OT: Bobby Hill transfers from ISU

[Hang Time]

Thanks for the enlightnement guys. I realize the purpose of the board. My point is that I don't like to see these young men attacked personally. You explained your reasoning. I disagree with some of the logic, but I respect the dialogue. moytoy12, I love your sarcasm. If I had more time, I'd get with you. Until the next time I can start some crap . . . may the peace of the Biliken rest upon you.

Hang Time

Official sponsor of

He-Man Moron Haters, Inc.

[brianstl]

Actually, Brian just likes to see people fail. He's pure negativity (and some would even say pure evil).

Billikan did refer to me once as a "Seer of Evil".

[Taj79]

Fact: Bobby Hill transfered.

Fact: It had something to do with grades.

All the rest is pure speculation but don't hink for a moment that a writer doesn't bring his or her own biases into a story. Vee has been pushing St. Louis basketball ever since he got on here, despite its obvious shortcomings annually on the national stage. Nothing wrong with that and this is not to attack Vee. But it is a reality. For those who believe everything they read in a newspaper, please develop better investigative skills.

As for Floyd's success or lack thereof, getting 9 of ten players off one roster is a nice battle to win. The war is what happened once they got in. Did they stay? Did they finish? Did they make something out of their life. Did they come back and give back to the school or society? I don't recall anyone from Vashon making a huge professional mark. Sure, Bonner made it, but a huge mark? Don't think I'd classify it as such.

What was it, one year ago that Vee was postulating on how SLU needed the Bobby Hills of the St. Louis basketball community. He didn't do it at ISU --- if he did, he wouldn't need to transfer. I don't know his major and I don't know how much more or less difficult ISU is from SLU,if at all. But I would say that based on this, Vee's argument for us taking Bobby is even more suspect. That's now, a year removed. The real story will be in another year removed. If he returns to ISU great. If not, could be great provided he makes something at Lincoln and beyond.

This is akin to the other discussion about Billikens in the NBA in a couple of years. You can posture and predict all you want. I think its interesting to revisit the prediction a couple years down the road. This one, like most other Vashon success stories, isn't really that good in retrospect.

I think overall, it impacts on just how reliable information is on the STL Hoops Insider page. Of course, that is no different then Clark Francis or Hoop Scoop or any of the others. They've just been around longer.

[STL Hoops Insider]

Fact: Bobby Hill transfered.

Fact: It had something to do with grades.

All the rest is pure speculation but don't hink for a moment that a writer doesn't bring his or her own biases into a story. Vee has been pushing St. Louis basketball ever since he got on here, despite its obvious shortcomings annually on the national stage. Nothing wrong with that and this is not to attack Vee. But it is a reality. For those who believe everything they read in a newspaper, please develop better investigative skills.

As for Floyd's success or lack thereof, getting 9 of ten players off one roster is a nice battle to win. The war is what happened once they got in. Did they stay? Did they finish? Did they make something out of their life. Did they come back and give back to the school or society? I don't recall anyone from Vashon making a huge professional mark. Sure, Bonner made it, but a huge mark? Don't think I'd classify it as such.

What was it, one year ago that Vee was postulating on how SLU needed the Bobby Hills of the St. Louis basketball community. He didn't do it at ISU --- if he did, he wouldn't need to transfer. I don't know his major and I don't know how much more or less difficult ISU is from SLU,if at all. But I would say that based on this, Vee's argument for us taking Bobby is even more suspect. That's now, a year removed. The real story will be in another year removed. If he returns to ISU great. If not, could be great provided he makes something at Lincoln and beyond.

This is akin to the other discussion about Billikens in the NBA in a couple of years. You can posture and predict all you want. I think its interesting to revisit the prediction a couple years down the road. This one, like most other Vashon success stories, isn't really that good in retrospect.

I think overall, it impacts on just how reliable information is on the STL Hoops Insider page. Of course, that is no different then Clark Francis or Hoop Scoop or any of the others. They've just been around longer.

At least 2 of the guys off of that team are back in the area coaching high school basketball.

[Quality Is Job 1]

At least 2 of the guys off of that team are back in the area coaching high school basketball.

Gerald Jones coaches Berkeley. Anthony Bonner coaches Vashon. Who else have you got?

