AlumniFan Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 hoophead posts with just enough spelling mistakes and grammatical errors to lead one to believe that he could not possibly be a "journalist". BM screwed up. He will never admit it. So what; he has just confirmed what many of us think about him. I believe that by March we will all be talking about how incredible Tommie is as a basketball player. That is what counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I'm personally in complete disagreement with that. Such an action would most likely dissuade anyone close to the program from contributing. Whether they should, or not, is beside the point, because, if they desire to contribute, then I desire to read what they have to say. So do you think TDELL is ever going to contribute something of consequence again? Do you think any family member that can remember this episode will ever post again? No, deleting the post would have been protecting TDELL from a heat of the moment post that he surely regreted later. Such a deletion would only serve to make it more likely that he'll continue to post in the future because he'll know you have his back if he makes a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 So do you think TDELL is ever going to contribute something of consequence again? Do you think any family member that can remember this episode will ever post again? No, deleting the post would have been protecting TDELL from a heat of the moment post that he surely regreted later. Such a deletion would only serve to make it more likely that he'll continue to post in the future because he'll know you have his back if he makes a mistake. But is it the responsiblity of the moderators to discern between posts made in the "heat of the moment" versus those that are simply strong statements? I think that is a lot to ask of the moderators and removing such posts would be highly subjective which could easily lead to inappropriate and undesired censorship. Where would you draw the line? What if a friend of a player posts? A cousin? A girlfriend? Obviously, it becomes exceedingly complicated. These are adults posting (or loaning their passwords) and they are responsible for their actions. TDELL may or may not be back. I hope he does continue to post, but if you want to place any blame for this incident, I would place it on a highly paid journalist who CLEARLY poured a ton of gasoline on a VERY small spark. If anyone should have known better, it is BM. He made a very poor and lazy decision - which explains why the thread on this was removed from his forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 But is it the responsiblity of the moderators to discern between posts made in the "heat of the moment" versus those that are simply strong statements? I think that is a lot to ask of the moderators and removing such posts would be highly subjective which could easily lead to inappropriate and undesired censorship. Where would you draw the line? What if a friend of a player posts? A cousin? A girlfriend? Obviously, it becomes exceedingly complicated. These are adults posting (or loaning their passwords) and they are responsible for their actions. TDELL may or may not be back. I hope he does continue to post, but if you want to place any blame for this incident, I would place it on a highly paid journalist who CLEARLY poured a ton of gasoline on a VERY small spark. If anyone should have known better, it is BM. He made a very poor and lazy decision - which explains why the thread on this was removed from his forum. I guess at the end of the day it was obvious from the start that this could be a problem because 1) we knew exactly who said it and 2) it was a strong statement. There really wasn't any gray area. If you delete the post and PM the poster of why you did it. Tell him to take 24 hours and if he still thinks its a good idea to make that post then he can. I fully understand not wanting too much censorship but this was so obviously bad for the program and for the poster it should have been nipped in the butt immediately. I don't get blaming BM. All he did was put in print media something that had been floating around the internet. In today's world where the two are mixed quite frequently he really didn't do anything wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billikenfan05 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I guess at the end of the day it was obvious from the start that this could be a problem because 1) we knew exactly who said it and 2) it was a strong statement. There really wasn't any gray area. If you delete the post and PM the poster of why you did it. Tell him to take 24 hours and if he still thinks its a good idea to make that post then he can. I fully understand not wanting too much censorship but this was so obviously bad for the program and for the poster it should have been nipped in the butt immediately.Good idea I like that alot we needed that last year during the bad losses it got pretty crazy on this board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I guess at the end of the day it was obvious from the start that this could be a problem because 1) we knew exactly who said it and 2) it was a strong statement. There really wasn't any gray area. If you delete the post and PM the poster of why you did it. Tell him to take 24 hours and if he still thinks its a good idea to make that post then he can. I fully understand not wanting too much censorship but this was so obviously bad for the program and for the poster it should have been nipped in the butt immediately. I don't get blaming BM. All he did was put in print media something that had been floating around the internet. In today's world where the two are mixed quite frequently he really didn't do anything wrong. I do not get the, "this is done all the time therefore it is ok." I think we as a society need to hold our press to the highest standards. They must be 100% certain. Not pretty sure!! Pretty sure is what got us searching for WMD in Iraq!! Moreover it was inappropriate for his bits. What was his agenda? What is he trying to do? If it was just to spread news hell he could put it in the pressbox, or his blog, but 10 days after the fact when there really was not much more discussed and it was buried in the board was a little odd. Shot disturber = BM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majerus Magic Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I do not get the, "this is done all the time therefore it is ok." I think we as a society need to hold our press to the highest standards. They must be 100% certain. Not pretty sure!! Pretty sure is what got us searching for WMD in Iraq!! Moreover it was inappropriate for his bits. What was his agenda? What is he trying to do? If it was just to spread news hell he could put it in the pressbox, or his blog, but 10 days after the fact when there really was not much more discussed err.......you just compared a war to a message board fiasco........... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 err.......you just compared a war to a message board fiasco........... lol Comparing poor journalism done in both situations. The war is a whole different problem I do not want to get into but I do want to point out how bad accepting poor perfromance for standard is. Mistaking innuendo or supposition for fact can be seriously harmful, yes I take it to an extreme to point out the potential problems of settling for unprofessional behavior simply because others do it every. You missed the point. Perhaps Gandi said it best "An eye for and eye and the whole world goes blind" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Good idea I like that alot we needed that last year during the bad losses it got pretty crazy on this board I'm not suggesting random fans discussing a game should be censored because quite frankly what we say has no meaning. But this was obviously different and thus deserved different treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I do not get the, "this is done all the time therefore it is ok." I think we as a society need to hold our press to the highest standards. They must be 100% certain. Not pretty sure!! Pretty sure is what got us searching for WMD in Iraq!! Moreover it was inappropriate for his bits. What was his agenda? What is he trying to do? If it was just to spread news hell he could put it in the pressbox, or his blog, but 10 days after the fact when there really was not much more discussed and it was buried in the board was a little odd. Shot disturber = BM BM's bits have never been more than little pieces that summarize a lot of the rumors and topics that float around on sports radio and more recently the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majerus Magic Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Comparing poor journalism done in both situations. The war is a whole different problem I do not want to get into but I do want to point out how bad accepting poor perfromance for standard is. Mistaking innuendo or supposition for fact can be seriously harmful, yes I take it to an extreme to point out the potential problems of settling for unprofessional behavior simply because others do it every. You missed the point. Perhaps Gandi said it best "An eye for and eye and the whole world goes blind" I was just kidding man. I don't really think you believe the two situations are similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I guess at the end of the day it was obvious from the start that this could be a problem because 1) we knew exactly who said it and 2) it was a strong statement. There really wasn't any gray area. If you delete the post and PM the poster of why you did it. Tell him to take 24 hours and if he still thinks its a good idea to make that post then he can. I fully understand not wanting too much censorship but this was so obviously bad for the program and for the poster it should have been nipped in the butt immediately. I don't get blaming BM. All he did was put in print media something that had been floating around the internet. In today's world where the two are mixed quite frequently he really didn't do anything wrong. We will just have to agree to disagree on the BM part, but let me put it to you in another, perhaps, analogous context. If the average Joe goes long 30 year Treasuries at 9:00 AM on a day when the Fed is meeting and all of the immediate indications are that inflation is way up, GDP is up, unemployment is very low, firms are capacity constrained, etc., we all say, too bad for Joe, but that's how you learn. However, when a professional trader does the same thing, we say, "Hey, he definitely should have known better". TDELL is not paid to post on this board nor is he expected to maintain any predetermined ethos in his posting. When BM writes, he is doing so as a paid professional who is expected by the society to maintain a certain standard of conduct or, at very least, decorum. In this case, BM failed while TDELL was being either careless with his password or, perhaps, careless with the manner in which he shared his opinion. Apparently, someone managing Bernie's forum on STL Today must have been concerned on some level, otherwise, the thread in question presumably would not have been removed. Other than game threads, I think this is only my third or fourth post in 2007, but it really irks me that Bernie clearly failed to do the work that people expect the rest of us to do in our jobs, yet he seems to largely get away with it. No big deal in the big picture, but it obviously hits enough of a nerve with me to motivate me to address it. If you do not see it the same way, then you are probably either more tolerant of his actions or simply do not think it rises to a level worth addressing. I respect that; I just have a different opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfootes Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I'm personally in complete disagreement with that. Such an action would most likely dissuade anyone close to the program from contributing. Whether they should, or not, is beside the point, because, if they desire to contribute, then I desire to read what they have to say. IMO, this tread has been bad for the program and should have at least been locked by now. A private message to the