aj_arete Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 if I thought JUCO curriculum was challenging. I know it's not. Call me naive, but I find it pausible that Ricky Clemons could have passed those correspondences courses without cheating. I don't recall the article from the Post, but it's not like those were hard courses. No one is disputing that the standards of Southern Idaho are extremely low and that Ricky took some easy classes, but NO ONE knows whether Ricky did or didn't cheat with those 24 hours. That is, until the NCAA or Mizzou indicates otherwise. I'll wait for their ruling before jumping to conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 i know of only two other people with the kind of of short term astounding academic success that ricky clemons had: chris massey at memphis last fall, and billy madison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj_arete Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 please tell me about him. As for Massey, I believe he earned an astounding amount of credits at the University of Memphis. I consider that a BIG DIFFERENCE from Ricky Clemons. For one, Clemons didn't complete those 24 hours AT MIZZOU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 massey earned 24 credits last fall semester at memphis to regain his eligibility. billy madison was a joke. that is the movie adam sadler made where he (billy madison) had to successfully repeat all 12 grades in like 2 months or else his dad was going to turn the company over to a weasel in the company instead of billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 i dont believe massey either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 If I were to make it my mission to get 24 credits in 6 weeks, I bet I could do it- and you know what? I'm sure you'd still have something to whine about regarding Mizzou. You guys make more blanket statements regarding not only mizzou athletics, but its fans, students, and players than any normal person would ever accept blindly. I've said it before, and I'll say it again- Many of you could use a course from Steve regarding Mizzou. He is definitely one of the classiest, and while he is clearly a slu fan through and through, he (get this) LISTENS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 The truth of the matter is that today through on-line classes, you can earn a substantial # of credits in a short period of time. Those of you who are having trouble understanding this are simply trying to place an old paridgm on today's reality. Today, you can earn your high school diploma or even a college degree without ever sitting through a single class period as most of us had to do. I am not defending it just pointing out how it works today. MUfan is correct, if you really wanted to earn 24 credits in a few short weeks you could certainly do it. The other beauty of the whole thing is that if you fail an on-line class or do not finish it you simply do not have to even reveal that you took the class and just find another course to fill in. I do think the NCAA will have to eventually deal with this new technology and figure out how it will fit in their requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonwich Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 ...and it's looking like the Mizzou participants on this board went there. NOWHERE have I said that correspondence courses themselves are or should be inapplicable to a degree at Mizzou, Wash. U. or SLU. WHAT I HAVE SAID is that earning 24 hours in a single summer is clear, de facto and irrefutable evidence of academic fraud. Therefore Mizzou clearly condones academic fraud by accepting ANY hours from a transcript that shows 24 hours earned in a summer. AS FOR THE NCAA, the "real" lawyers at Mizzou (Quin has a law degree, no) have a perfect case for them -- Mizzou didn't accept ALL of Ricky's credits, so the 24-hours argument is moot in the context of an NCAA investigation. Mizzou, however, has illustrated that it has no valid standards for admission of transfer hours. Come to think of it, this also probably means that the proponents of said fraud earned those law degrees in a little under a year, since Mizzou clearly condones earning credit hours at four times the rate an accredited, respectable university would allow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 >Come to think of it, this also probably means that the >proponents of said fraud earned those law degrees in a >little under a year, since Mizzou clearly condones earning >credit hours at four times the rate an accredited, >respectable university would allow. I'm confused- We had this discussion and it was discovered that Mizzou is not alone in accepting correspondence credits. And why shouldn't they accept them in however much quantity they come in? Why wouldn't any university? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 If you found me standing over a dead body with the murder weapon in hand, would you think I did it? What if I claimed I didn't but someone called me over and asked me to hold the knife while he ran and got help, well I believed that is what he was going to do ... so I took the knife and in the meantime I got some blood on my clothes and hands because I bent down to insure they were dead. Then the cops showed up and the person that gave me the knife never returned. Now they want to convict me ... it's not fair ... I swear my story is true. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlumniFan Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 As someone who finished college in 3 years, with a double major, while working 30 plus hours a week, and as someone who has taught as an adjunct professor in condensed courses for nine years I feel that I have insight on this issue. I, too, took summer classes, and despite having a relatively high GPA (high school, college, grad school) I found just TWO legitimate college courses to be a challenge. I don't know precisely what courses Mr. Clemons participated in, but given his prior academic standing and accomplishments, it should be abundantly clear to any rational human being, regardless of their organizational affiliations, that it would not be possible for this individual to successfully complete 24 hours of coursework over a summer unless the courses were inappropriately easy (the point is to learn) or unless he received assistance that most educators would deem inappropriate. For any University to have put a student in that position is, in my opinion, unfair to the student and unethical. The point of going to school is to learn. Putting a student in a position where he is taking 24 hours in a summer clearly cannot be done with the intent of having that student learn anything. There are academic and physiological studies done regarding retention of material that would strongly and empirically refute any assertion that Mr. Clemons was able to meaningfully retain any of the information covered in his classes, especially given what we know about his published academic problems. The bottom line is that the NCAA has their own definitions and I am sure the administration at the University of Missouri did their homework before accepting these hours, but the plight of the student remains and what is clear is that the University of Missouri used Ricky Clemons, albeit legally, for their own devices with little regard for his academic welfare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 That was quite possibly the most articulate, well thought out post on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I know it's not the point ... but it is about as believable as anyone ... especially someone with RC's background passes 24 hours in a summer session. I congratulate you on your loyalty to your team ... but to even suggest that you believe it could be correct makes you look silly. Will they get away with it ... now that is another question ... but please take the ... it may have happened ideas somewhere else. If this was the Bills ... I would be ashamed and would not try to defend it ... regardless of what the NCAA says. Not all the guilty are punished. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I'm not trying to defend any wrongdoing, you're just making that up. I'm saying I live in a system of "innocent until proven guilty." If allegations of fraud or any other violation are found true, I disagree with them entirely, and I would be embarassed. It's not a matter of me blindly defending my team, it's just that no one on here knows for sure whether wrongdoing happened, and you guys just seem to want it so badly that you're ignoring reason. I think Ricky Clemons is a stain on the team for what has been proven (the domestic assault) and as such, he was kicked off the team. No one thinks that Ricky Clemons did the right thing, or was defensible in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicoloj Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 is this guy really this educated, or did he learn these big words through the mail..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 24 credit hours in 1 summer session from someone without a HS diploma ... what exactly would you like to investigate. I am not a Mizzou hater ... not a fan either ... I am a big 12 fan and would rather see Mizzou do well. With that said ... I would like to see them come clean with everything and then move on. Seriously ... to try and say you believe he could have passed those classes seems rather outrageous and ridiculous. Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonwich Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Up above, you agreed with AlumniFan, who pointed out "...it should be abundantly clear to any rational human being, regardless of their organizational affiliations, that it would not be possible for this individual to successfully complete 24 hours of coursework over a summer unless the courses were inappropriately easy (the point is to learn) or unless he received assistance that most educators would deem inappropriate. For any University to have put a student in that position is, in my opinion, unfair to the student and unethical." Yet then you ask: "And why shouldn't they accept them in however much quantity they come in?" The ONLY people who have in any way condoned the 24-hour issue are Mizzou fans. Your ethics are a fitting testament to your alma mater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 i swore i wouldnt respond to anymore of your manical babble, but since you are now throwing the old "bill of rights" defense out there, let me remind you that the innocent until proven guilty and such stuff are to protect rights, not necessarily privledges. ricky clemons getting a substantial government subsidy to attend college is not a constitutional right, it is a priviledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 And the only one who HASN'T is SLU fans. The rest of the country cares precious little, which seems to bother the whole lot of you. I had heard that many of you were obsessed with Mizzou, but I kind of took it with a grain of salt (those allegations fly back and forth between tiger fans and jayhawk fans all the time), but now I see it really does bug the crap out of you that Mizzou is more succesful, and many of you can't accept that. If the NCAA says there was no academic fraud, then that's good enough for me (and the rest of the country, unfortunately for bills fans). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 But we're not only discussing Ricky Clemons' privelidge to attend a public University, we're discussing allegations against that university. Serious allegations, which are being investigated- Yes, "innocent until proven guilty" does apply here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 The rest of the country cares precious little? Since you are getting on us "Bills fans" for speculating about what happened at Mizzou, you probably can't make that statement. I'm sure you can't possibly vouch for the rest of the country. In my experience though, people all over the country do care. College Basketball fans are unique fans and are more educated on teams outside of their city and conference than you thnk. I learned that this summer in NY. More people question Mizzou than you think. I'm not sure you have been reading this board since before December 4th, but if you have you would know that many Mizzou fans are concerned with SLU just as much as you say we are with Mizzou, if not more. If you read the Tigerboard as well you would also know that. The reason SLU fans get on Mizzou is for different reason than Mizzou fans get on SLU and you would know that if you have been an avid reader to this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFAN2000 Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I attend Mizzou, and can say emphatically that I have never heard SLU mentioned in any sort of discussion regarding athletics besides hearing a friend say he wanted to go see Arizona play. I do read tigerboard, and the precious little posts regarding SLU are far outweighed by your front page right now. I believe you gentlemen were discussing honoring mizzou on the back of your shirt? Save it for someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonwich Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 A Mizzou fan engages in a discussion of Mizzou's questionable (and believe me, people ACROSS the country have called it questionable) behavior on a SLU board and reaches the conclusion that no one else aside from SLU fans believes (or cares) that a major research institution has condoned a blatant breach of academic ethics. Just a thought, here, but you might want to discuss this with any number of the academic staff members at Mizzou. (I'd avoid the ones to whom I'm related, since my association with SLU might have tainted their judgment.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Okay, I am laughing. You, YOURSELF, came on this SLU Board with a Mizzou handle and started talking about the Billikens. Hilarious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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