slu72 Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 that for some reason the non fb schools talking about this 16 team hybrid Big East conference can't see the sense in an all bb two division league. Is there profit sharing here, i.e. fb schools give bb schools $$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 The Big East bb schools are begging to maintain their connection to the football schools because without the football schools the bb schools lose the BCS influence that is slowly overtaking collegiate athletics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 David, are you implying that the insidious and mysterious BCS will creep into hoops? If so, I believe that is the death knell for college sports and the greatest athletic event in the US, i.e. the dance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 what is going to end up happening is that their will eventually be a break in d-1 to separate the top 4-5 conferences into the top top d-1 division and then the rest. and this will go for all sports. thus there might be 64 schools in d-1 and then the rest will be a d-1a for example. i dont like that, but cant help wondering if the big schools arent thinking that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Even if there is never a D1 and D1a concept in place, the BCS conferences control most of the power and money in the NCAA. If the Big East basketball schools are split from the football schools, then the basketball schools will forever lose their BCS association and the power and influence that goes with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NashvilleBilliken Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I heard on the radio this morning that congress will be meeting to discuss the current state of the BCS and complaints that too many schools are being left out. Anybody else hear something like that? If so, i think its a good move cause the BCS will destroy college athletics if they let it go too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Lots of powerful people in this country, who happen to be sports fans, did not attend a BCS school. They are not going to stand idly by while the BCS attempts to make their alma maters irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 what boggles me is the "let them walk all over me" attitude of the remaining d-1 schools. doesnt it seem likely that there is power in their numbers? i mean let's say the acc, sec, big ten, big 12, pac 10 and notre dame. all decide they are d-1 by themselves. for football that might be fine and dandy. heck they only play 10-12 games a year anyway. but for other sports, it would seem they would want the inclusion of the rest of the schools desparately. and if the other schools agree to let themselve be excluded for football but then be used as home game non-conference fodder in all other sports, they are crazy. if anything, the remaining approx 250 schools should be ganging up on these "too big" schools to get the playing field leveled out in the favor of the remaining schools rather than build the deck for the big dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I don't know if anyone here has ever seen overall collegiate athletics financial figures, but I would be willing to bet that the BCS conferences collectively account for over 80% of the total revenue generated by all collegiate athletics. If my assumptions are correct, then I fear that money will ultimately control the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gister Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Isn't this what the President of Tulane is attempting to do. That is, organize non BCS schools to gain some influence and change the BCS structure. I haven't heard anything lately about how this effort is going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 in the current setup, i can see that. but what if "the rest of us" refused to play by their rules and set up our own association? do you think that it couldnt be self supportive? do you fear it would be a "minor league" type atmosphere? i agree a lot of the luster of being without the dukes and kentucky's would be gone, but in the same sense, the old "college atmosphere" might be even more prevalent than it is now. and imo that is the real uniqueness of college athletics. my point is that they need us as much as we need them. aside from football, i am not sure it really makes a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gister Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegefootball/story/6613673 This guy paints a pretty gloomy picture. Or how about this from Pittsburgh which looks at the potential split? http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pitt/20...9xbigeastp7.asp And from Syracuse, this view: http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/pos...91837282593.xml The bottom line is anybody's guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 On the national level non-BCS schools are already irrelevent because they cannot compete. It is foolish to think otherwise. What is someone in power going to do to even the playing field? Force the good leagues to let lesser teams compete? In football there is a non-BCS team who is pretty good every 2 or 3 years. Look at the Top 10 at the end of the season, all BCS. Look at the NCAA tournament. Last six years there has been one (1) Final Four team that was not BCS...Marquette. 23 BCS 1 Non-BCS You can point that Connecticut did not have a D1 football team when they made the final 4, but they do now and they are in a BCS conference. The fact is that these teams/schools are playing at a different level that the rest of the academic institutions that field teams. I agree with Roy that a split is going to happen. I think that we will have 6, 12 teams leagues based on competitive football. We will not be part of that system, and honestly I do not want to be part of it. These are semi-pro leagues. I think that we can still have a very good, viable basketball program without football, in fact we are in a better position without football. Schools like Tulane and Memphis are in a weakened position because of the expectations and financial drag of the football programs that will not be able to compete with the big teams. It is easy for Memphis to sell a lot of tickets if Oklahoma comes to play them (oh wait that doesn't happen) it is not easy if they need to fill games with SW MO State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 In theory, schools like Marquette, SLU, Gonzaga, Tulane, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Ivy Leagues, etc. should