main parties could have easily explained everything. So you're saying that you desire to read things that are bad for the program? This IS a fan board, why would a fan want to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 IMO, this tread has been bad for the program and should have at least been locked by now. A private message to the main parties could have easily explained everything. So you're saying that you desire to read things that are bad for the program? This IS a fan board, why would a fan want to do that? This thread has been bad for the program? How so? How many times has TDELL posted in this thread? Has anyone who's posted in this thread been someone close enough to the program to post some incriminating information? Hasn't everyone posting in this thread been someone posting an opinion in reaction to the Parrish column? If you're talking about the thread with the original TDELL "I'd rather have Sodie" post, isn't it a bit late to be trying to go back and clean up that mess? I didn't have any thoughts about censoring that post when it first appeared. If Majerus can publicly criticize his players and publicly discipline them, then he can be accountable to allow for public criticism -- regardless of whether that criticism is "right" or "wrong." Brad Soderberg received a LOT of criticism here, and it may have hurt his ability to recruit some players and retain his job, but is this site supposed to be the athletics departments arm of propaganda? It's a fan site: some of us know what we're talking about, and some people don't. Parents of athletes have long desired for more for their offspring than is good for the team; the parent of every Billikens player could be on here complaining about their kid's contributions compared to what they perceive they should be, but it still wouldn't affect how Coach Majerus does his job -- and he knows what he's doing. I don't see it as my job to try to eliminate everything that might concern him or anyone at SLU. The moderators' job is to protect this website, not the SLU program. (Obviously, as fans, we want to see the program succeed, but if an opinion or attitude is expressed here, deleting it here won't eliminate its prevalence in the community at large, where it's far more rampant than it appears to be if you just read this site. We may be disappointed that the presence of Majerus on the sidelines hasn't increased attendance to date, but the fact of the matter is that the typical St. Louis sports fan is unimpressed as of yet. Some still think of SLU as a second-rate, also ran program regardless of the fact that Majerus is here, and many don't believe Majerus will remain more than a year or two.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfootes Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 This thread has been bad for the program? How so? How many times has TDELL posted in this thread? Has anyone who's posted in this thread been someone close enough to the program to post some incriminating information? Hasn't everyone posting in this thread been someone posting an opinion in reaction to the Parrish column? If you're talking about the thread with the original TDELL "I'd rather have Sodie" post, isn't it a bit late to be trying to go back and clean up that mess? I didn't have any thoughts about censoring that post when it first appeared. If Majerus can publicly criticize his players and publicly discipline them, then he can be accountable to allow for public criticism -- regardless of whether that criticism is "right" or "wrong." Brad Soderberg received a LOT of criticism here, and it may have hurt his ability to recruit some players and retain his job, but is this site supposed to be the athletics departments arm of propaganda? It's a fan site: some of us know what we're talking about, and some people don't. Parents of athletes have long desired for more for their offspring than is good for the team; the parent of every Billikens player could be on here complaining about their kid's contributions compared to what they perceive they should be, but it still wouldn't affect how Coach Majerus does his job -- and he knows what he's doing. I don't see it as my job to try to eliminate everything that might concern him or anyone at SLU. The moderators' job is to protect this website, not the SLU program. (Obviously, as fans, we want to see the program succeed, but if an opinion or attitude is expressed here, deleting it here won't eliminate its prevalence in the community at large, where it's far more rampant than it appears to be if you just read this site. We may be disappointed that the presence of Majerus on the sidelines hasn't increased attendance to date, but the fact of the matter is that the typical St. Louis sports fan is unimpressed as of yet. Some still think of SLU as a second-rate, also ran program regardless of the fact that Majerus is here, and many don't believe Majerus will remain more than a year or two.) If national media is citing this website in a manner that is bad for a player on the team, I think the thread should be locked or deleted. I don't think it will happen, but would you be happy if TL left the program in part because of something that happened on this board? Obviously your answer to this question is YES. It would be one thing if TL committed a crime or something like that, but to cause problems for the kid because of a post on here by a guy who claims to be his dad is just wrong. I've seen many threads on this board locked for reasons that are far less important than this one. I guess you're also saying that the board would be a better place if every parent of a player got on here to complain. I didn't intend to make this a criticism of you thicks, but reading your comments makes be wonder about your vision for this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I guess you're also saying that the board would be a better place if every parent of a player got on here to complain. I didn't intend to make this a criticism of you thicks, but reading your comments makes be wonder about your vision for this board.I'm not saying any such thing, and you know it. Have you taken Logic? Moreover, for all we