Is Soderberg the Answer?

[moytoy12]

Sorry, i phrased the question poorly. You're right, it's not an either/or proposition.

If you are asking me personally if i fire him? Depends on what happened during the season, the recruits coming in, potential coaches on the horizon, etc. Assuming the team stays relatively healthy, no significant recruit(s) is(are) coming in (I know nothing on the recruiting front, so i will have to take the consensus of the people in the know on this board to get a feel for the recruit(s)) and there is a hot coaching prospect with good recruiting ability, then I certainly consider it.

[slufanskip]

Ian made great strides last year averaging about 10 and 7 as a starter ... he continued that improvement this year. I'm sure the Greek team helped but I would bet he gets most his development work with the Bills.

As far as UB goes ... I have ZERO, ZILCH, NO thoughts at this time of whether he should be the Bills Coach ... I say a resounding YES.

We are a better team this year than I thought we would be. We finished badly. We played better at times than I thought we could and worse others ... but overall I think we made good improvement. When he starts regressing ...

Lets hope for a NIT bid and see if our guys can put a better finish on the season

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[StLouBlue]

Scholarships are for one year and then renew for the next year. Doesn't happen very often, but once in a while a school does decide not to renew a scholarship for a player.

The way this is usually handled is the coach sits down with the player and explains that there is no way they are getting any playing time next year. The coach then offers some names of smaller schools where the player wouldn't have to sit out a year or suggests Div 1 schools where player would have to sit out but where said players talents may be better put to use.

[moytoy12]

I have not called for soderberg's head. I have, however, raised questions about his tactics. These are the same points that I have been raising most of the year.

[StLouBlue]

I understand everyone's disappointment at the way we finished up this year, but questioning if Brad is the one to get us over the hump is completely the wrong question.

The question that should be asked is something along the lines of, "Is Brad developing our basketball program to the point where winning seasons and tournament bids happen regularly?" It sounds like you are looking for a quick turnaround and if that isn't going to happen then we should move in another direction. I think that is the last thing SLU needs to do. SLU needs to develop some consistancy in it's athletic department and it's MBB head coaches. We are on our 4th or 5th AD and 4th HC in the last 15 years, this is not the way to develop a program.

Brad has the program headed in the right direction, I think just about everyone can see that, if not think about where we were in the months after Romar left. We could possibly be in a postseason tournament for the 3rd time in Brad's 4 years, while it is NIT each time, any postseason shows some success. Sure there are things that I want to see improved upon, recruiting or developing a 4, better/more consistant offense, quicker in game adjustments, etc. Like I posted somewhere earlier, I feel Brad is also still developing as a coach. This year Martelli and Gregory pretty much owned him, I expect he will work at this and be a little more ready for them next year.

[SLUDrew]

If, as you say, Gregory owned Soderberg, did SLU make the wrong hire when it chose Soderberg over Gregory?

[moytoy12]

Impossible to answer.

[Billiken Rich]

Gregory owned brad but where as brad can't find a power forward Gregory can't find a point guard. Put both teams together and it'd be the stuff of legends.

[cheeseman]

Brad has to follow up last year's recruiting class with a sound one this year. If not then we are no farther along than two years ago and that two steps forward and two steps back stuff has got to stop. He can strenghen his recruiting class this year with two nice JUCCO PFs. The do not have to be world beaters but can simply be of the Kenny Brown ilk. I know Kenny could not hit a FT to save his life but he could rebound. If all we do next year is improve our rebounding - cut down on the number of offensive rebounds we give up - against our better opponents we win more games. I also can not help but to believe we can not get Dustin/Danny Brown/Polk/Luke to provide at least the same level of shooting that AD gave - they just have to be more consistent. Now if you want significant improvement then a very good shooter has to be found - where, I have no freakin idea.

[jp18]

I think we need to keep things in perspective. I was a big Lorenzo Romar fan and we now see what a great coach he is with what he has done in Washington. But he didn't exactly have this program heading towards greatness. He did take us to one NCAA tournament appearance in three years, but that was the only postseason appearance he made in his time with the team. I don’t remember anyone trying to run him out of town at any point during his tenure. I just think we need to calm down after a rough stretch of games and take a step back and look at our history. I don’t want to settle for mediocrity, but Rome wasn’t built in a day.

And we don't want to settle for the NIT, but if we get in this year, that gives us three postseason appearances in four years. And Romar was seven games over .500 his time with the team while Soderberg is a game under .500 - those numbers aren't too far off. I think my point is, as mentioned, that it is going to take some time for this program to get to the next level on a consistent basis. We are headed in the right direction, though, and I remain upbeat about our future with Soderberg as our coach.

[Sheltiedave]

Gregory got dayton into the big dance in his first years, and then has fallen dramatically. Metz would have Gregory fired by now.

