Brad and recruiting

[kshoe]

I don't think its very even...Tommie gets 2.4 rebounds more per game but James got 2.8 assists more per game. That is about even. But James score 5 points more per game. That is a big difference and quite frankly he did it against better competition. I love TL but on stats alone it really isn't that even.

[davidnark]

>I think Brad has shown enough to deserve another 3-4 years

>to show us what he can do with the program.

Four years of sub .500 basketball earns Brad another 3-4 years? Maybe certain fans' standards and expectations for this program are even lower than I estimated.

[StLouBlue]

>Four years of sub .500 basketball earns Brad another 3-4

>years? Maybe certain fans' standards and expectations for

>this program are even lower than I estimated.

His overall record is 60-61. While you seem to enjoy touting it as sub .500, I think this is misleading. He has had 3 out of 4 seasons of winning basketball along with two NIT appearances. The one season with a losing record was marred by injuries to the top 2 returning senior players.

Since it seems you want Brad fired, then I will repeat the questions I asked above.

What would be your expectations for the next coach then? After 3 years of the next coach of around .500 do we start over again? If the coach after Brad doesn't get any of the top kids in the '08 class does he get a pass or not? Also what kind of coach do you expect SLU to hire in replacing Brad, an already established coach or a hot assistant? Do you see an MVC coach like Lowery or Les leaving for SLU? If you go the assistant route are you ready to go through some rough patches as the coach gets used to being a head coach?

I will also bring over some SLU negatives that Brad can't control from the other thread. I saw you responded to my post there but again ignored most of it.

I also think there are big negatives working against whoever is the coach at SLU. I think it is impossible to recruit a kid and show him a home game where there is no atmosphere in a 3/4 empty building. Not being able to even recruit the majority of JUCO players really hurts the depth of your team. Playing in the A10 where all road games are long road games and where few fans/families can follow the team. None of these are under Brad's control and if you fire Brad, they will still be here for the next coach.

I would be interested in your answers to at least some of what I am asking or pointing out. Cherry picking one line out of my post's is again misleading and really doesn't add much to this discussion.

ps: I would appreciate it if you would hit enter somewhere in your signature line--it is too long and runs the pages off the screen. Thanks.

[davidnark]

This program is in a decent conference, has some of the best facilities in the nation coming online, is in one of the largest metro areas in the country to have only one D1 program, and has a solid base of 7,500+ fans. Both the coach and the university administration have stated that the goal is a "top 50" program. With that base to work from and those publicly stated expecations, I believe that...

...we should expect SLU to make the tournament at least once every four years...20 wins should be the expectation nearly every season...SLU should sign at least one top 150 recruit every year and should sign a top 100 recruit at least every year or two...it is inexcusable for the staff not to be able to sign quality players to fill all of its scholarships, particularly when it knows over a year in advance how many scholarships are available (NOTE: I am not advocating wasting scholarships on untalented players.)...the NIT should never be considered success...the top local players should be excited about the opportunity to play at SLU...win or lose, the college basketball played at SLU should be fun and enjoyable to watch...it is OK for fans to criticize the program when it fails to meet expecations.

These are reasonable expecations for a "top 50" program. Based upon this criteria, Brad should be on the hotseat right now.

[slufanskip]

Did you really say you'd take Lisch in a second over Diener. It might end up that way ... but Diener had one hell of a career.

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[slufanskip]

David ... I agree with everything you said, I just think that we disagree on what it takes to get there. I wouldn't say I agree with the 3 or 4 more years statement ... but I don't think he should be on the hot seat right now. I do think this year is important. If we don't make the tourney ... I still don't know if I would say put him on the hot seat ... depends on the year. If we finish 16-14 and miss all postseason ... then I have a big problem. If we go 20-10 and miss the tourney ... I'm not estatic but I'm not rady to fire him ... I would however have a sit down and make sure they we were together on our expectations. The following year ... we better be dancing.

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[StLouBlue]

>This program is in a decent conference, has some of the best

>facilities in the nation coming online, is in one of the

>largest metro areas in the country to have only one D1

>program, and has a solid base of 7,500+ fans. Both the

>coach and the university administration have stated that the

>goal is a "top 50" program. With that base to work from and

>those publicly stated expecations, I believe that...

