Tonka Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 True, and Ross production isn't that difficult to match by anyone. I would put my butt on the line and say that once given the opporunity, JJ will outperform Ross with ease. JJ's performace is identical to Ross' without seeing much time, having much experience, etc. Imagine how much more JJ will outperform Ross once he is allowed to get in his groove. Last time I checked, college Coaches were paid pretty good sums of money to win games. If JJ can match Ross with his very limited play this year, then it's pretty safe to say he will outperform Ross relativley easy if given the chance. That will only help the team. Coach is smart, so there has to be more on the surface than what you or I are speculating about all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 As a university professor I need to take issue with your argument. It is the repsonsibility of every educator to provide the environment to support, challenge and structure for the student to learn. It is also the responsibility of the student to take advantage of the education opportunities and sacrifice to learn and develop. I agree that every student is different and different approaches work better with different styles, but I have never come into a situation that is compelling enough to change the fundementals of classroom style or organizational leadership to meet the needs of one player/ student/ employee. What I have found is that students and employees seek consistency from educators and managers. Flexibility is possible within the framework of consistency. Coach's program is based on hustle and defense. I imagine the equation for playing time is spelled out quite clearly to all players. If you hustle and play defense in practice, you will be rewarded with playing time. I think that this core approach to the team is an excellent one. If you don't think so, imagine this team if they did not play defense or did not hustle (simply dreadful images come to mind.) What I am hearing many say is that Coach needs to make an exception to the fundemental structure of the team to let JJ play without earning time through hustle and defense. JJ is worthy of this special honor not because he is the next Jordan or Hughes, but because he has the potential to be better than Ross Varner. The best case scenario under this plan is that we win 2 more games or so this year and that JJ decides that hustle and defense are things he improves in the future. This is possible, but my guess is that after a year and a half, playing time will not mature JJ. What I know will happen is that the other players on the team will see that what they have been sacrificing for is no longer the standard that the team aspires toward. The equation drilled into their heads no longer equals playing time. When this happens, trouble starts. My guess is that the players who really are gritty and hustle will call coach on it (Fisher, Sloan, Drejaj) and the players who are kind of borderline will no longer feel the need to go 100%. Why should they? JJ doesn't. The risk of playing a player who does not buy into the fundemental structure of the team far outweighs the potential benefit. It seems that Coach is bringing in the kind of skill player that can take this team to the next level. Imagine if they can demonstrate their skills and understand Coach's desire for hustle and defense. What a terrific combination. But to capitalize on this, the program needs team leaders who exemplify and serve as models for hustle and defense and they need a coach who will offer the stability and discipline of structure that does not waiver just because the kid can shoot. All of the talent in the world does no team good if they do not have the fundemental strucure that all understand and buy into. Look 120 to the west and see what happens when talent lacks discipline. I say let JJ earn his time. It will make the accomplishment more meaningful to him and it will show current and future players that a structure and discipline are in place that they can rely on consistency from the coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 great post butch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 Butch, I appreciate your comments. I don't think you understand my point. You may not have read previous posts of mine on other threads, which is okay. I agree with your comments somewhat on the classroom consistency thing. Certainly as a University Professor you know more than I, but I was raised in a family of professors and educators and know a little about the subject as well. First of all, I am not referring to education here. As hard as it is for many to believe, talking about classrooms and students in a similar way to athletes, players, and teams is truly comparing apples and oranges. While I agree you could argue fundamentally that there are many similarities. I have never said that JJ should be handed anything or being considered an excpetion to anything. If I have not conveyed that accurately, I apologize. If anything, I have said the exact opposite in other posts. I said if JJ isn't performing in practice, then Coach should run him into the ground after practice each day until he is so afraid to not practice hard. I have seen many athletes who couldn't bring the same intensity in practice as they could to a game. I have no idea why that is. Maybe it's psychological, I don't know. I don't think we can judge it as laziness either. Then, the others players would see what happens to players when they don't hustle and work every minute. That is tough love right there. Most collegiate basketball / football coaches are the highest paid employees of their university or college. Why is that? The collegiate marketplace has