Gregory would have three new majors in basketweaving, sports management, and commercial welding.

Gregory would already be at a new Big 12 school, and we would have Floyd Irons coaching a Vashon dominated team that just wrapped up a 11-18 season, averaging 82 ppg and looking lost in the A10.

Most of you naysayers have never managed or run a business outside of a lemonade stand, and don't understand the difference between short, medium, and long range goals, or organizational development. Outside of a Larry Hughes or Tyler Hansbrough, there are few players that step into a program and are a day one dominating starter. We certainly don't have that quality in Tommie, Kevin, or Ian.

What we have now is a winning team that plays cutthroat defense and struggles scoring points, but has improved markedly from last year. I'm sure this won't sit well with all the baby-tossers, but we will improve again next year, and probably make the dance as the second/third team from the A10.

Brad and his staff are doing things the hard way, taking no shortcuts, and working their asses off. As a fan, I don't like how we closed the season, but I also am not going to lose a second of sleep worrying about next year. We'll be better.

[WH]

After following St. Louis for a first full season, I’d have to say as an outsider that I am even more impressed than I was before with Soderberg’s coaching on the defensive side of the ball. That’s clearly why the Bills did so well in their first year in the A-10.

Of course, the team did struggle at times on offense and the Bills need to improve in that area. Every great team needs to get some easy baskets, and more of them than their opponents.

Unless Soderberg changes the makeup of the team, however, I don’t see a huge improvement in that regard. Whatever improvement comes will be a result of the maturing of the team’s younger players.

***

Some (rather lengthy) backstory. I’ve been following the A-10 since 1983. Except for a few of the great Temple and UMass teams, you can find a consistently common theme among the best A-10 squads in the past 23 years. Almost every one of them had one good postman and THREE wing players who could penetrate, dish and shoot – the so-called triple threat.

St. Joe’s during the Nelson reign was a perfect example. Indeed, they went a step further, utilizing as many as five shooters. Yet the shooters would not have been nearly as effective without the dribble-penetration of Nelson and Delonte West. Penetration, of course, was vital to creating the space and opportunities for the shooters. And Nelson and West were able to penetrate in large part because they could also shoot. A virtuous circle, If you will.

At the same time, Martelli was able to utilize the athleticism of his wing players to apply pressure defense, particularly in the halfcourt. They pushed the other team’s offense further out and made them use up some clock just to set up. St. Joe’s seldom gambled, however, and rarely gave up easy baskets like teams that trap and press full court.

Martelli has been the most innovative offensive coach in the A-10 since Tom Penders’ two-year run at Rhode Island in the late 1980s. In an article a few years ago, Martelli said the relative demise of college bigmen and the importance of the 3-point line meant it was even more important to put as many ball handlers and shooters on the floor at the same time.

Ideally, he’d like four of his players on the floor at any one time to be able to hit the trey, with at least three of them being able to handle the ball. You need all the ball-handlers to avoid the press and to maximize pressure in attacking the weak spots on defense, he said. At the same time, defensive quickness could create some easy opportunities for baskets off turnovers.

Since it’s not always easy for the A-10 to find offensively talented postmen, Martelli has put a premium on finding athletic big guys who can rebound and block shots. Whatever points they get are gravy. He runs a motion offense to minimize the weakness in the paint.

As a result, it’s rare to see a St. Joe’s team that puts more than one low-post guy in the game at any one time. And whoever he is, rarely is he a plodding type of bigman. To Martelli, slow and flat-footed is deadly. You don’t have to be superquick, but you do have to be mobile.

Martelli is not inflexible, though. Because of a gap in recruiting, he didn’t have enough quick wing players to play his preferred style over the past two years. With a slower team, he was forced to adopt a more patterned offense. And he’s succeeded (Which is why he is such a great coach).

Despite a slower team, however, the Hawks can still field a lineup with three good 3-point shooters and three others who are a threat from deep. That helps the Hawks stretch defenses. This partly explains the Hawks' current winning streak.

Fortunately for the Hawks, the program is finally earning the benefits of the Nelson-West years in terms of recruiting. Martelli has racked up his two best back-to-back classes ever, at least on paper. Next season, they welcome three highly regarded guards from the greater Philly-NJ area. It may be a while before they earn Martelli’s trust and he lets them loose, however.

*****

When I look at the Bills, and most other A-10 teams, I don’t see sufficient ball handling and outside shooting ability.

Indeed, I would say the single biggest problem in the A-10 this season was a lack of good point play. The A-10 is a league that usually has terrific guard play. When we don’t have that, we struggle. (The irony is that we have as many good big guys as we’ve had in a long time).

For the most part, GW and St. Joe’s were the only teams to get steady and above-average play from the point in the 2005-06 season. I don’t think I’ve seen worse point play, on a cumulative basis, in all the years I have watched the A-10.

