SLU Football?

[Bay Area Billiken]

After watching the excitement in The Bronx on Saturday, as Fordham beat Holy Cross 24-21 to win the Patriot League championship, I am convinced even more that SLU should have a football program. To me it is such a no brainer. SLU, its alumni, and its students are really missing out. I don't see why SLU can't have a Division 1-AA football program like Fordham, at least to start, and possibly go from there. If a Boston College can win and be nationally ranked in D-1, then why can't SLU?

In the past, we have heard that football is too expensive. But SLU now has a $960M endowment. Look at what big time college football has done for Boston College. That school has gone from being a regional commuter school to the #3 ranked Catholic school nationally. The Flutie Factor literally transformed that school.

Even if SLU didn't want to be a fully funded D-1 program, there is no reason that SLU cannot have a partially funded D-1AA program like Fordham and Holy Cross, which are fellow Jesuit schools. Georgetown now has a football team in the Patriot Leage too, albeit one having a tough year.

There is also the Title IX issue. But the point there is that other schools are somehow dealing with Title IX and still fielding a football team.

Santa Clara's dropping of football out here a few years ago is still a very sore point among SCU alums. People like Dan Pastorini, Doug Cosbie, and Brent Jones once played college football for Santa Clara. Howie Long played for Villanova. There is some very good football played at that Division 1-AA level. I saw it in person on Saturday afternoon.

[alameda bob]

Do you want to meet me in Beserklely on 12/1 to see Cal cream Mizzou?

[Box and Won]

I agree completely!!

I don't think that Division I-A (Bowl Championship Division) would ever be a real possibility, but either a non-scholarship or scholarship I-AA program certainly would.

[Pistol]

I would like to see football too, but that's a tough step to take for an athletic program. It's a lot of scholarships, not to mention other men's scholarships that need to be eliminated, and probably some women's that need to be added. Say goodbye to baseball, and a couple other's like men's cross country, track, or swimming. I still think it would be worth it.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Yes. Let's try to get together for that one. I've had that game targeted for some time. That game might be a direct conflict with DeLaSalle playoff football, but I hope not.

I don't know what to expect from Mizzou. Maybe others on this board can give us a scouting report.

I don't think Cal will be that great. But that game is at Haas Pavilion in Berkeley, which is a veritable den of iniquity for opponents, especially those from other time zones, as we SLU supporters learned first hand during the Lorenzo Romar Era.

[billiken_roy]

After watching the excitement in The Bronx on Saturday, as Fordham beat Holy Cross 24-21 to win the Patriot League championship, I am convinced even more that SLU should have a football program. To me it is such a no brainer. SLU, its alumni, and its students are really missing out. I don't see why SLU can't have a Division 1-AA football program like Fordham, at least to start, and possibly go from there. If a Boston College can win and be nationally ranked in D-1, then why can't SLU?

In the past, we have heard that football is too expensive. But SLU now has a $960M endowment. Look at what big time college football has done for Boston College. That school has gone from being a regional commuter school to the #3 ranked Catholic school nationally. The Flutie Factor literally transformed that school.

Even if SLU didn't want to be a fully funded D-1 program, there is no reason that SLU cannot have a partially funded D-1AA program like Fordham and Holy Cross, which are fellow Jesuit schools. Georgetown now has a football team in the Patriot Leage too, albeit one having a tough year.

There is also the Title IX issue. But the point there is that other schools are somehow dealing with Title IX and still fielding a football team.

Santa Clara's dropping of football out here a few years ago is still a very sore point among SCU alums. People like Dan Pastorini, Doug Cosbie, and Brent Jones once played college football for Santa Clara. Howie Long played for Villanova. There is some very good football played at that Division 1-AA level. I saw it in person on Saturday afternoon.

while i dont disagree with your thinking you are talking about one of the most small time thinking athletic dept's in america. the b.s. that majerus had to beg and hold over slu's head to get most of what he wanted was ridiculous, and we all know that other than majerus, no other coach would have gotten any of that. the fact we are begging for money to complete the arena which is supposed to be a performing asset for the school when we got a billion dollars in the bank ought to tell us something.

consider how most of our other sports dont even use anywhere close to maximum ncaa scholarships, you are just dreaming imo. at least at this point in time. now if the basketball program was performing annually at a top 20 pace and the ncaa money and big time national tv money was coming in, then we got a chance. until then, no way.