>

>...we should expect SLU to make the tournament at

>least once every four years...20 wins should be the

>expectation nearly every season...SLU should sign at least

>one top 150 recruit every year and should sign a top 100

>recruit at least every year or two...it is inexcusable for

>the staff not to be able to sign quality players to fill all

>of its scholarships, particularly when it knows over a year

>in advance how many scholarships are available (NOTE: I am

>not advocating wasting scholarships on untalented

>players.)...the NIT should never be considered success...the

>top local players should be excited about the opportunity to

>play at SLU...win or lose, the college basketball played at

>SLU should be fun and enjoyable to watch...it is OK for fans

>to criticize the program when it fails to meet expecations.

>

>These are reasonable expecations for a "top 50" program.

>Based upon this criteria, Brad should be on the hotseat

>right now.

Okay I am going to address the different points you brought up. SLU does have a good base of 7500 fans, but put those 7500 in a 20,000+ size arena it looks empty. This means that Brad can really only bring out of town recruits in for the big games where we have 10+ fans, last season there were only 4 of those games. New arena should help a lot once it is up and running. Goal might be top 50, but SLU is not there yet and obviously we have differences on how to get there.

I agree that our goals should be at least one NCAA tourney every 4 years and 20 wins every year. The program Brad was hired into was not ready to produce that kind of success. 4 NCAA tourneys and only 6 20+ winning seasons in 25 years, that is what Brad was hired into. This makes his 19 win 2nd season a little more impressive I think.

As far as your statement about one top 150 every year and a top 100 every other year, I am not sure what you are basing that on. I checked the rivals top 150 for the 2006 class.

http://www.rivalshoops.rivals.com/viewrank.asp?ra_key=1428

There are only 8 of the 150 that are going to non-BCS conference teams. Only 3 of those are within the top 100, Gonzaga, Memphis and UAB. Rhode Island, Creighton, Ill St, Charlotte and Memphis again are the other schools with top 150 kids. I am pretty sure that this is Creighton's highest rated recruit since probably Benoit Benjamin in the '80s. I didn't check for past years but I would guess the numbers are about the same, only 5-10% of the top 150 going to non-BCS schools. This is the reality of recruiting. Blasting Brad for not achieving this kind of recruiting success already is just being unfair. I agree with you on open scholarships, especially multiple ones. I know Brad has stated in the past that he likes to have one open scholarship avaliable in case any transfers want to come, so I can understand one, but not two. Now with semesters ending there are kids leaving schools and looking to transfer, I hope Brad can land one of these still.

I do consider the NIT a success for the program. After all if the goal you stated was one NCAA every 4 years, I would want at least one of those other years to be an NIT. While the NIT doesn't have the prestige or money of the NCAA, it is a chance for the postseason and a reward for a good(not great) season.

I imagine that the top local players are excited about SLU because Brad has landed 3 straight classes with very much local flavor. I know he has also said he wants to be more uptempo as well now that he is getting the type of players in that can play that style.

No problem critizing Brad, the coaches, program, athletic dept, and/or admin, I do not want the status quo and I do want to acheive a top 50 program. I just think that your expectations are beyond reasonable at this point. I also think to make a coaching change within the next couple of years would set back the program as well. That said if the wheels fall off a change would have to be made, but I don't expect the wheels to fall off.

[slufanskip]

Blue ... I agree with most of your point ... except I don't think David meant he would be happy with 1 NCAA every 4 years. I wouldn't either. want AT LEAST 50% in the tourney and the NIT to be considered a down year. Anything less is not a top 50 program.

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[davidnark]

>>The program Brad was

>hired into was not ready to produce that kind of success. 4

>NCAA tourneys and only 6 20+ winning seasons in 25 years,

>that is what Brad was hired into. This makes his 19 win 2nd

>season a little more impressive I think.

That is one way to position the situation Brad walked into. However, I would view it as Brad walked into a program that had 4 NCAA appearances in the last 9 years and was one of the top 30 programs in the nation in attendance during that period. Frankly, the pre-1992 history is not a good benchmark because the program competed in a much lower caliber conference with a much lower budget, resources, and home court facility.