obviously demanded the need for good coaches, all as a result to money. No matter how you cut it, it all comes doen to money. These coaches are paid to win. If Coach Brad has four or five losing seasons in a row (God forbid!!!!), he will more than likely be fired. If he doesn't continue to build this program, the same result will more than likely happen. The same applies for Doug as well. It's that way at most colleges and universities. How are professors measured? I think I know the answer to that, but it's not as easily identified. I had professors at SLU who were easy and almost everybody got A's, and I had others who were so tough and very few got A's. The fact of the matter is though that this could go on more unnoticed as it wasn't in the public eye. The majority of Coach Brad's measurements are plastered everywhere. They look at - if he has put together winning seasons, is he the man to grow this program, does he run the program honestly and ethically and with the highest integrity, what kind of kids is he recruiting, etc. A lot of that is evident to the public. That being said, Coaches responsibility is to see that all happens. If Coach runs a clean program, disciplines his players well, gets hustle out of his players, but 5 years from now the program is worse off than it is today - he will more than likely be fired. They will look to bring someone in that can balance all of that and win as well. All that being said, I not only hope, but feel Brad is the man we want here for a long time. He is a very good Coach and a very good guy. He certainly knows more than all of is in regard to all of this. All I am saying, if the situation is that JJ is truly lazy and doesn't perform, then Coach needs to find a way to make him. Then once he does, I think we need to see if JJ can be an asset on this team. We already know where Ross is in regards to this. We need to win games and lots of them and have to put ourselves in the best position to do just that. I get so mad at so many people being more worried about the future than now. Almost as if we supposed to just blow off this year. We have no idea what the future holds. Injuries, overexpectations, pressure, etc - can all be factors. We can't control any of that. We control now and should be focusing now and on this team. It's pure speculation about JJ in practice anyway. Just because it was mentioned at a Billiken club meeting, over lunch, in a back alley - it doesn't mean it is accurate. There may be stuff going that we don't know about. The fact is JJ may suck and certainly the coaching staff's judge of talent is better than ours. I just am antsy to find out. It seems as if JJ hasn't been given much of a chance to prove that or himself. Or, maybe it's more than any of us know as we only see things that we perceive. Also, I bet 60% (at a minimum) come to college play ball and that is their number one priority. Education is secondary to these 60%. Like I said in my last post, these players are getting full rides and have an obligation to hustle just for that. If they don't, either find a way to make them or let's free up the scholarship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 I appreciate your thoughts, they are well reasoned. I will suggest that most college coaches consider themselves teachers in the faculty sense. Whether they are or not is a matter for another day. You are correct that they are there to win. At a place like Cincinnati it may be to win at all costs, but at SLU the standards are a bit different. My thinking is that Brad has the formula to win, he jsut needs to continue the way he is heading. I do not see how changing the rules for the benefit of one player increases the long term success of the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 Hey Butch, I also don't think ANY coach should change his style for any one player. I think this is where we respectufully disagree though. I don't think leaning on a player more and forcing them to that next level is making an exception for anyone. You can have the best system in place and there can always be a player or student who just doesn't get it or for some reason or just doesn't see the light. When that happens, I think they are kind of forced into doing something to make that happen. But, as I have said so many times before, we still have no idea what is causing this with JJ and what is actually going on. We may have some ideas and can speculate some, but still don't know. It could very well be that Coach has already implemented something with JJ and he just hasn't responded yet and when he does, he may see his time. Who knows. We did see that early on though, when Coach didn't let JJ dress for one game. They told us why that was, but it still seemed like they wanted to keep it under wraps. Hey, maybe we can start rumors. Maybe JJ was arrested and in jail for a couple days and was on the phone with the President's wife......nooo, that wouldn't work, as our President is a priest. Hmmm, I will think of something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 Read my original post - all I said was that treating every student the same is not the most fair. I would hope if a student came to you and said I am having trouble with a particular concept that you would provide that student with more instruction and possibly more practice rather than simply say sorry everybody gets the same or allow somebody to take a retest once you now know that they were having a problem but now know the material. I also said that I know there has to be rules but be careful that the enforcement of a rule just for the sake of enforcing it may not be in the best interest of the program. I think Tonka is correct, there is some other issue that none of us know that is probably