By the way, I spoke to Abel Tillman (Berkeley) last week. He says he's going to prep school. Says he has a top 10, all of whom have offered, but his grades are an obstacle. Among the schools I recall hearing him list are Missouri, SLU, Green Bay. He's about 6-6 or 6-7, and he says he's about 200 pounds. I told him he needs to get up to 225. He didn't agree. (It's probably because he's had difficulty putting on weight.)

[STL Hoops Insider]

Abel Tillman footage can be found on my website. Its on the same video with Cornbreak Walker of Vashon HS.

[BJK]

I am not taking shots at the kid. I am not taking delight in this kid's struggles. I don't go after kids just because they played for Floyd. Anthony Bonner is my favorite Billiken of all time and I am Polk's biggest backer on this board.

The thing is that it has been norm for to many kids that played under Floyd. Floyd was in the position where he could have made a difference for these kids. He decided winning basketball games was the only thing that mattered.

Where would they be if they didn't win any basketball games? How many would have a chance to go to college. I think it's a bit of a double edged sword when it comes to high school ball.

[Hang Time]

Here's the answer to your question. This is what the whole student body did. We don't even need to look at the % of these graduates that went to college. It appears that the problem at these schools were greater than Floyd.

Graduation rates City of St. Louis:

— Beaumont High — 37.8 percent

— Sumner High — 48.7 percent

— Roosevelt High — 48.2 percent

— Vashon High — 49.4 percent

— Meda P. Washington — 30.2 percent

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...C2?OpenDocument

[billiken_roy]

Here's the answer to your question. This is what the whole student body did. We don't even need to look at the % of these graduates that went to college. It appears that the problem at these schools were greater than Floyd.

Graduation rates City of St. Louis:

— Beaumont High — 37.8 percent

— Sumner High — 48.7 percent

— Roosevelt High — 48.2 percent

— Vashon High — 49.4 percent

— Meda P. Washington — 30.2 percent

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...C2?OpenDocument

arent these all st louis public schools? and please tell me you arent making a point about a sub 50% high school graduation record. why would any parent allow their son or daughter to be a part of that. i would do just about anything to get my kid out of such an environment. yet floyd was stealing kids from school districts outside of the ones you mention.

[Hang Time]

How can a coach steal a kid? The parent took the kid to the school. The academic failure of these schools was no secret. And regardless of how or why the kid got to the school, the point is that the graduation and college enrollment rate of the team appears to exceed that of the school as a whole. I presume that the college has an admission screening process. How do you skip over the responsibility of the parent(s) and schools and put the college success rate of a student athlete on the shoulders of a high school coach? Irons may be responsible for violating State rules for getting these kids, however, once a kid gets his diploma and is accepted to college, their success or failure is out of the hs coach's hands. Seems to me that based on school data, 2 out of 3 of these kids would have dropout if Floyd never had anything to do with them.

[Hang Time]

arent these all st louis public schools? and please tell me you arent making a point about a sub 50% high school graduation record. why would any parent allow their son or daughter to be a part of that. i would do just about anything to get my kid out of such an environment. yet floyd was stealing kids from school districts outside of the ones you mention.

Yep, seems like some folks did do just about anything to get their kids out and people faulted them for that as well. According to the Post, parents begged neighboring districts to take their kids. County districts locked them out, so some parents opted to send their kids to the KC school. Instead of being applauded, in typical moron fashion, St. Louis hoop fans began their verbal assault. I agree, it would be insulting to one's intelligence to justify a move to a city school as being a step up academically. In fact, the Suburban North schools, in many cases, are not far behind. Despite all of this, one thing is apparent, good parenting can overcome a host of obstacles, that's why a young men like Dwayne and Jimmy continue to experience success at life despite coming out of the SLPS.

Hang Time

Official sponsor of

He-Man Moron Haters, Inc.

[thetorch]

I agree, it would be insulting to one's intelligence to justify a move to a city school as being a step up academically. In fact, the Suburban North schools, in many cases, are not far behind.

Your talking out of your a** now. Suburban North schools considering the economic background of the people that reside in their districts are among the best in the nation and have been recognized as such. Just because we have superior athletic programs across the board in comparison to other conferences does not mean academics are suffering. The opposite is true. All the schools in the SN have exemplary academic records save for the Riverview district which has had problems now for over a generation.