>There are only 8 of the 150 that are going to non-BCS

>conference teams. Only 3 of those are within the top 100,

>Gonzaga, Memphis and UAB. Rhode Island, Creighton, Ill St,

>Charlotte and Memphis again are the other schools with top

>150 kids.

Look at the top 150 recruits over the last five years. Programs that are regularly on that list include all of the above, plus Xavier, Dayton, and St. Joes. If Brad can't compete with those programs in recruiting, then we are all wasting our time and money following Billiken basketball.

>I do consider the NIT a success for the program. After all

>if the goal you stated was one NCAA every 4 years, I would

>want at least one of those other years to be an NIT. While

>the NIT doesn't have the prestige or money of the NCAA, it

>is a chance for the postseason and a reward for a good(not

>great) season.

The NIT is a bad concellation tournament that serves not purpose. This point is a matter of opinion, but top 50 programs are never excited about the NIT.

>I imagine that the top local players are excited about SLU

>because Brad has landed 3 straight classes with very much

>local flavor. I know he has also said he wants to be more

>uptempo as well now that he is getting the type of players

>in that can play that style.

For two straight seasons, Brad has talked about increasing the tempo; the reality is that the balance of his coaching philosophy (i.e., defense, rebounding, releasing players upcourt, etc.) doesn't allow for it. Recruits want to see results, not dialogue. With respect to the local recruits, Liddell and Lisch were great pick ups, but Brad hasn't proven that he can corner the top local talent. Kalen Grimes, Matt Shaw, and Lance Stemler are all local kids who Brad couldn't land. I am personally skeptical about Brad's next recruiting class. I hope I am wrong.

[davidnark]

Skip, I think we are more or less on the same page. You are just a little more optimistic about Brad than I am.

[3star_recruit]

>There are only 8 of the 150 that are going to non-BCS

>conference teams. Only 3 of those are within the top 100,

>Gonzaga, Memphis and UAB. Rhode Island, Creighton, Ill St,

>Charlotte and Memphis again are the other schools with top

>150 kids.

Look at the top 150 recruits over the last five years. Programs that are regularly on that list include all of the above, plus Xavier, Dayton, and St. Joes. If Brad can't compete with those programs in recruiting, then we are all wasting our time and money following Billiken basketball.

Sorry David, the only programs on that list that regularly landed top 150 recruits over the last five years were Gonzaga, Charlotte, Memphis and Xavier. Yet somehow UAB, Creighton, Dayton and St. Joe's have managed to field successful programs, as have Manhattan, SIU, Northern Iowa and Wisconsin-Milwaukee. Non-BCS schools succeeding with under the radar recruits that fit into a system are the rule rather than the exception. Dayton was actually more successful under Purnell's system than they have been with Gregory's more highly touted recruits.

[slufanskip]

I agree ... we both want the same things, I think UB can be the guy to get it done, you don't ... but I don't think we are that far apart on UB. It seems you think that he should be given this year ... but produce a tourney bid ... or else. I don't know that I feel that way. I expect to play in the tourney and will be dissapointed if it doesn't happen ... but I don't like the or else thing ... imo it is just not a good way of doing things. I don't think it should ever be dealt with that way ... Cheryl and Brad should have be talking and there should be a clear understanding of expectatiions ... and then you evaluate at the end of the year ... if you feel the program is moving forward and UB is still the guy to get it done you move on ... if not change.

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[davidnark]

>Sorry David, the only programs on that list that regularly

>landed top 150 recruits over the last five years were

>Gonzaga, Charlotte, Memphis and Xavier. Yet somehow UAB,

>Creighton, Dayton and St. Joe's have managed to field

>successful programs, as have Manhattan, SIU, Northern Iowa

>and Wisconsin-Milwaukee. Non-BCS schools succeeding with

>under the radar recruits that fit into a system are the rule

>rather than the exception. Dayton was actually more

>successful under Purnell's system than they have been with

>Gregory's more highly touted recruits.