[Box and Won]

I would like to see football too, but that's a tough step to take for an athletic program. It's a lot of scholarships, not to mention other men's scholarships that need to be eliminated, and probably some women's that need to be added. Say goodbye to baseball, and a couple other's like men's cross country, track, or swimming. I still think it would be worth it.

But within Division I-AA, we could form a non-scholarship football program. The Pioneer League, which includes similar schools to SLU such as Dayton, Butler, Drake, San Diego, Valparaiso, etc., is a non-scholarship conference. I think schools like Duquesne operate non-scholarship teams as well.

I found an article about Siena's football program, which was dropped in 2004 - their budget was $200k at the time.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I've been reading how other schools do this.

I read somewhere, on this Board as I recall, that the Patriot League schools buy out the football players' student loans. That is certainly an interesting concept to consider.

Ivy League schools supposedly don't give athletic scholarships per se. How then do they do it? I've read they use grants based upon need. Nonetheless there is some very good college football played in the Ivy League. Yale has a good team this year. We never really know how good these Ivy League teams are because the Ivy League does not allow them to participate in the D-1AA football playoffs. But they certainly held their own against the Patriot League teams that they played in the nonconference part of the schedule. The Patriot won some, such as Fordham's rout of Columbia, but the Ivy won its share too.

Fordham fields D-1 men's varsity programs in football, basketball, soccer, baseball, cross-country, golf, squash, swimming, tennis, track, and water polo.

Granted Fordham hoops plays in the ancient Rose Hill Gym on campus, which allegedly hold 3,200, with 9 rows on 1 side, 12 rows on the other side, and 17 rows behind each basket. There is no $85M arena going up in The Bronx!

[Box and Won]

I'd also like to see SLU add men's and womens' lacrosse, but that's another story.

I'm not sure what the Ivy League schools do about scholarships, but I've heard the same thing about the Patriot League. I'm curious as to how Fordham, Georgetown, Villanova, etc. handle scholarships as well.

I think the first step is to start a club team - which FutureBilliken tells us is in the works - play schools like Xavier and Marquette, and try to work our way up to a non-scholarship program.

[brianstl]

I'd also like to see SLU add men's and womens' lacrosse, but that's another story.

I'm not sure what the Ivy League schools do about scholarships, but I've heard the same thing about the Patriot League. I'm curious as to how Fordham, Georgetown, Villanova, etc. handle scholarships as well.

I think the first step is to start a club team - which FutureBilliken tells us is in the works - play schools like Xavier and Marquette, and try to work our way up to a non-scholarship program.

I believe that all Patriot League and I know all Ivy League sports are non-scholarship, not just football. That would make a comparison to SLU's situation difficult.

[StLouBlue]

You are talking about the same athletic dept that closed down the golf program because it was not self sustaining and there wasn't money in the budget to continue. Unless a very big time supporter steps forward and hands over a ton of money to get it done I just don't see any way it happens.

Now should it happen is another question. I don't see any reason to invest a lot of money & effort into a sport that might average around 3000 in a good year. UConn's football team has finally gotten up to a level of respectability after how many years, at least 10 probably more like 15-20 considering getting the stadium built. UConn is an athletic dept that was probably making enough money on MBB & WBB that along with state assistance could get it done, SLU is in nowhere near as good a situation. I think SLU is better off improving the programs that it does have before putting money & effort into the sinkhole of college football.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Maybe I am dreaming, because whenever the subject of football has been raised for SLU, it is like some Dr. No appears to shoot down every idea, while we watch similar institutions to SLU making inroads into football, some of them with tremendous success.

I cite Fordham as the prime example because I was just there Saturday. Fordham went from D-3 football to 2 Patriot League D-1AA championships in 2002 and this year. There were 8.300 people sitting on one side of Jack Coffey Field in The Bronx on Saturday, most of whom were rooting on the Rams. It brought the whole school together, Jesuits, parents, alumni, students, all for one, all for the Rams.

I just couldn't help but wonder why this couldn't happen at the beloved alma mater, good old St. Louis U.

For once, why can't SLU be the pacesetter? Let's get a SLU Football team before say a Marquette resurrects its team. (Now I have no information that Marquette is actually doing that.)

