighted twice as much as the other two factors in the formula. Typically, conference members play one another at least once a season. If SLU’s fellow conference members are bad teams, SLU’s strength of schedule will go down, therefore decreasing their chances be invited to the tournament.

Due to this fact, SLU wants to be in the best conference possible to better their probability of reaching the post season. The numbers show that the A-10 consistently is the better basketball conference. Over the past three years, the A-10’s overall RPI has ranked in the top ten of all of the conferences. Meanwhile over that same time period the MVC has never been in the top ten. Also during that duration the MVC has only had one year in which its members combined had a winning non-conference record. The non-conference records of the teams in the A-10 when combined have never been below .500 in the past decade. As for the past couple of years, the A-10 had six teams finish with records above .500 each year while the MVC only had four. These numbers are significant because SLU wants their fellow conference members to have good records because they are so influential to SLU’s strength of schedule. If the Billikens want their fellow conference members to be quality teams, the A-10 is the better choice.

The RPI ranking of a team is not the only thing that the NCAA selection committee uses when selecting teams for the tournament. They also judge a team by their good wins and bad losses. A bad loss is typically defined as a game where a team loses to a team with an RPI below 150. The committee takes bad losses very seriously. They have never allowed a team into the tournament that had more than one loss to teams with RPIs below 200. An example of this is when Southwest Missouri State, a MVC team, had a very good RPI ranking, lost to University of Missouri-Kansas City and Illinois St., another MVC team. Both of those teams hand rankings below 200. SLU does not want those unfortunate circumstances to happen to them. It would be more likely for them to happen if SLU moved to the MVC. Four of the ten MVC teams were ranked below 200 in 2002-03. If SLU were to move to a restructured A-10, only one of twelve teams in that conference would have a ranking below 200 in 2002-03. SLU has to play every team in their conference at least once, so if SLU were in the A-10 the odds of them losing to two teams with a ranking worse than 200 are much slimmer than if they were in the MVC simply because they would play less teams with 200 or worse RPIs.

MVC proponents also argue that none of this matters because it has been proven that teams in the MVC can get into the post-season just as easily as teams in the new A-10. History tells a different story. Last year the new A-10 had six teams reach the post-season compared to the MVC having two. The year before that it was seven to two. The larger number of bids that the A-10 gets is not only good because of the quality of competition, but it is also good for SLU financially. When a team makes the NCAA Tournament, their conference is rewarded money from the NCAA. That money is then redistributed to the conference members. Therefore SLU does not only gain in terms of conference competition, but they gain fiscally because they would be in a conference that gets more tournament bids.

Also, a few make the argument that the lower RPI would not matter since SLU in the MVC could dominate the conference and be assured of the one automatic bid to the tournament that the champion of each conference is allotted. Although to get that automatic bid SLU would have to win the MVC Conference Tournament, which isn’t necessarily a guarantee. There have been plenty of times when a Cinderella team has gotten hot in early March and unexpectedly won the conference tournament. It happens all of the time. SLU was even a Cinderella once in the C-USA Tournament. If a Cinderella team in the MVC would happen to win the tournament, SLU would be stuck with a worse RPI because of the weak opponents that they played, and their odds of getting the in tournament would be diminished.

The most valuable thing that the MVC has to offer SLU is the geography of their conference that can offer regional rivalries. This is the primary argument why many MVC fans believe the MVC is a better conference for SLU instead of the A-10. While this argument has merit, it doesn’t make up for the shortcomings of the MVC in terms of quality. Also, the A-10 is an improvement in terms of geography for SLU when compared to their old conference, C-USA.

Many MVC proponents argue that the A-10 makes no sense for SLU in terms of geography, and that SLU will have to pay more in travel costs if they were in the A-10. While it may be true that SLU would have to pay more in travel costs in the A-10 than they would if they were in the MVC, but SLU wouldn’t be paying more than what they are now in their current conference, Conference USA. C-USA has teams all over the place. Teams are as far south as Texas and Florida, north as Chicago and Wisconsin, and east as Greenville, NC. The A-10 is more centralized which makes more geographic sense than being in C-USA. As for the issue of travel costs, an anonymous source from SLU’s Athletic Department stated in an e-mail that the travel costs of the A-10 “is very comparable to C-USA travel from an expense point of view.” Therefore SLU would not be losing any money in terms of travel costs if they were to move the MVC. Also if SLU goes to the A-10 they aren’t completely without regional rivalries.

