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[aj_arete]

Can't see how he survives the fallout from that.

[Taj79]

.... that's all these statements are. The don't confirm nor deny what the tapes say. They acknowledge they were coming and I think everyone knew that. It just about national standard policy for no one to comment on litigation or investigations that are underway. Anyhting said ... said in haste, anger, whatever .... will come back later to haunt whomever says it. And don't think for a moment that there won't be other bills and lawsuites to pay once the NCAA thing is over. These statements are standard ... they confirm the obvious and release no further information that can be used now or later.

If we need stuff later, we'll meet behind closed doors, under client-attorney privledges and go from there. I can't figure out where all this is going to lead. This is a great movie in the making. It really is ..... I'd watch this a lot more than the Long Island Lolita story. Evenmore than ESPN's Playmakers ... no wait, now I know who Playmakers is based on ... the life of Lawrence Taylor.

[Taj79]

I think Quin makes it .... how fast did the president of St. Bonnies resign when the "Welding Degree" fiasco became public? And Van Breda Kolff? Of course, St. Bonnies was never going to the Final Four like the Tigers are. If I were a Mizzou fan, I'd give them credit for not bailing out. If I weren't a Mizzou fan, I'd probably think as most on this board do in that they're circling the wagons and riding the storm out.

In reality, I don't really care what happens to the boys in Boone. But the drama is great!

[Quality Is Job 1]

...or at least very ignorant. What the heck is "talking like their still in the 'hood"? Simply put, your suggestion that speaking in African-American English Dialect indicates that a person is uneducated is racist, ignorant, or both. Even the most highly-educated people in the world speak the way they're comfortable when they're with their cronies. What you folks consider "bad English" is actually a structured dialect with rules and conventions of its own, just as so-called proper English. I have a degree in English and will one day be an English teacher, yet the way I talk in some situations is not radically different from the way Mrs. Floyd and Mrs. Stewart talk. A lot of you "Ebonics-is-bad-English" folks need to be educated yourselves.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I do not think that is Afican American dialect..it is just not good speaking skills. I hear black and white people alike talk like that and it makes me cringe. Replacing "am" with "be" is not a dialect, it is just not right. It makes the person look like a moron. Some of the sentences used by both the women and Clemons were barely coherent. If a person goes to a job interview and speaks in this fashion, there chaces of recieving that job over a correct speaker are slim to none. I admit that I may increase my profanity and say certain things I normally wouldn't with my buddies, but I always speak in an educated manner forming grammatically correct sentences. If correctly conjugating verbs is no longer required in English classes, I have lost a lot of faith in our English teachers...

[billikendave]

I don't get why Mizzou fans want Quin. Frankly, all of this scandal eventually falls on his lap. He brought Clemons in. He brought the assistant coaches in. He asked Floyd to watch over & mentor Clemons. There is all sorts of smoke about paying players.

Even if it isn't true, the reputation hit for Mizzou is still tremendous. If it is true, Quin (or his assistants) have paid players to attend Mizzou. His greatest attribute is recruiting which is where this hits the hardest.

If I was a Mizzou fan, I wouldn't want this guy. There are other coaches. There are other options.

I heard on KFNS a Columbia sportscaster talking about Mizzou fans. He said "If Mizzou won the national championship on April 1 and on April 2, the NCAA put Mizzou on probation, most Mizzou fans would make this trade." I found this statement shocking....

[3star_recruit]

Speaking ebonics around your buddies has nothing to with with speaking correct English in a job interview. A lot of us are fully capable of doing both.

[Quality Is Job 1]

African American English IS a dialect and there is an explanation behind the use of "be" other than to say it's improper conjugation. Its roots lie in the African languages imported slaves spoke before they were assimilated.

There has been too much scientific and linguistic research that disproves your notions that African American Engish (also known -- incorrectly, in my opinion -- as Ebonics) is just "poor, street talk." I suggest you take a course in Black English or pick up a book by John Rickford, John Baugh, and/or Geneva Smitherman.

If you do that you'll see that African American English Dialect (Vernacular) is indeed a dialect with structure. People speak grammatically correct AAE sentences.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Your point is taken and I will drop the subject for the sake of the board; however, I do disagree (and I in no way consider myself to be a racist...i have friends of many different ethnic backgrounds and lifestyles).

Being born in New Jersey, attending school at SLU and living in Nashville, I have been exposed to a large amount of different American cultures. Especially here in Nashville, I have been exposed to a large amount of the "Deep south". These people talk with thick southern accents and with very poor English. Education is not a large part other their lives and, to be honest, most of them don't care about it. However, I see nobody defending the way these people talk saying it should be a language taught in school or embraced by the public. In fact, many just make jokes of it. I don't see how it is different because at one time, an ancestor lived in Africa....

[Quality Is Job 1]

I believe you disagree because you haven't been educated on the subject. If you don't believe what I'm saying about African American English Vernacular, just do an internet search on "African American English dialect." There has been a lot of scientific study, and it goes a lot deeper than your stereotypical notions.

[bauman]

Thicks, thanks for turning this whole Black racism mess at State U into me "being an racist." I presume from your post that you are African-American, but that doesn't mean you have to defend all members of your race no matter what they do or say any more than I would defend actions by a White no matter how wrong they might be. Two Blacks, both apparently well educated, have injected race into this affair in a despicable manner.

By the way, I assume you will not be teaching AAED when you teach English. Good grammar is the same whether spoken by White, Blacks or any other race living in English speaking countries. I believe education is the key to the advancement of any person or group attempting to better themselves but that education must be of a high quality-I would assume from you actions that you agree. No need to call me a racist.

