My, aren’t we feisty!

[Billiken Law]

Here's my rationale. Accept it if you want:

The Big East always has been considered a premier, if not the premier hoops conference in America. The last 2 national champs have come from there. Plus, since the McGuire days MU has been a big draw when they play on the East Coast and always drew a lot of students from the East Coast, particularly NY and Mass. Of course, if DePaul and ND, MU's two biggest rivals in terms of history, were not going along as well I might be questioning the move, however, it would have been preferable to stay in CUSA than join the Horizon. The Big East is also a BCS conference and has a permenant seat on the NCAA governing board. The Horizon is a one-bid conference with no pull with the NCAA. Not an option.

As for SLU, I don't see the A-10 as being that much higher level than the MVC. Folks here constantly run down the MVC but it is in reality a very solid conference, and it's profile could increase more if Western Kentucky joins, as rumored. Creighton and SIU are and will remain strong teams, ISU, WSU and SMS are solid and getting better, Northern Iowa went to the NCAA last year and even Drake (with Dr. Tom Davis) and Bradley are showing flashes of potential. The conference tourney is held in a neutral site and draws very well, where as the A-10 tourney used to be played in an empty Philly Spectrum before they moved it to on-campus at Dayton. Yes, the upper level of the A-10 is stronger overall (Xavier, Dayton, Temple, St. Joe's - did you see the game last night, yikes!) despite their struggles early this year but overall, when you take into account the bottom of the conference (Fordham, Duquense, LaSalle) I don't see it being that much better than the MVC. Plus, the MVC is stronger is other sports, like soccer (SLU's bread and butter). Financially I think the MVC would have been a better option and the competitive difference is negligible. Just my opinion.

[Billiken Law]

how about taking the thousands spent on statues and redirecting it to athletic department funding, recruiting budget, coaches salaries, etc? Or better, reducing tuition....

[billiken_roy]

if you would have been at slu in the late 70's and early 80's when i was, you would appreciate everything father biondi has done to make saint louis university one of the most beautiful campuses in the world. at least compared to the joke of a campus i attended it seems that way to me. i dont want to take anything away from the beautiful environment that has been created. in fact, do more, buy more.

[billiken_roy]

after the following sentence by mojo law " I don't see the A-10 as being that much higher level than the MVC."

i couldnt even finish reading the rest of the post. it is obvious you are clueless to the vast differences in the conferences. sure creighton and siu have represented well, but it drops off hard and fast after that. go look at the recent rpi conference rankings and ncaa money and if you dont see a vast difference you are blind.

the a-10 will likely take the place of cusa as the 7th best overall conference. wake me when the mvc makes it to the top 10.

as i said before, thicks nailed you to the wall. the rational thinking should be the same. the warriors took the money and ran instead of "owning" the horizon. the billikens did the same.

[Billiken Rich]

Good point Roy. I also liked the soccer is SLU's bread and butter line. Obviously Maquette Law's diseased brain is having trouble with the notion of "bread and butter." In common usage it refers to that which brings in money. Our bread and butter is now and alway will be basketball. Go home Mojo.

[kwyjibo]

I won't argue the merits of SLU's decision to go to the A-10 because it is such a no-brainer in terms basketball competitiveness and resource potential (the MVC has had a lot of recent success at the top that we should all acknowledge and praise but that does not mean conference success).

As to your statement about the Big East being the "premier conference in America (sic)", I do not even think the biggest BC homers I know would say something so patently and objectively absurd. In fact, I am not sure a marketing person for the Big East would be so foolish (they would emphasize as you did the number of champions however).

As far as conference RPI the Big East generally rotates between 4th and 6th over the last dozen years with an occasional breakout to 3rd. I do not believe the word "premier (sic)" means usually around 4th.

Actually, I have been making a much more factually based case to the reasonable Big East and Marquette fans I know (I root for Marquette myself usually) that the Big East will become a better conference with the addition of Marquette, Cincy, Louisville, etc. There are no guarantees because DePaul may regress and South Florida is in shambles. The A-10 will be become a better conference with the addition of SLU and Charlotte. Its the mighty drop of C-USA and the slight decline of the ACC that will balance those gains (I think Mtn West gets a tad better as well).