A number of teams have had major struggles at point, including Dayton, Xavier, Charlotte, Fordham, LaSalle, Richmond, St. Bonaventure, UMass early in the season and Temple (Mardy Collins is not a playmaker.).

St. Louis hasn’t exactly fared well in this area, either.

The good news is that teams appear to be resolving their problems at point. Xavier has a well regarded transfer coming in. Charlotte signed arguably the top-rated juco PG. Dayton has signed a very good juco PG. UMass has a potential star in frosh PG Chris Lowe, who led the league in assists during conference play. LaSalle, Temple and Rhody have signed good recruits in the backcourt.

I don’t know if the A-10 will be better next year in terms of how many NCAA bids it receives, but the league should be better overall in 2006-07 than it was in the most recent season.

Even if I am correct, the Bills should still make a lot of hay. Whether you score a lot of points, however, is an open question. You lose one of your better shooters – surprisingly enough – in Drejaj. And it’s unclear if the redshirt Ikeakor or frosh McQuire can help you much in that regard.

That means Liddell and Polk need to improve their outside shot, and Meyer and Brown have to show greater consistency. At this point, only Lisch represents a consistent threat. You can be sure defenses will zero in on him next year -- to a much greater extent than they did this season.

As for dribble penetration, Liddell obviously has a gift, and Lisch can do some damage as well. But who else can consistently break defenses down AND finish? Polk and Brown certainly haven’t so far.

Without major improvement in both areas, St. Louis can still vie for a top spot in the A-10 standings. You’ve got the necessary “big†in IV and you’ve got two guys on the wing who can handle the ball and score. In a league whose guard play is below its usual level, that might be enough to win a league title.

Like this season, however, you won’t have much margin for error. You still arent going to get lots of easy baskets but you won’t give up many easy hoops, either.

The upshot is a lot of close games again, and a few rather unexpected losses. Nothing is going to come particularly easy.

As I have noted before, and as this thread makes clear, Soderberg still has a problem with recruiting, period. The team needs a better base of talent.

Frankly, I am disappointed by his single fall signing after a stellar class with Lisch, Liddel and hopefully Ikeakor. He really needs to do some work this spring – to follow up one good class with another.

[moytoy12]

"Most of you naysayers have never managed or run a business outside of a lemonade stand, and don't understand the difference between short, medium, and long range goals, or organizational development."

Gotta love sweeping comments like this that seem to have no basis in something other than cyberspace. Perhaps the naysayers understand the difference in short, medium and longe range goals, or organizational development, but their understanding is different or even opposed to yours.

[Sheltiedave]

So Moytoy, throw Brad out? Start over with yet another coach? Postpone the program development another three years, while our previous coaches rack up wins and accolades as we stagnate?

The administration thinks enough of Brad's staff and the team that they are sinking 80 mil into a new stadium. Most people on this forum are too lazy to realize that there is a significant past, present, and future with Brad and company. We have a class program that needs to improve on the floor, and is poised to do so.

Hence the lemonade stand. And when I say most people, we do know who I'm talking about. The University is into my pocket for more than I care to admit, and I see a bright future with Brad. He did it at Wisky, he'll do it here, or we can watch him do it somewhere else.

[moytoy12]

Are you assuming that Brad would go elsewhere and rack up wins, or just speaking to Romar?

Even though your previous comment wasn't directed at me, i don't advocate firing Brad. I do advocate logical, pointed questions about Brad's coaching and if deficiencies in Brad's coaching aren't improved upon, then yes, at some point, it makes sense to question his position with the team. Brad goes by the same philosophy, otherwise JJ would have been starting at the 4 all season, the same goes for DP. JJ and DP had deficiencies, they weren't improved upon, therefore, their position with the team negatively changed. We can't hold Brad to his own standard?

"The administration thinks enough of Brad's staff and the team that they are sinking 80 mil into a new stadium."

You think the arena is being built strictly for Brad's staff and the team? It isn't being built with an eye on future recruits and future coaches (should the school need to recruit coaches in the future)? It isn't being built to improve upon the high schoolish facilities that are currently occupied by the program? And is the administration sinking 80 million into the arena? I may be wrong, but i thought there was a fundraising effort that limited the administration's funding of the arena. And you're accusing others of not understanding the difference between short, medium and long range goals or organizational development. Hey pot, my name is kettle.

[VTIME]

>Bickel didn't attend DeSemt. And I wouldn't excatly rule

>out a player based on his school's history. Or we'd be

>saying it about most of the metro area. What schools have

>produced multiple high quality college saccess big men? The

>ones mentioned for DeSmt dominated the high school level.