[Hang Time]

One of us is a lie. The good thing is that there is a wealth of public information from folks much closer to the issue than us. We are discussing data that's readily available to the public. First off, I challenge you to present recent evidence of all of these academic honors for suburban north schools. Here's a little something to get you started.

hazelwood — Citing fear of gang violence, Hazelwood school officials have canceled a homecoming bonfire and pep rally that was to be held tonight at ...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...0B?OpenDocument

Officials differ on area's level of gang activity

http://northcountyjournal.stltoday.com/art..._wolf_1.ii1.txt

(Be sure to read the teacher's commentary at the bottom of the page)

Check out the Hazelwood East falling graduation rate, rising dropout rate, over 3/4 of the juniors were below proficient in communication arts and 90% of sophomores were below proficiency in mathematics.

http://dese.mo.gov/planning/profile/buildi...0960881060.html

Come on lets talk about it. I may talk out of my a** but your obviously the one full of sh*!.

Would you like me to pull up data on Normandy, Central, McCluer and McCluer North as well?

Hang Time

Official sponsor of

He-Man Moron Haters, Inc.

[thetorch]

One of us is a lie. The good thing is that there is a wealth of public information from folks much closer to the issue than us. We are discussing data that's readily available to the public. First off, I challenge you to present recent evidence of all of these academic honors for suburban north schools. Here's a little something to get you started.

hazelwood — Citing fear of gang violence, Hazelwood school officials have canceled a homecoming bonfire and pep rally that was to be held tonight at ...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...0B?OpenDocument

Officials differ on area's level of gang activity

http://northcountyjournal.stltoday.com/art..._wolf_1.ii1.txt

(Be sure to read the teacher's commentary at the bottom of the page)

Check out the Hazelwood East falling graduation rate, rising dropout rate, over 3/4 of the juniors were below proficient in communication arts and 90% of sophomores were below proficiency in mathematics.

http://dese.mo.gov/planning/profile/buildi...0960881060.html

Come on lets talk about it. I may talk out of my a** but your obviously the one full of sh*!.

Would you like me to pull up data on Normandy, Central, McCluer and McCluer North as well?

Hang Time

Official sponsor of

He-Man Moron Haters, Inc.

Canceling a bonfire has nothing to do with academics.

Unfortunately in the last decade a couple of the districts in the SN have taken on huge amounts of kids from the City and Riverview districts.

Please notice the graduation rate of East. Twice that of any City high school. There is no comparison sorry.

And Normandy hasn't been in the SN in years.

[brianstl]

How can a coach steal a kid? The parent took the kid to the school. The academic failure of these schools was no secret. And regardless of how or why the kid got to the school, the point is that the graduation and college enrollment rate of the team appears to exceed that of the school as a whole. I presume that the college has an admission screening process. How do you skip over the responsibility of the parent(s) and schools and put the college success rate of a student athlete on the shoulders of a high school coach? Irons may be responsible for violating State rules for getting these kids, however, once a kid gets his diploma and is accepted to college, their success or failure is out of the hs coach's hands. Seems to me that based on school data, 2 out of 3 of these kids would have dropout if Floyd never had anything to do with them.

Floyd had a chance to demand more out of his players. He was supposed to be an educator as well as a coach. He turned out to be only worried about Flojo. As soon as things turned bad for him he did every thing he could to hurt the Vashon program and as a result hurt his players too.

Flojo is what he is..... a self admitted criminal who was always out for himself.

[moytoy12]

Irons may be responsible for violating State rules for getting these kids, however, once a kid gets his diploma and is accepted to college, their success or failure is out of the hs coach's hands.

Wrong. Hopefully, the high school coach adequately prepared that kid to meet life's challenges at the college level. A high school coach's influence should be felt for years after that kid leaves high school. Based on what i read (and that's as close as i am to the situation so i might very well be wrong), Floyd didn't do this. Floyd probably did keep kids from dropping out and promoted certain of these kids to the next level. However, that's hardly an accomplishment if these kids wash out at the next level and return to the streets. At that point, Floyd simply used the kids seemingly without any recognition for their future well-being.