SLU has almost twice the endowment of Fordham. Even in disappointing years in recent SLU basketball history, SLU basketball would double the best attendance Fordham could ever have as long as Fordham plays its games on campus at Rose Hill Gym. I would fully expect SLU hoops this year to triple Fordham basketball attendance, if not quadruple it.

And most neutral observers, coast to coast, think that Rick Majerus will have tremendous success with the SLU Basketball program, as in conference championships and perennial NCAA Tournament appearances. That will mean increased revenue into the SLU coffers.

[Box and Won]

Now should it happen is another question. I don't see any reason to invest a lot of money & effort into a sport that might average around 3000 in a good year. UConn's football team has finally gotten up to a level of respectability after how many years, at least 10 probably more like 15-20 considering getting the stadium built. UConn is an athletic dept that was probably making enough money on MBB & WBB that along with state assistance could get it done, SLU is in nowhere near as good a situation. I think SLU is better off improving the programs that it does have before putting money & effort into the sinkhole of college football.

UConn made the jump from I-AA to I-A a few years ago - I'm not really sure it's an apt comparison. There's no need for SLU to aspire to play at that level.

Non-scholly I-AA football, now that's an attainable goal.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Fordham and Georgetown are football only members of the Patriot League. Obviously, Georgetown gives full athletic scholarships for its nationally ranked Big East basketball team, and I'm pretty sure that Fordham gives full athletic scholarships to its A-10 basketball team.

Holy Cross is a Patriot League member in all sports and now once again gives athletic scholarships. I think at one point the Patriot League did not allow athletic scholarships, but that has changed.

The big question is football, and how these Patriot League schools are funding those teams.

I can tell you that there were some very good football players playing on Saturday. The players looked smaller than D-1 football players, but they were still good players. Fordham has 2 very good running backs, small in stature, but good players. Both teams had QB's with NFL type size. Fordham's former QB is a backup in the NFL.

The visiting Holy Cross team did not bring that many players to the game. I would estimate Holy Cross fielded only 30 players or so. The home Fordham team dressed a lot more players, but I was told that Fordham does not take all those players to the road games.

[billiken_roy]

Maybe I am dreaming, because whenever the subject of football has been raised for SLU, it is like some Dr. No appears to shoot down every idea, while we watch similar institutions to SLU making inroads into football, some of them with tremendous success.

I cite Fordham as the prime example because I was just there Saturday. Fordham went from D-3 football to 2 Patriot League D-1AA championships in 2002 and this year. There were 8.300 people sitting on one side of Jack Coffey Field in The Bronx on Saturday, most of whom were rooting on the Rams. It brought the whole school together, Jesuits, parents, alumni, students, all for one, all for the Rams.

I just couldn't help but wonder why this couldn't happen at the beloved alma mater, good old St. Louis U.

For once, why can't SLU be the pacesetter? Let's get a SLU Football team before say a Marquette resurrects its team. (Now I have no information that Marquette is actually doing that.)

SLU has almost twice the endowment of Fordham. Even in disappointing years in recent SLU basketball history, SLU basketball would double the best attendance Fordham could ever have as long as Fordham plays its games on campus at Rose Hill Gym. I would fully expect SLU hoops this year to triple Fordham basketball attendance, if not quadruple it.

And most neutral observers, coast to coast, think that Rick Majerus will have tremendous success with the SLU Basketball program, as in conference championships and perennial NCAA Tournament appearances. That will mean increased revenue into the SLU coffers.

i'm still in shock majerus is here. who'd have thought that would ever happen! it just isnt going to happen.

[brianstl]

Holy Cross is a Patriot League member in all sports and now once again gives athletic scholarships. I think at one point the Patriot League did not allow athletic scholarships, but that has changed.

Are you sure about this? I remember an article last year where Bill Simmons was complaining that the lack of athletic scholarships was putting Ralph Willard's Holy Cross program at a distinct disadvantage.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I was told this summer by a Jesuit priest from another Jesuit school that the A-10 will not be big enough for SLU with Rick Majerus at the helm. He cited the A-10's lack of television revenue and SLU's commitment to its basketball program, as evidenced by the Majerus hire, his salary, and the new arena.

I don't know where SLU could go. The Jesuit priest thought SLU would eventually be looking at the Big East. But the Big East already has 16 teams. He also thought the Vatican/Papal Conference will never happen.