have enough fans and interest to provide quality collegiate athletics. My fear, however, is that it quickly becomes something more attune to Division 3 athletics. The students and alumni at Wash U., University of Chicago, etc. follow their teams, but there is little interest outside of that group. Because athletic scholarships would still be provided, the quality of competition may be much better than the D3 schools, but it may result in D2-quality athletics played by bigger name schools. The whole thing scares me as a fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 "Look at the NCAA tournament. Last six years there has been one (1) Final Four team that was not BCS...Marquette." I think you missed Utah. So in addition to Marquette, Utah, Temple, Tulsa, Gonzaga and Kent St. have all made the Elite 8 in the last six years. I wouldn't exactly call that irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 i have to be honest and tell you that of all the teams i have closely followed, i got as much enjoyment watching my brother's team at mckendree in the mid-80's play as i ever got watching any other level of college basketball. imo, basketball is only better the more you make it a team sport rather than a collection of all-stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 It's impossible for the competition to fall to D2 levels. The same highly touted kids that are going to the BCS schools will still go there. But the next Marque Perry, Kent Williams or Jobey Thomas will still need a place to play ball. And those kids are high major D-1 players whether the BCS recognizes them or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 OK 7 teams filling 48 slots. That is insignificant. 41 of 48 Final 8 teams are BCS in last six years. During the same time, the ACC had 6 teams in the Final 4. To the non-BCS 2. Go back 10 seasons, 3 non-BCS in the Final 4 (Marquette, Utah, UMass). Out of 200-220 non-BCS schools over 10 years, conservatively say 2000 chances (200 schools X 10 years), three teams made the Final 4. Let me say it again...3 out of 2000. All this mean, imo, is that for the two national collegiate sports (let's define it by saying they have national TV contracts of significance), football and basketball, it is the BCS teams that dominate and non-BCS teams are irrelevent to the competition. Does it make me mad, yes. But this is not new, it has been happening for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Add to that the influx of international players and the overall talent level will continue to increase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3star_recruit Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 "During the same time, the ACC had 6 teams in the Final 4. To the non-BCS 2." That's misleading. North Carolina, Duke and Maryland accounted for the 6 berths. The other ACC teams didn't do jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidnark Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 The problem is that the BCS teams recognize that they represent 100% of the significance in football and over 80% of the significance in basketball. They can cut the cord from the rest of us, still have popular semi-pro sports, and keep more money for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 There is nothing misleading about the statement, but if you want a better example try the Big 10 with 4 teams going six times in the last six years. The numbers speak clearly, BCS teams either have: an enormous advantage or they are just significantly better in competition for these two sports (or both). This has been the case for years. So don't think there are powerbrokers who went to Siena or Valpo or some other non-BCS school who are now going exhert influence to change the system. I think a schools like SLU are susceptable to institutional damage by trying to compete with prorgams that are really minor leagues for the NFL and NBA. Let's be clear, I want to compete, I want SLU to excel and I'd love a Final 4, but I do not want it the way Q is trying to buy one in Columbia and I certain will not stand for the potential damage to my alma mater that has resulted in the name of competitiveness as has occured at Baylor (what the heck are they doing in the Big 12 anyway?)and St. Bonaventure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Who gets hurt if they cut the cord? I don't think SLU will get hurt because our share of C-USA bowl revenue can't be that irreplacable. As the talent level continues to increase in quantity and quality in B-Ball, the opportunities for smaller schools to succeed will increase. The schools with minor football will get hurt. I am sorry for their situation, but I don't think we should be affiliated with them anyway (oh wait that means most of the southern schools in C-USA, bummer I'd miss our annual tilt with _______ Houston, S. Miss, S. Fla) I don't think cutting the cord is all that bad, and in fact I think it is largely inevitable. The recent discussion about minor recruiting infractions shows that the big schools care little about the NCAA rules (or they see the minor ones as petty) My thought has always been that they would want out of the NCAA so they do not have to put up with "minor rules" hassles. I see this cord cutting as really a permanent employment plan for the likes of Eddie Sutton. He'd coach until he wass 100 if we got rid of the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I am a little confused - this BCS stuff is only about football. It came about to deal with the issue of a playoff/national champion concerns. BB has a playoff that includes everyone - why would you need the BCS to take over BB. It makes no sense and the NCAA would object. What am I missing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basketbill Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 The point is if because of football and BCS consideration six super conferences are formed, that is 72 schools all who also play basketball. Forget football for the moment. Big conference schools dominate the NCAA now with rules such as the 5/8 rule being repealed because it hurts teams that recruit the top 20 players, who bolt for the pros. So what is to stop them from saying we want six or seven of our teams in the tourney from each leauge. Sure the NCAA objects, but the superconferences who were built for BCS consideration might join together with Fox Sports and start their own Tournament. ......that is why it matters, that is why we care about BCS happenings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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