I stand corrected. Below is the list of top consensus 100 high school recruits (excludes jucos, int'l players, and prep school transfers) over the last 5 years. I listed notable programs in non-BCS conferences. However, I didn't cite Memphis, which lands about 2 top 100 recruits/year. Marquette, DePaul, and Missouri were also heavily represented on these lists. (Marquette signed 3 top 100 recruits in 2005.) I also know that during this period, Dayton has had several highly touted, very sought after recruits that for whatever reason didn't make these lists. While my facts may have been technically incorrect, my position is still the same--to consistently compete with the likes of Charlotte, Xavier, Marquette, DePaul, Dayton, etc., we have to land top 100 recruits at least every couple years. Otherwise, we will always be at a talent disadvantage.

2001: http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_PostSeason_2001.htm

Charlotte - 2 top 100 recruits

Xavier - 1 top 100 recruit

2002: http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_PostSeason_2002.htm

Charlotte - 2 top 100 recruits

Xavier - 1 top 100 recruit

2003: http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_PostSeason_2003.htm

Charlotte - 1 top 100 recruit

UMass - 1 top 100 recruit

Valpo - 1 top 100 recruit

Richmond - 1 top 100 recruit

2004: http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2004.htm

Xavier - 1 top 100 recruit

Gonzaga - 2 top 100 recruits

2005: http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2005.htm

Gonzaga - 1 top 100 recruit

[StLouBlue]

That is one way to position the situation Brad walked

>into. However, I would view it as Brad walked into a

>program that had 4 NCAA appearances in the last 9 years and

>was one of the top 30 programs in the nation in attendance

>during that period. Frankly, the pre-1992 history is not a

>good benchmark because the program competed in a much lower

>caliber conference with a much lower budget, resources, and

>home court facility.[/b]

Fair enough, looking at it now I was probably overstating the negatives on SLU history going back 25 years. I don't think attendance is a positive for us now or has been for the last few years into Romar's time. This is because our crowd is dwarfed by the size of the Savis.

>Look at the top 150 recruits over the last five years.

>Programs that are regularly on that list include all of the

>above, plus Xavier, Dayton, and St. Joes. If Brad can't

>compete with those programs in recruiting, then we are all

>wasting our time and money following Billiken basketball.

After I made my post last night I did look back at some past years in Rivals and I think saying around 15-20 kids out of the top 150 go to non-BCS schools is a little more accurate. That said a lot of these were probably one time type recruits, Jackson St and Prairie View each had a top 150 kid. I am not enough of a college basketball expert to know how these kids have done, but I did see a lot of names for Mizz in those years and only Gardner and Kleiza probably maintained that top 150 status in college.

Brad has been getting a lot of the local talent in the recent years, this year it seemed the local talent level was down, but he still got probably the 2 of the 3 best players that filled needs for the team.

>The NIT is a bad concellation tournament that serves not

>purpose. This point is a matter of opinion, but top 50

>programs are never excited about the NIT.

I think we are just going to have to disagree on this point. While I don't ever want our goal to be the NIT, I look at any postseason opportunity as a reward. I also think that unless our conference improves from top to bottom it will be that much more unlikely to receive bids for the NCAA.

>For two straight seasons, Brad has talked about

>increasing the tempo; the reality is that the balance of his

>coaching philosophy (i.e., defense, rebounding, releasing

>players upcourt, etc.) doesn't allow for it. Recruits want

>to see results, not dialogue. With respect to the local

>recruits, Liddell and Lisch were great pick ups, but Brad

>hasn't proven that he can corner the top local talent.

>Kalen Grimes, Matt Shaw, and Lance Stemler are all local

>kids who Brad couldn't land. I am personally skeptical

>about Brad's next recruiting class. I hope I am wrong.

I agree as far as the style of play. I am not a fan of Brad's style of play either. I hope that he is able to make adjustments and gain flexiblity in his system with the talent we have on hand. This season will be a key in changing how the program is viewed for both the fans and potential recruits. That said winning is the bottom line and if we end the year around 20 wins, that is probably the most important factor in him retaining his job.

I will also repeat what I had said in that earlier post, I think to fire Brad after a winning season would set back our program. Unless you can assure me that SLU will hire an established coach with a proven record and reputation, I don't see changing coaches at that point as helping our program.

[3star_recruit]

"While my facts may have been technically incorrect, my position is still the same--to consistently compete with the likes of Charlotte, Xavier, Marquette, DePaul, Dayton, etc., we have to land top 100 recruits at least every couple years."