SLU’s history shows that they will be able to have rivalries with teams in the A-10. One example is Xavier, an A-10 team, who SLU had a fierce rivalry with in the early ‘90s when both teams were in the same conference. If they were reunited in the A-10 that rivalry could redevelop. Also Dayton, another A-10 team, isn’t extremely far from St. Louis, so a regional conference rivalry could easily develop with them. Plus SLU would just be further developing a rivalry with them because they have already played them yearly for a number of years. In addition SLU could continue to develop a rivalry with Charlotte if they both moved to the A-10. Therefore, the A-10 is not without potential conference rivalries for SLU.

SLU can also develop regional rivalries with teams through their twelve to fifteen non-conference games. SLU already does this by yearly playing two of the better teams in the MVC, SMS and Southern Illinois, and they are also hoping to have a yearly game with the University of Missouri. SLU develops a win-win situation by using their non-conference games to create regional rivalries. Not only are those rivalries developing, but they are also improving their RPI by playing only the better teams in the region. This way they do not have to be subjected to playing the worse teams as they would if they were in the MVC, which would hurt their strength of schedule.

The MVC may make more geographic sense for SLU, but the benefits that come from the geography of the conference do not outweigh the negatives of the weaker competition it brings. The highest priority for SLU is getting into the NCAA Tournament and eventually getting a national championship. The MVC’s weak competition would hurt SLU’s RPI and diminish their chances of getting into the tournament. For the goals that SLU wants to achieve, the A-10 is the best conference available to SLU.

WORKS CITED

CollegeRPI.com 2002. Palm Sports Resources, Inc. 20 Oct. 2003 .

Anonymous. “Re: Question regarding A10 and MVC.” E-mail to Steve Rogers. 15 Oct. 2003.

[SluSignGuy]

I made my paper an HTML File, therefore, no way a virus can be there (From what I know). So here is the link

http://www.billikens.com/a10.html

Steve

[billiken_roy]

i think the tone of your post is one that is reasonable and deserves an appropriate answer even if we have beaten it to death her.

you have two big points you try to make. one you think the money and revenue isnt that much more. i beg to differ. go to http://www1.ncaa.org/finance/7-yr_conf_summaries/basketball

here you will see that at the current rate, the a-10 takes approx $4.7 mill per year from tourney revenues. the mvc is at $2.4 mill. quite a difference imo.

second you make the point about rivalries. if what you are saying is true, then why are the siu and sms games not big annual sellers? the fact is they dont draw any more fans than tulane and houston brings in. each year the big draws are the national programs that visit. if you look at the largest attended games at the savvis or at the dome you will find missouri, illinois, kansas, cincy, louisville and umass at the top. not siu and sms.

the other issues besides revenue and attendance that come into play that nudge to the a-10 is strength of schedule. the mvc has gradually dropped over the last 5 years to 14th ranked conference overall. and that is with creighton and siu probably at their all-time high that i suspect will now begin to level off. the a-10 is annually ranked right there in the 8-9 spot with conference usa. overall, the teams in the a-10 are much stronger from top to bottom than the mvc. if slu is ever going to become a top 25 program, the only way to do that is to play a top schedule. the first step to accomplishing that is as strong of a conference as possible. thus advantage a-10.

last you have the prospect of trying to sell national programs to trade home games for great out of conference games. the fact is the mvc does not attract these games. you will be hard pressed to list more than 5 games over the last few years on the home court of the mvc teams vs national programs. slu has had missouri, illinois, kansas, umass, ucla, usc, and this year arizona visit st louis.

the only down is the travel. there is no denying that every road trip is a true trip. but it isnt like all the destinations in the mvc are easy to get to. i have asked before and no one has told me, is there even a flight to the likes of cedar rapids carbondale, or evansville? i dont know. and if that means 4 hour bus rides for the team, what is the difference between that and a 4 hour plane ride to providence? cost isnt an issue because the increased revenues offset it.

visit often. we dont mind civil visits from tiger fans. but the condenscending visits from tiger fans arent as nice and arent returned well either.

[billiken_roy]

great job steve! i should have read down to this post before writing my above response. you covered everything very well. i assume this was an A!