I guess the point here is that what is happening at SLU has not gone unnoticed. SLU is going to be on the map. SLU is going to be a player.

So when we get on that roll, why not continue the roll further, by adding Billiken Football?

I can continue to dream, can't I?

Remember, like Billiken Roy and Taj, I am an Ekker survivor. What has already happened is just amazing. It is only going to get better.

[billiken_roy]

Are you sure about this? I remember an article last year where Bill Simmons was complaining that the lack of athletic scholarships was putting Ralph Willard's Holy Cross program at a distinct disadvantage.

read john feinstein's "The Last Amateurs: Playing for Glory and Honor in Division I College Basketball"

the whole premise of the book is that no patriot league athlete gets athletic scholarship money and how the priorities change.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Yes.

See www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_League

I'm pretty sure that Holy Cross now gives athletic scholarships in basketball. At one time, HC didn't, but I'm pretty sure that has changed.

The mystery is these football teams and how they are funded.

It was a big deal at Fordham when Fordham beat fully funded Rhode Island in this season's football opener, and on the road no less.

[Box and Won]

Are you sure about this? I remember an article last year where Bill Simmons was complaining that the lack of athletic scholarships was putting Ralph Willard's Holy Cross program at a distinct disadvantage.

That used to be the case, but not any more. I think it may still be non-scholarship for football though.

[willie]

read john feinstein's "The Last Amateurs: Playing for Glory and Honor in Division I College Basketball"

the whole premise of the book is that no patriot league athlete gets athletic scholarship money and how the priorities change.

I did read the book and a couple of Patriot league teams were starting to give scholarships. That was one of the points Feinstein was making ,how hard it was for a team with no scholarships to compete with teams that were starting to gove them. Holly Cross was a giver. Good Read.

[Lurking Dog]

I believe Feinstein's book was written before the Patriot League allowed basketball scholarships.

In football, Patriot League athletic departments buy out student loans. This is done for players only, and those who quit the team lose that part of their aid package.

Most Patriot League football programs are funded at 50-55 equivalencies (NCAA limit for their level is 63). That's different than the Pioneer Football league, which doesn't allow any aid not available to students in general. Patriot champ Fordham, by the way, lost to Dayton of the PFL earlier this year. Fordham's football budget is 3-4 times Dayton's because of the athletic aid.

See question 2:

http://www.geocities.com/lurkingd/faq.html

[Lurking Dog]

Box and Won,

Duquesne is joining Northeast Conference football next year. They will add up to 30 scholarship equivalencies, which the NEC allows.

Don't forget to add SIU-Edwardsville, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, and Marquette to your list of existing club teams!

In case anyone wants to see a D-I nonscholarship startup in progress, see Campbell's football website at:

http://www.gocamels.com/SportSelect.dbml?D...amp;SPSID=65455

The Camels will be in the PFL next year.

TV News report on their Homecoming scrimmage:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/1951465/

[Bay Area Billiken]

Thanks. Now, who pays for buying out the student loans? Is that done by the university, private donors, some combination of the two, etc.? Can private donors directly buy out the student loans, or do they make contributions to the university that are used to buy out the loans? Either way, it is an interesting concept.

Fordham had a lot of players dressed out on Saturday, a lot more than visiting Holy Cross.

Re Fordham, in addition to losing at home to Dayton, Fordham also lost at home to Albany from the Northeast Conference.

But Fordham beat a fully funded FCS school in Rhode Island on the road. Go figure.

If Fordham beats Bucknell this Saturday, Fordham will finish the regular season undefeated in Patriot League play and 9-2 overall.

Fordham and Holy Cross seem to be ahead of Georgetown in football.

[Box and Won]

Box and Won,

Duquesne is joining Northeast Conference football next year. They will add up to 30 scholarship equivalencies, which the NEC allows.

Don't forget to add SIU-Edwardsville, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, and Marquette to your list of existing club teams!

In case anyone wants to see a D-I nonscholarship startup in progress, see Campbell's football website at:

http://www.gocamels.com/SportSelect.dbml?D...amp;SPSID=65455

The Camels will be in the PFL next year.

Good stuff - thanks! The Campbell site is interesting. I had never heard of Campbell, but it's a Baptist school that apparently was a JUCO up until 1961...and now they have football.