For those that actually care about facts, here are the RPI conference ranks going back to 93-94 (PLEASE NOTE that number "1" NEVER appears):

.......... Big East A10

93-94 --- 6 ----- 7

94-95 --- 5 ----- 9

95-96 --- 6 ----- 8

96-97 --- 5 ----- 7

97-98 --- 4 ----- 7

98-99 --- 5 ----- 10

99-00 --- 4 ----- 9

00-01 --- 4 ----- 9

01-02 --- 4 ----- 9

02-03 --- 4 ----- 9

03-04 ---3 ----- 8

[Box and Won]

I think the man has a pretty valid point when it comes to the statues. The only statue that I really like is the Billiken statue in front of West Pine Gym.

[Billiken Rich]

I kind of like the fake student statues. Prior to this year I was thinking they should be moved to the Savvis center to fill the student section for the games......

[Billiken Law]

The Billiken statues (near the gym and the one near the soccer field) are very cool. I also like the Ignatius Loyola statue (every Jesuit Institution should have one). And I don't deny that we have a very beautiful campus now, particularly compared to the 70's and 80's. However, it would be just as beautiful with the present landscaping (particularly the grotto between West Pine and Cook Hall) without some of the statues that must cost at least 10K each. Money that could have been better spent elsewhere. Imagine what more the hoops staff could do with an addition 10K for recruiting.....

[billiken_roy]

if you are trying to influence old money donors and recruit east coast academic recruits from wealthy families, you have to play the role. there is a reason father biondi plays it the way he does. and while his ego may play part of the role, i suspect there is more to it than just that. the success that father biondi has had on the university cannot be denied and if anyone deserved a blank check for their role todate, it is father biondi.

when the enrollment falls and the endowment falls from lack of submissions (not bad stock deals) then let's talk about father biondi's tastes and spending habits.

[aj_arete]

just because there are more major markets and potential for more TV money. Financially, it's a no-brainer to go to the A-10. However looking at Kwyjibo's numbers, I am surprised that the A-10 was only ranked 8th. That's not much better than the 10th or 11th rating that the MVC annually gets.

I see the A-10 dropping dramatically this year because of the huge losses suffered by St. Joseph's. Temple's program is quickly become as irrelevant as Penn State football. Xavier is always solid and Dayton has a talented young coach, but these teams aren't dramatically better than Creighton and SIUC.

BLaw makes a decent point, if you're just taking into account the basketball quality between the A-10 and MVC.

[billiken_roy]

aj, last year someone posted a link to the NCAA tourney money shares per conference over the last few years. the a-10 is/was garnering a far far greater share of the pot.

as to rpi by conference, the a-10 hasnt been lower than 9th and with cusa imploding, will ****** the spot in the standings that cusa normally held in years past. i assume 7th or 8th annually. the mvc has yet to be a top 10 conference per rpi. even in their glorious 3 bid seasons, they only got as high as 11th overall. and typically are lower than that.

there is no comparison. now if the rumors are true that the a-10 is encouraging a couple of the bottom feeding schools to leave as well, the a-10 only cements themselves even firmer as a top conference.

[kwyjibo]

The MVC is structurally well below the A-10 even if you think the rankings are not that far apart (the MVC averages closer to the 12th ranking and last year was a good year and they only were 11th). 8-9 may be numerically close to 11-12 but in terms of multiple NCAA bids there is a big difference.

Most importantly, the MVC has established itself as an upstart but historically they have gotten screwed by the NCAA with bids. The Atlantic-10 can be overlooked as well somewhat but generally their strength enables them to get deserved teams in (Richmond got in last year in a position where a MVC team does not get it).