causing JJ not to play over Ross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 However, let me counter that I -- as one who has pointed out the differences in learning styles and appealed that Brad Soderberg find another way to motivate Justin Johnson -- am not saying the fundamental structure be changed. I never, ever, said that JJ should be played and allowed to do whatever he wanted. I absolutely agree that JJ, as everyone else on the team, must play hard and play defense. Here's what I'm talking about. Perhaps JJ isn't a practice player. Maybe he gets up for games but just goes through the motions (about three-quarter speed) in practice. My suggestion is that the coaches tell JJ, "We need you, Justin, in order to be as good as we can be as a team, so we're going to put you in there to see how you do. You know we expect you to hustle, play hard, and be committed on defense. If you don't we'll pull you out, and you'll know what you did wrong." Then let's say he plays and plays well, with hustle and effort. At that point everyone will know that he's just not a practice player. My guess, though, is that he'll be deficient in a couple of areas that he should have mastered through practice. Well, then the coaching staff will have examples to show JJ why he must be more dedicated in practice. Perhaps that would inspire and motivate Justin to do what the coaching staff wants more than just telling him and holding him out of game play until he "gets it." Simply, maybe he learns differently. So, I'm not saying that Brad should just give up his demands and play Justin regularly for the rest of the season without his grasping the system and abiding by the coaches' demands. I'm saying that maybe it will take a different method for Justin to "get it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillikenButch Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 I have no quarrel with that. Obviously JJ has been getting some pt and he seems to have some flashes of potential. I hope he improves. In my opinion playing time is a reward. The best get the reward. The way that I see Coach's system, you get rewarded for certain actions. In other programs, say Louisville, you get rewards for different actions. Is JJ a better basketball player than JJ? No. But if he wants real minutes on this team he needs play like the coaches expect. But as my alter ego would say... You know Justin ... You got a special talent, a gift. Not the school's, not the townspeople's, not the team's, not Myra Fleener's, not mine. It's yours, to do with what you choose. Because that's what I believe, I can tell you this: I don't care whether you play on the team or not. - Norman Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 You know Justin ... You got a special talent, a gift. Not the school's, not the Billikens.com poster's, not the team's, not Coach Soderberg's, not mine. It's yours, to do with what you choose. Because that's what I believe, I can tell you this: I care whether you play on the team or not, we need more from you!!! Get off your a## and do what the coaches say, show some frickin respect, hustle every d#mn minute every d#mn day. Do you know how much your frickin tuition costs? You owe this to us! You owe this to your self! We're not giving you much longer, Pal!!!!!!!! - Tonka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastballer45 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 If you pay JJ's tuition then he might owe you something but Im guessing you don't so he doesn't owe you jack ######.Sorry for the language but give me a break you have the nerve to say JJ owes you anything and your not gonna give him much longer I think your going over board and just hopefully letting off steam. We dont own these kids we get to wright about them but when people start saying these kids owe them then maybe some of us need to take a break and really think things through. These kids are on a huge stage for everyone to judge them thats all we get to do but they don't owe us a thing like one of the above posts said they are playing for themselves, their families, and the university. Not us not poster on some board that people come to argue points about a kids performance they don't care about what we say. When they do read this they probably think what a bunch of dumb asses. I guess my main point is don't make stupid comments that some player owes you something because your a fan that kid didn't ask you to be a fan thats what you chose.And if you do think JJ owes you something maybe you should seek some clinical help,most of the times the top floor of the hospital is a good place to look you could probably watch the games from there and show all your friends all the people who owe you something because your a psycho sports fan that doesn't know what your boundries really are when it comes to being a fan. Why don't we all just relaxe and wait for next season thats all you talk about any way. The point guard we dont have the unathletic players we don't have etc.etc. We have a core group of 7 players that will play hard all the time a great coaching staff and a great defense. So im gonna cheer for those players and I hope the rest of you do the same and quit speculating on what a player could be because if they are sitting on the bench it doesn't even really matter does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastballer45 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastballer45 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 There are no games here he either practices hard or he does't play that's what coach is saying. He is not gonna get in JJ's head he has rules that he wants followed and he either does it our he won't play.I think that is the bottom line. But Im sure