know, the parent of every player could already be here posting. It's not my place to have a vision for this board. I moderate -- lightly -- according to my own sense of propriety, which the owner of the board (the one who maintains the vision) appears to trust. And I don't intend to make this a criticism of you, footes, but if you don't think my performance as a moderator lines up with your vision for this board, you are free to take it up with the adminstrator privately and/or leave the forum (I'm certainly not desiring that you do so). It's impossible to please everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 If national media is citing this website in a manner that is bad for a player on the team, I think the thread should be locked or deleted. I don't think it will happen, but would you be happy if TL left the program in part because of something that happened on this board? Obviously your answer to this question is YES. It would be one thing if TL committed a crime or something like that, but to cause problems for the kid because of a post on here by a guy who claims to be his dad is just wrong. I've seen many threads on this board locked for reasons that are far less important than this one.Once the national media is citing this site (and I think it's debatable whether this publicity is bad for the program -- some believe there's no such thing as bad publicity; just make sure the names are spelled correctly), it's too late to start deleting and locking threads (and STLtoday was cowardly for deleting the thread that was on there), because the national forum has made a permanent record of it. Actually, it would be better to leave the thread up so that guests can see that most members of the community are reasonable and rational. More importantly, though, are we supposed to have the prescience to determine what will harm the program and what won't? What if we deleted TDELL's post and he started talking to III, saying "St. Louisans don't respect or appreciate you and they are backing Coach Majerus over you, so let's look at transferring you to a school which will showcase you better and win while doing it. Wouldn't Billy Gillespie at Kentucky like to get a transfer with your ability? You'd be in the tournament and everything." And if Liddell III were swayed, having the perception that billikens.com mistreated his family, and heeded, wouldn't that be worse? Who would be harming the program then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Once the national media is citing this site (and I think it's debatable whether this publicity is bad for the program -- some believe there's no such thing as bad publicity; just make sure the names are spelled correctly), it's too late to start deleting and locking threads (and STLtoday was cowardly for deleting the thread that was on there), because the national forum has made a permanent record of it. Actually, it would be better to leave the thread up so that guests can see that most members of the community are reasonable and rational. More importantly, though, are we supposed to have the prescience to determine what will harm the program and what won't? What if we deleted TDELL's post and he started talking to III, saying "St. Louisans don't respect or appreciate you and they are backing Coach Majerus over you, so let's look at transferring you to a school which will showcase you better and win while doing it. Wouldn't Billy Gillespie at Kentucky like to get a transfer with your ability? You'd be in the tournament and everything." And if Liddell III were swayed, having the perception that billikens.com mistreated his family, and heeded, wouldn't that be worse? Who would be harming the program then? It's simple why the thread was deleted from the STLtoday sight. Bernie screwed up. He printed as fact that Tommie's dad made the statement. He could have printed a poster tdell beleived to be Tommie Liddell Jr. posted ..... I'm certainly no Lawyer, but I'm sure you can't go around quoting someone in print unless you can back it up. Bernie can't back it up. He could have easlily worded his statement to be factually correct as I mentioned above or he could have made a call and verified it was Tommie Jr. He did neither and was careless. The thread is gone because the Post wants it that way. It seems to me if Tommie Jr chose to make an issue of this he could. I don't get why we are all so quick to assume Tommie Jr did write it even after he claimed he didn't. We have no reason to assume he's lying. What he wrote happenned is certainly possible, so I'm not sure why we don't accept his word. He also wrote Tommie loves RM .... that's a good thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majerus Magic Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 It's simple why the thread was deleted from the STLtoday sight. Bernie screwed up. He printed as fact that Tommie's dad made the statement. He could have printed a poster tdell beleived to be Tommie Liddell Jr. posted ..... I'm certainly no Lawyer, but I'm sure you can't go around quoting someone in print unless you can back it up. Bernie can't back it up. He could have easlily worded his statement to be factually correct as I mentioned above or he could have made a call and verified it was Tommie Jr. He did neither and was careless. The thread is gone because the Post wants it that way. It seems to me if Tommie Jr chose to make an issue of this he could. I don't get why we are all so quick to assume Tommie Jr did write it even after he claimed he didn't. We have no reason to assume he's lying. What he wrote happenned is certainly possible, so I'm not sure why we don't accept his word. He also wrote Tommie loves RM .... that's a good thing Skip, this isn't directed at you but JUST LET IT GO EVERYBODY. This subject that been run into the ground and people are just talking in circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbofive Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 He also wrote Tommie loves RM .... that's a good thing Tommie and Ricky sitting in a tree... K-I-S-S-I-N-G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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