And as I stated, there are programs that ARE achieving at the level of those programs on the court WITHOUT landing top 100 recruits every couple of years. I even gave you examples.

[davidnark]

>"While my facts may have been technically incorrect, my

>position is still the same--to consistently compete with the

>likes of Charlotte, Xavier, Marquette, DePaul, Dayton, etc.,

>we have to land top 100 recruits at least every couple

>years."

>

>And as I stated, there are programs that ARE achieving at

>the level of those programs on the court WITHOUT landing top

>100 recruits every couple of years. I even gave you

>examples.

I agree it can be done; however, with maybe the notable exception of Carbondale, it is rarre for a program to maintain a high level of success without this caliber of recruit. When perhaps our two most notable foes over the next five years--Charlotte and Xavier--are recruiting at that level, it becomes even more critical for us to do the same.

[Billiken Rich]

I'd take Lisch half-sized over Deiner. Travis cried more in one game against the Bills than Kevin did his entire life.......

[slufanskip]

Rich ... you need to show Billsboy some respect. ;) He is an ex D1 player and Coach.

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[Admin]

test

[kevinfootes]

I did a post on here that somehow got deleted, but I will re-state the essence. I haven't read any posts on here from people who can evaluate talent. There are none. This is a fan board.

I don't understand why a post like this gets deleted while attacks on families are encouraged.

[slufanskip]

footes ... are you sure it got deleted. It doesn't seem like something Steve would do. Regarding your post, I agree ... I've been saying that. (except for the ex D1 player and coach Billsboy) We are all just fans, some a little better than others at evaluating talent. Some people will claim to be in the know because they get one right here and there ... and with some players it is of course obvious, especially when the opinion is backed up by real experts. As for myself ... I admit I'm just giving an opinion.

I thought Ian would turn out to be the player he has ... and said so since day 1. I missed badly (so far) on Dwayne, I thought he would be a catalyst for this team helping to take them to the dance. He has not been as good as I thought he would be. Drejaj turned in a better Sr year than I ever thought he would. I still think Bryce will be a starter and a good player for us as a sr. ... yet to be determined.

Now I know someone will say ... this is a fan board ... what else is it for ... if not for fans to give opinions ... I agree, give all you want ... it just gets me that some people state them as if they are facts and then others claim to have some sort of back ground which is clearly false. Everyone should give thier opinion though and if it's what they really think ... argue all day long ... just realize it's just your opinion and it may not be right.

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[3star_recruit]

"I've been saying that. (except for the ex D1 player and coach Billsboy) We are all just fans, some a little better than others at evaluating talent."

I think you underate yourself. You have eyes so you have the ability to evaluate talent. It's when people mistake running and jumping without a purpose for talent or resorting to tired maxims like "you can't teach height" that they run into trouble.

[kevinfootes]

With all of the updates I'm not shocked something got deleted.

[slufanskip]

You make a good point ... obviously we can all evaluate talent ... but most of us aren't as good at it as we like to think we are. I miss alot.

We can all get Tommie and Kevin right ... it's the next tier down that proves to be harder. For example how many of us would have guessed JJ right ... if we would have watched him play in an open Gym ... I would have missed.

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[billikenmetz]

I like your evaluation, but the bottom line is that a coach needs to adapt and work with what he has and make the most of it. Honestly, can you tell me Brad has done that in his four years at Saint Louis? No. He has not, plus we have a fan base who remains complacent in our evaluation of Brad.

He needs to be front and center on the hotseat for this season.

A. No NCAA appearances. When comparable teams like Wichita State, Bradley, SMS, Creighton and SIU make the dance year in and year out and have the same midwestern recruiting pool, something is wrong.

B. Recruiting. Liddell and Lisch were gifts that fell on Brad's lap. He should take no credit for them. Credit for McGuire, maybe, but let's see how he pans out. We need to get some serious big-time recruits to SLU. Guys that have a desire to win at all costs. We can't blame academics or anything like that for not landing the blue chips. We need a coach that can land them because they want to play for the guy. I don't even think Kramer wants to play for him.

I'll stop there. Brad is on the Budwesier Hot Seat.