coach would love your suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastballer45 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 above post for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 In a very small way ... if you are a booster of the team ... in other words donate money that pays for the kids scholarship ... the athletic department should care what you think. ... Now with decisions regarding individual players ... no fans don't really get any say ... and they shouldn't ... but as a whole alumni and boosters do have a say in the running of the athletic department. This concept that you can just not be a practice player is quite humerous. If you are not willing to work hard in practice ( and it is a choice ) then you do not deserve to play in the game. A coach must stick to his principles. If he allows you to slack off in practice ... he shouldn't expect anything other than the same in games. But what we are talking about here is a player ( if that is the problem ) that is not putting out the required effort in practice ... he shouldn't play. Once you bend that rule especially a rule regarding effort ... what about when DC and TF and IV don't put out the effort in practice ... what do you do then ... how do you say to them they can't play in games until they work harder ... they are not stupid they will know you gave in for JJ. How can you justify not giving in to them. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 benefit from the coaches trying a different tactic with Justin to compensate for his different learning style -- if such is actually the case. Coaches have to be able to adjust according to a number of factors. Games require adjustments. Players require adjustments. Etc. What often happens to coaches who insist on "my way or no way" just a little bit too long are shown the highway. We've seen it happen here with Rich Grawer. Brad is still under tremendous pressure to win (maybe not as much as at Kentucky, UCLA, etc., but it's still tremendous pressure comensurate to a tremendous salary), so if he gets talented players that can help him win, he better win. Again, look what happened to Rich Grawer, who had talented players but mismanaged them. We can tell who you're responding to because of the indentation and the words "in response to message #". It's not necessary for you point out, "hey you!" This is a message board where fans can discuss their opinions. I'm not expecting to have the ear of the coaches (though I bet I've spoken to them more than you have) or for them to heed my suggestions, so your sarcastic comment that Coach would love my suggestions makes you look foolish. (First of all, as an aspiring coach, I value Brad's opinion and expect to adopt a lot of what he does.) Your diatribe directed at Tonka was completely over the line. (Learn how to separate your text into paragraphs and punctuate sentences.) Tonka's comments were in jest, for one thing. For another thing, the players do owe the fans something. If it weren't for the fans, some of whom help subsidize the players' scholarships, there would be little to no income or attention and SLU would be a Div. III or NAIA program. If the fans don't contribute, SLU wouldn't be building a new arena. If not for the fans, SLU would be going to the Great Lakes Conference rather than the A-10. Maybe you know it all, but many of us don't, and this is a place for fans to discuss their ideas. If you want to be a yes-man for whatever the coach does, why don't you apply to be his valet so the rest of us can discuss what's on our minds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 I'm not saying that Justin Johnson should be allowed to not practice hard; I'm saying it may take a different approach to help Justin understand that he must practice hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 Thicks ... I don't agree with your position on JJ ... but i do agree with the rest of your post ... well said. I think with JJ it is simple ... is the problem that coach thinks he is not giving his best effort in practice ... if that is it ... then he cannot bend. If it is something else than coach should consider other alternatives to his development. It is just that lack of effort is the one thing no coach should tolerate ... regardless of your skill level. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quality Is Job 1 Posted December 31, 2003 Share Posted December 31, 2003 As I've said in other posts, I agree that practicing hard is paramount. I'm not saying that Brad should allow a long-term situation in which a player plays without playing hard. I'm saying perhaps, perhaps, a one-time experiment with Justin may hammer the point home. If not, then, by all means, sit Justin on the bench until he feels like sandpaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted January 1, 2004 Share Posted January 1, 2004 Well, well, well - what do we have here? You know I'd get into a game of name calling with you and if you've read my posts from day one, you know I shy away from nobody and sometimes stir up confrontation for fun. I've come to learn though, that some people don't deserve that kind of attention from me. I've met some of the people on this board in person and realize I should not be so quick to throw a jab at somebody. I also realized that it's hard to convey your true thoughts in a one dimensional world such as a message board like this one. We don't have the ability to show body language or use voice inflection, hence it's pretty common for things to be taken the wrong way. I logged on and read this message of yours and the first thing I did was laugh. I had to laugh as I couldn't understand what could possibly evoke a response from you like this. I then tried to be empathetic