>...which is actually a step above may other schools.(Ries

>had solid career at Wymoning, Baniak underachieved at SLU,

>Howard played at Dartmouth, Stockbarger Valpo, Kohnen was

>star at Navy, many others at D-II or smaller D-I)....no not

>high d-I level. But who has? The V? Nope. Woods and

>White out of Ritter, that is two....what about anyone else?

Bonner, Robinson, Gordon

[billikendave]

WH,

Great post. Thank you again for your great insight into the A-10 which is pretty accurate. I was at Dayton when they joined the A-10 and Mark Ashman (mobile big who could score), Tony Stanley and Coby Turner plus others were good guards who could shoot the three. Dayton was successful with the model which you set forth.

SLU runs their motion offense which is designed for shooters. Without "shooters," everything breaks down and SLU's offense stalls. Polk and Danny Brown's inability to consistently shoot from the outside could lead to the downfall of this team. If DB can shoot it, SLU succeeds -- see GW game.

[former_d1]

I think he has already taken us to the next level. When I started following the Billikens (last year of spoon), Romar took over and never got any talent to come here (we were close, but no even Perry was a Romar recruit).

Long story short, Brad has got more talent. I think we will have to give him another year or two to see what he does with the up graded talent.

[VTIME]

>"he brought IV here, and turned a clumsy teenager into a

>first-team all-conference player"

>

>Did coach turn IV into the first-team all conference player

>or did the coaches with the Greek National Team? Seems that

>IV's played improved due in large part to his conditioning

>and playing last summer.

IV improved because Soderberg had to play him last year because of the injuries. If Varner was still here, he would've played him. He would've sat Ian if he could've. An injury made him use Ian. I would hope that in a lost season he would the sense to see that kids need on the court time to develop. He flagrantly misused a talent like Ohanon. I'm very unpleased with his player development. Is Newborne any better than when he came? Polk? And it took him half a season to see that throwing another wing into the lineup would help more than playing Liddell at pf. And it took him half a season to realize that Liddell was a pg. How about recruiting a 6'6 power forward who's slow, cant jump, and like to stay on the perimeter shooting 3's. Newborne was such a coup.

[courtside]

Robinson wasn't successful on the college level, and Gordon played mid major, on a bad team. If that is the best you can do from the V over decades, not impressed as being any different than the other schools.

[VTIME]

>Robinson wasn't successful on the college level, and Gordon

>played mid major, on a bad team. If that is the best you

>can do from the V over decades, not impressed as being any

>different than the other schools.

Gordon was all-conference and is better any pf SLU had this year.

[VTIME]

Soderberg needs to land some Ryan Hollins type guys. Some Izik Ohanon's. The last two years, he has done a great job. He's gotten 4 of the 5 guys from the 2004 All-Metro team. The area's best. He's done a good job of a late, but he's still let Ahearn, and Shipley slip away. Can you imagine Liddell, Lisch and Ahearn in the backcourt. Oh wait, he'd start Drejaj over Tommie or Blake. Need outside shooting? You let Shipley and Fuhrmeyer and and Laurie's get away.

[Sheltiedave]

Well, Moytoy, call me after you've managed your first multi-million dollar project, and I'll rescind the comment for you.

Debating ad homenium arguments with only one side presenting is ridiculous. Brad won at D3, helped take Wisky to the FF D1, and he's not good enough for Saint Louis?

As for the stadium, yes, they are building it for Brad. The major sport that will generate revenue at this facility is the men's bball team, which still is coached by Brad. We can argue sematics, but the most significant end user is bball, no matter how you slice that sushimi.

[courtside]

The topic wasn't whether or not Gordon was better than current SLU players...

Other than Anthony Bonner, would you list to me all the Vashon post players that have gone on to high major success in college and possibly beyond? You had to reach for Robinson and Gordon. In all the glory of Vashon's history, those were the first two you came up with? In a word wow.

I am not knocking Vashon, merely pointing out to 3 Star, that he easily could have made his remark with refernce about the V many other local high school teams. Compared to many of the area teams I would argue the success rate of the school he chose to pick out has been better. His comment seemed misplaced, or at least incomplete to not include the others...even highly successful programs such as the V.

I am open to a LONG list someone wants to provide me.

LaPhaonso Ellis and who else at Lincoln or the since combined schools on the East Side...in the past twenty or more years. Ritter had two I mentioned. David Lee and who else at Chaminade?

[moytoy12]

You call it "semantics", I call it me addressing the fact that you suffered from the same accusation you presented. I wasn't arguing what you meant by short, medium or long range goals, but rather, the fact that your arguments were self defeating.

Should i call you right this second? Or how about you call me when you manage your first multi-hundred million dollar "going private" transaction or merger/acquisition or IPO or v.c. deal.

Regardless, my dad can beat up your dad.