[Hang Time]

Wrong. Hopefully, the high school coach adequately prepared that kid to meet life's challenges at the college level. A high school coach's influence should be felt for years after that kid leaves high school. Based on what i read (and that's as close as i am to the situation so i might very well be wrong), Floyd didn't do this. Floyd probably did keep kids from dropping out and promoted certain of these kids to the next level. However, that's hardly an accomplishment if these kids wash out at the next level and return to the streets. At that point, Floyd simply used the kids seemingly without any recognition for their future well-being.

I think that you give to much power to a coach. A coach is only part of the formula for a student-athlete's development. Outside of skill development and sportsmanship, the larger part of a child's mental well-being is established at home and in the classroom. If parents turned their kids over to a coach then their foolish. Additionally, the research showed that the kids, not only from Vashon, but from all of the city schools never appeared in college. They went from a partial high school tenure to the streets. We celebrate the accomplishments of people like, Coach Carter and Joe Clark because they are the exception and not the rule. Coaches cannot solve the social and environmental problems that have afflicted our children. It's wonderful that some coaches can make these enormous sacrifices, but the fact that we celebrate these individuals demonstrates the rareness of their actions. Most of us would not be able to committ the resources needed to transform the lives of these kids that come to school with so many issues.

[slufanskip]

I think that you give to much power to a coach. A coach is only part of the formula for a student-athlete's development. Outside of skill development and sportsmanship, the larger part of a child's mental well-being is established at home and in the classroom. If parents turned their kids over to a coach then their foolish. Additionally, the research showed that the kids, not only from Vashon, but from all of the city schools never appeared in college. They went from a partial high school tenure to the streets. We celebrate the accomplishments of people like, Coach Carter and Joe Clark because they are the exception and not the rule. Coaches cannot solve the social and environmental problems that have afflicted our children. It's wonderful that some coaches can make these enormous sacrifices, but the fact that we celebrate these individuals demonstrates the rareness of their actions. Most of us would not be able to committ the resources needed to transform the lives of these kids that come to school with so many issues.

I'm not picking on Floyd Irons as he isn't the only problem and you are right it isn't just the coaches, but it doesn't take resources to establish discipline and rules for your team. If you don't come to class every day and aren't passing all your classes you don't play ball period. Letting them play just reinforces the no rules attitude and life they live at home. It also doesn't do them any good as without the real education just passing them through HS so they can play still leaves them without much chance in life. The problem is ... winning is more important than the kids. I'm on the board of the league I coach in and you'd be surprised at the 7th and 8th grade level in girls basketball how many coaches will put winning in front of all else.

[moytoy12]

I'm not picking on Floyd Irons as he isn't the only problem and you are right it isn't just the coaches, but it doesn't take resources to establish discipline and rules for your team. If you don't come to class every day and aren't passing all your classes you don't play ball period. Letting them play just reinforces the no rules attitude and life they live at home. It also doesn't do them any good as without the real education just passing them through HS so they can play still leaves them without much chance in life. The problem is ... winning is more important than the kids. I'm on the board of the league I coach in and you'd be surprised at the 7th and 8th grade level in girls basketball how many coaches will put winning in front of all else.

I agree with both skip and HT on this. I don't expect every coach to be coach carter, but do expect every coach to instill (or at least try to instill) basic life skills into each player. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Hang Time]

Can't argue with that. I can only debate the facts that I am aware of. I have always seen his kids act maturely on the court. I had no evidence of the other details you mentioned. Where did it read that he allowed players to skip class? Also, who approved their graduation and grades if they didn't attend classes. If this is the case, then, the teachers, parents and others are also culpable. How the heck do you not know are care about what's going on with your kid? If basketball is important to my kid, then, you'd best believe that I will be there every step of the way to see how they spend their time in the sport and what

s being told to them by adults that interact with them through sports.

Dios Mio

[moytoy12]

Can't argue with that. I can only debate the facts that I am aware of. I have always seen his kids act maturely on the court. I had no evidence of the other details you mentioned. Where did it read that he allowed players to skip class? Also, who approved their graduation and grades if they didn't attend classes. If this is the case, then, the teachers, parents and others are also culpable. How the heck do you not know are care about what's going on with your kid? If basketball is important to my kid, then, you'd best believe that I will be there every step of the way to see how they spend their time in the sport and what

s being told to them by adults that interact with them through sports.