and thought to myself that maybe this guy was having a bad day. I often think about how I am having a bad day and then read a post like this. I realize that despite the day I might be having, some person out there is probably having a worse one. Maybe you are that one person. It would be unfair to simplify it that easy. So, I thought again and said to myself that maybe it's more than just a bad day. Maybe you're just unhappy in life as well. If that is the case, I apologize as no one should have to go through that. But, I'd have to say that if that is true, than you probably bring it upon yourself, judging from this post. Now to think that it's one of those two things for sure, would be unfair to you as well. So, I decided to read my posts in this thread and figure out what specifically set you off. Okay, I now understand. I hesitate to point out to all readers your ignorance, because maybe that is not the case. I think you just lack intuition. That's okay then, because as I stated above this board is one dimensional, so I shouldn't be taken back at all by your comments. Where I confused the ignorance with intuition is that you seemed to ignore all the posts and pick and choose the things that you wanted to pull out and address. I can't get too mad at you for that. The media does that all the time. Maybe like the media you were looking for substance for your post. Unfortunately in doing that, you made yourself look really foolish. As far as the intuition part, I say that because most people are intuitive enough to know that my post where I quoted myself was just a joke. Again, if you had read any of the above posts, you would see I was having a cordial discussion with Billiken Butch and he quoted Gene Hackman's character, Norman Dale, from the movie Hoosiers and I mimicked that with my own quote, hence the hyphen and the name Tonka after it. I guess you missed that part. That's okay though, we all make mistakes and aren't perfect. And no, I wasn't just letting off steam. I do that a lot though as I tend to very passionate about things and I think the Italian in me causes me to be abrasive at times. I try and counter that with humor though so noone thinks I am on this board as just an unhappy person. Which, is something you....okay nevermind. Anyway, I live by two mottos in life. One of them is, and the only one pertinent to tell you at this time is to "Laugh Often". I wholeheartedly believe that. It's healthy for everyone to do and living in this serious world today, it makes people's lives better. As far as your comments about JJ. Again, if you read my posts, I am a big JJ fan. Why, I actually don't know. Maybe it's hope in itself that he appeals to me. It's always good to hope. I have been posting post after post about getting JJ more time and trying to figure out what's going on with JJ, etc. I ask for people's thoughts all the time. It's Varner I do not like. I know that rubs some people wrong, but I can't help it - I do not like him. As far as being a psycho sports fan, that is hardly the case. I love sports but have a life that balances it all out. In fact, there's nothing even in my user name about sports. If I were a psycho, there'd be a good chance I'd have something pertaining to sports in it. Maybe not. As far as being psycho and seeking clinical help, you know I will not claim to be completely sane and I do have quite a temper, and am a pretty high strung guy - but I don't think I'm close to cracking. But, maybe if I do, I will seek clinical help and I will be sure to consult with you on where to go, as you seem to have a grasp on their location for some reason. Maybe past or present experience, or maybe you're just a well rounded, educated guy, but your post kind of contradicts that. Again, who knows. Uh oh, here we go again, back to you not using much sense and posting to pieces of someone's statements as opposed to getting some substance and trying to gain credibility for yourself. If you read my posts you would know, I can't stand constant future lookers. I think I have said that about 50 times now, so I'm not sure who you directed that at. Maybe you weren't directing that at me. Thicks said you were over the line, but that may not be the case. Your post would be over the line if your message was accurate and of substance and then you choose to lash out like you did. For some reason, your post was neither, so it probably was ignorance or maybe a knee jerk reaction and lacked thought, preparation, and research. Once again, who knows. As far as JJ owing me anything, well I never conveyed that. I did say that in my joking quote, but it's pointless to point that out to you as that one went right over your head. But, just to be argumentative, you may be wrong on that. Personally JJ, doesn't owe me anything. Now, if you break it down though, and evaluate any school like SLU and what their annual budget is and what their usual revenue is and where they get that revenue from, you could trace a part of that back to me and many other Billiken fans and supporters. I could get into a ten paragraph post about this, but my gut tells me that I'd probably lose you again if I were to post it today. So, westcoastballer, next time you may want to either show some more intelligence, more intuition, or maybe even just a little preparation, I'd be happy to discuss things with you. Judging from the bite in your post, you should change your username to eastcoastballer. But, that would be sterotyping and we don't want to do that. Well, if it is just you having a bad day, then I am sorry. There's always tomorrow. If it's more than that, well I don't know what to tell you as I do not know you. I do hope you have a Happy New Year though! 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