[jjray]

>...or at least very ignorant. What the heck is "talking

>like their still in the 'hood"? Simply put, your suggestion

>that speaking in African-American English Dialect indicates

>that a person is uneducated is racist, ignorant, or both.

>Even the most highly-educated people in the world speak the

>way they're comfortable when they're with their cronies.

>What you folks consider "bad English" is actually a

>structured dialect with rules and conventions of its own,

>just as so-called proper English. I have a degree in

>English and will one day be an English teacher, yet the way

>I talk in some situations is not radically different from

>the way Mrs. Floyd and Mrs. Stewart talk. A lot of you

>"Ebonics-is-bad-English" folks need to be educated

>yourselves.

Thicks, I certainly agree that this is America and people should be free to talk as they please in private conversation. Some people seem to forget that we are reading transcripts of tapes of conversations that the talkers have every reason to believe were private. I also respect your defense of what you describe as the black dialect. However, does one who holds an opposing view point become a "racist"? Might that be a bit strong? Close-minded or prejudiced maybe but "racist" because one criticises use of black dialect and slang? A "racist" for me carries the connotation of one who hates those of a certain race. There is no room for hate.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I'm not calling you a racist, but I wanted to get your attention. I'm sure you don't realize that there are racial undertone and connections in what you're saying about the dialect of many African Americans. Also, for the record, I'm not defending the actions of Mrs. Floyd and Mrs. Stewart; rather, I'm defending their language/dialect. Don't think that their language/dialect is indicative of their character.

As a teacher, I won't be teaching AAEV -- I won't need to, because that's what they already know. But my understanding of AAE will help me teach the wider-dialect English that my students will need to be successful in a climate that will never accept the validity of their natural dialect -- without lowering their self-esteem by making them feel that the way they talk is "bad" or that they're stupid, ignorant, and uneducated because that's the dialect they know (having acquired it from infancy). That's my soapbox.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I intentionally used that word for the shock value, because I wanted to call attention to the racial undertones of the notion that the use of the African American English dialect is indicative of a lack of education. I do not believe Bauman is a racist, but I think it's unfortunate that his views on the subject are shaped by ignorance -- and that's why I continued the thought by saying, "or you're ignorant," which isn't the same as saying "stupid."

For those who are interested in this topic, here are some links for perspective:

- a letter to the editor from a white person with a knowledge and appreciation of AAE.

[link:www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0195152891/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-4231935-7935212#reader-link]Beyond Ebonics: Linguistic Pride and Racial Prejudice] - an Amazon.com peek at a book by linguist John Baugh.

I really would like people to understand where I'm coming from on this issue. It's a very important one. I believe the key to racial reconciliation in this country is open dialogue and understanding between all American. It's not just that the one-time oppressors must try to figure out what needs to be done to make the formerly oppressed feel welcome, but it's also necessary for the formerly oppressed to express exactly what's wrong (what needs to be done) and for one-time oppressors to listen to their concerns. White Americans need to understand that their long-held notion that their language conventions are inherently superior and that the dialect of African Americans indicates they are stupid, lazy, and uneducated is really hurtful[/b, not to mention just plain wrong.

[Tonka]

Good post jjray.

I think we are way too quick to pull the racist card in our society. I agree racist to me means hate. It seems too often it's used for just that, shock value. But, it's because it's used so often for just that or even worse nowadays, it's used sometimes when there is no other defense. If anything, the term being used so often and in the wrong context, does nothing but increase racial divide. As an individual, I can not stand how often it's used. The better term is prejudice, but even that is used too often. Society is conditioned in certain ways that are wrong, but people take offense too quickly in my opinion. You often hear people from the country talk with an accent and often people throw out the term "hick", which is wrong! But, it never seems to get the rise out of those people as others using the racist card. I don't think there is any hate on this board in regards to race. I could be wrong, but I don't think it exists as much today in society as much as people think it does. Also, I have met very few people who aren't prejudice in one way or another.

Besides, aren't we all really one race? The Billiken Race!

Thicks, you said your teams are struggling. That's too bad, who do you coach for?

[Quality Is Job 1]

I didn't mean to "pull the race card," but I was genuinely upset by what was being suggested. I apologize for using the word, "racist," but I don't apologize for how I felt (or feel) or for the essence of what I said.

Tonka, you commended jjray for making a good post; well, have my posts been poor posts just because the subject has been somewhat controversial? Did you overlook or dismiss what I wrote because of the emotions I invoked by using the word, "racist"? Again, I apologize, but I still think my point is valid and important.

Just because the topic is unpleasant doesn't mean it will help the healing if we just ignore it.

[Tonka]

You're right. I'm sorry. You have made and articulated some good points, and points about things I will probably never understand even if I thought I could. I have read about research that you are referring to, and frankly it's just really hard to understand from my point of view. You make a good argument though.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I'm an assistant for Berkeley's JV.

[Tonka]

Thanks. I asked because I am very close friends with the head coach of the Hazelwood East's girls team. You know how the small world thing works.

Hopefully things will improve for your teams!

[jjray]

thicks, I think you made good points in your post. Differences in language can get in the way of people understanding one another and I (speaking for myself) am interested in your perspective on this issue as you surely have put extensive thought into it (and study).

This is something of a digression but the comments attributed to Mrs. Floyd and the asst. AD (i.e., telling Clemons to stay away from white women / the "crackers" in the athletic department), however their manner of articulation are characterized, are offensive. Granted, these people thought they were making private comments, however, it does display a prejudiced attitude. Mrs. Floyd is not a public official so her comments merely serve to damage her husband. The Asst. AD, however, should have some serious explaining to do ... and publicly.