[cheeseman]

I can assure you that you can fly to Providence even with the airport hassles in less than 4 hours. A four hour bus ride to the middle of nowhere in the winter can be a major problem and certainly does not impress young people who we would be recruiting. Roy is correct - the games we play with MVC teams do not draw that well so that arguement is simply a false perception. If I was a prospective recruit, having the chance to play in Philly, New York, DC, and get exposure on the east coast has to be a plus - we can complain about the east coast bias but the truth is if we are part of that world we will get more and better exposure particularily if we are successful. I also think that Brad will have access to being able to recruit in the east and that has to be an overall plus. It is not about knocking the MVC but simply recognizing that as a conference it has grown about as much as it can and clearly is not capable of providing SLU with the national stage we need. The truth is if Creighton or SIUC or whoever in the Valley had a chance to go to the A-10 they would absolutely do so. The problem is, they will never get a chance. I also find it interesting that a team like Butler who is stuck in the Horizon Conf. also never got consideration. As much as some of you have knocked CUSA the truth is our affliation with it got us to A-10.

[jkc]

Thanks for the response.

As for condescending Tiger fans, we all have them. SLU has them too... The Boone county vo-tech get's a bit old as well (even when the two schools are always in the same tier acedemically with MU usually rated slightly higher).

Anyway, looks like you're in the A-10. Good luck.

[Tonka]

I think the only arguable point for SLU moving to the MVC would be that it is an ideal fit for just about all of our teams - EXCEPT Men's basketball. And since Men's basketball is what we are talking about here, the thought of going to the MVC makes me shudder. But, like someone said let's not worry about what's not going to happen. If the MVC wanted to make an argument and a play for SLU they should have tried to lure Marquette, Depaul and SLU from Conference USA. Maybe they did, I can't say. They could have also pulled Butler from their conference over as well and then with Creighton, Marquette, Depaul, Butler, SIU, and SLU in that conference it wouldn't have been too bad. We then would be in a conference with similar schools and athletic departments as ours, the proximity would have been nice, we would host the Conference Tournament, and it would have been a good fit for all of our sports. Oh well, I'm still glad it's not happening.

As far as somebody's comment about it being a great day for the Billiken program, can you clarify that for me. I certainly don't see this as a great thing. If you look at the options we were given, I guess the best thing happened, but it's not great moving from one conference to a lesser conference. Conference USA was really starting to climb and I hate that this has happened.

As far as all your points about the A-10, you guys make some great points. It's nice to be playing Xavier again as that used to be a great rivalry. Roy, UMass was a big draw, but I think that was because the year they played us here, they were one of the best teams in the nation, it was on ESPN, Dicky V was here, and that entire year we had huge draws because of the Highmark, Claggett, and Waldmann trio. Remember the intensity of that game though? Unfortunately Lou Roe was unbelievable. I think Marcus Camby sat out that game too, due to injury.

[CentFLBilliken]

Conference USA was really starting to climb???? What do you base that on? Its more likely that CUSA peaked. If you believe that Marquette will be going back to the Final Four, you are kidding yourself. Of the so-called power 4 in the conference, none are projected to be any better than they were last year. UAB and Charlotte may make the biggest leaps this year.

I reiterate that this is a great day for SLU. We were on the brink of complete oblivion but now have found a very stable home, with no football politics.

[Tonka]

Cincinnati will always be Cincinnati. You don't think Crean, Callipari, and Pitino would have continued to raise their programs and be contenders year in and year out? SLU is on the rise. UAB is on the rise...

[Scrivener]

...in my humble opinion, the Big XII has its fair share of "clunker" match-ups. Who but the most ardent b-ball fan could ever get a charge out of seeing Texas A&M play Baylor? Or how about Nebraska-Colorado?

On the other hand, I'm kinda looking forward to renewing old rivalries with A-10 teams like Xavier and Dayton. A-10 may not be a perfect fit for the Billikens...but there's enough common ground to stir up some compelling contests.

[thetorch]

Unbelievable.

Friendly Tiger fan admit it, you want SLU in the MVC so it can back uyp tiger fan assertions that we are a mid major program, not worthy of getting good players or having a any media exposure. Really you want us there so the Tigers don't have SLU as competition. Anyway why could you only be a fan of SLU if they were in the MVC? Do you enjoy watching subpar basketball?

Valley fan your jealousy is very apparent. SLU will be a top A-10 team and be a contender for the A-10 title every year. Losing to LaSalle and Fordham???????? I don't think so.