Dios Mio

In as unassuming manner as possible, what type of homes did most of the Floyd-era Vashon kids come from? Were they solid homes or were they broken homes? If they were broken homes, then did Floyd serve in loco parentis?

[billiken_roy]

I think that you give to much power to a coach. A coach is only part of the formula for a student-athlete's development. Outside of skill development and sportsmanship, the larger part of a child's mental well-being is established at home and in the classroom. If parents turned their kids over to a coach then their foolish. Additionally, the research showed that the kids, not only from Vashon, but from all of the city schools never appeared in college. They went from a partial high school tenure to the streets. We celebrate the accomplishments of people like, Coach Carter and Joe Clark because they are the exception and not the rule. Coaches cannot solve the social and environmental problems that have afflicted our children. It's wonderful that some coaches can make these enormous sacrifices, but the fact that we celebrate these individuals demonstrates the rareness of their actions. Most of us would not be able to committ the resources needed to transform the lives of these kids that come to school with so many issues.

you are right the coach carter's and joe clark's are the exception, but there is an extreme exception in the other direction. the coach that makes it easy to slide through the system and get through just to play sports for the immediate sports highlights. that was floyd. and to continue to make excuses for him is actually quite depressing. sure the parents should take some responsibility. but would it have killed floyd to remind all around him what really mattered? would it have killed floyd to let those that were supposed to have been in a different school district with better academics to stay there because in reality that would have done more to help that kid succeed after high school than coming to vashon? too often the answer to the question "who does this benefit?" was floyd and not the student.

my daughter plays softball for a coach that for the last two years has had the number one gpa of any high school varsity sports team in america. he constantly reminds the kids and the parents that whatever they accomplish on the field means nothing if they cant succeed after school. (last year, all six of his senior players went onto college with either a combined athletic and academic scholarship or an academic scholarship.) and he has maintained this high academic expectation and won as well (12 straight season with over 20 wins). imo because the kids and the parents understand the expectation and buy into the picture. that's a coach. not some loser that uses the kids to win his state championships and then allows those kids to become insignificant in society thereafter like floyd did. sure there were a few vashon players that made it. but the truth is that the likes of polk are the exception for floyd. it should at least be the majority. the student athlete should always be the positive role model and leader of their peers imo. if not, they should be students first until they can master that part.

[billiken_roy]

Also, who approved their graduation and grades if they didn't attend classes.

wasnt floyd the principal?

[Hang Time]

wasnt floyd the principal?

This is a bit out of my range of information, but as I understand, he served briefly as prinicpal. However, for the period in question, he was the District AD. I have no stake in the matter except my concern for the students who we agree have been cheated of an appropriate education and college preparation. However, it seems odd that a coach is held (mostly) responsible for a system that is obviously broken. An objective analysis would question the progress of student athletes for all sports in the city. Can any of these coaches truly be trusted? Are have most of them done the impossible.

Oops, news bulletin a Suburban North school was dismissed early because a gun was found in the possession of a student.

I digress . . . Were the graduation rates of these student athletes really greater than the general student body or was trickery afoot. Have you noticed that very few of these kids are ineligible during the season in schools that have the State's highest dropout rates. As some of you stated, you don't really care about all St. Louis kids. Your interest is in St. Louis Univ hoops. In fact, you could care less about Floyd except that he won games. In my opinion, I still here heresay evidence of his wrongdoing related to academics. The real issue here is fair sportsmanship. You want him punished for cheating on the court. Apparently, its in the works. Academically, the facts show that most of his basketball players were given a better chance at a higher education than the rest of the student body.

The part about sending kids back to there proper school is a joke. No coach is going to force a stud player to leave their school. The only exception is if they think they may get caught. If you say otherwise, you're lying. And don't tell me about the one anointed saint that you know. Because in your prior statement, you prove my point by doing so . . . you speak of yourself, the coach and the student-athlete. I would safely assume that if the coach didn't promote proper values to your child that you would move your daughter to a new program or have the coach removed. It is your involvement that serves as a sort of checks and balances to the power of a coach.