You are right in the media comments which will always hurt the MVC in national TV deals. These translate into hard resource limits for MVC schools that most A-10 teams do not have. If they did everything right, SLU could have made the MVC work for them but they would have been an odd duck school/mission-wise. They are an odd duck geographically (they will play every year at their closest rival-- Rhode Island!!) in the A-10 but everything else basketball-wise is better. As for the minor sports, maybe SLU can start lacrosse teams to compete at the highest levels.

[Billiken Law]

now if the rumors are true that the

>a-10 is encouraging a couple of the bottom feeding schools

>to leave as well, the a-10 only cements themselves even

>firmer as a top conference.

If that happens then it helps the A-10 significantly. However, there is no precedent for booting full members from a conference due to not being competitve. I know the Big East kicked out Temple football but they were not full members. Besides, whom do you kick out? Duquense, Fordham, LaSalle and St. Bonaventure? 2 of those are charter members of the A-10 and I'd imagine you'd have to have nearly a unanimous vote to do so.

And I am not saying I do not support the move to the A-10 - this isn't politics where you support one thing and oppose the alternative.

[billiken_roy]

i am not an expert on a-10 gossip yet, but the few a-10 message boards i have occasionally visited, the talk was that fordham would love to drop down to say a patriot type level and would leave on their own accord if the opening was there. the other school i have heard was ready to leave was duschene (sp? is there a worse speller on the internet than me?)

[aj_arete]

and I'll agree that the A-10 improves if they can get rid of some of weaker teams. I'm still not as enthusiastic as others about this move. Yes, we're in a lot of major markets, but every team in that major market plays second fiddle to a more established team. That means TV dollars may not be as great as you think in the near future.

Mizzou > SLU

Cincy > Xavier

Pittsburgh > Duquesne

Temple and St. Joseph's water down the Philly market

Please note I'm talking about media and TV exposure in those comparison. There could be years where both SLU and Xavier could be superior to Cincy on the court, but that has never translated to more local attention.

By the way, I wish we could trade positions with Marquette. They are in the far more enviable position.

[MU88]

How would SLU be an odd duck in the Valley? While Creighton is the only Catholic school, Creighton, Drake, Evansville, and Bradley have similar environments and missions as SLU.

Further, you guys are crazy if you think the A-10 is far superior to the Valley or that revenue is even a factor. Yes, the A-10 usually has a one team that boosts their RPI (UMass, Temple and St. Joe's), but the depths of LaSalle, Duquense and now, St. Bonnies is lower than anything even Drake imagined. As for revenue, in 2000, the A-10 did make around $2 million in tv revenue, but split 14 ways, that amounts to almost nothing and certainly not enough to justify the travel expense associated with joining the conference. Don't forget, the A-10 draws very, very poorly. Duquense, at 4032, outdrew LaSalle, GW, UMass, St. Joe's, and Fordham. I believe that Dayton was the only school in the A-10 to average over 10,000 fans and X was the only other school over 6000. The Valley averaged over 1400 fans more per game.

Finally, the Valley is much better than most of you people believe. This isn't a case of choosing between a great conference, say the BE, and a poor conference, the Horizon. Joining the A-10 was a bad decision. Lets see if you don't agree in 5 years.

[Billiken Rich]

Don't worry, we'll be seeing you within 5 years when the bigeast explodes. Only a damn fool would choose the MVC over the A10. Fr Biondi is many things but not a damned fool.

[slufanskip]

The Big East has always been considered a premier, if not the premier hoops conference in America ... a top conference, yes ... but I can't imagine anyone without a vested interest in the Big East calling it the premier hoops conference in America

BLaw ... I think you would get a lot more respect if you just said ... you are right guys, writing what I did on the MU site was a crappy thing to do ... I apologize. That would be much better than the BS you wrote after you were caught claiming it was all in jest.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[billiken_roy]

mu88 said, " you guys are crazy if you think the A-10 is far superior to the Valley or that revenue is even a factor. Yes, the A-10 usually has a one team that boosts their RPI (UMass, Temple and St. Joe's), but the depths of LaSalle, Duquense and now, St. Bonnies is lower than anything even Drake imagined."

the conference rpi takes the whole conference into consideration. the mvc is far more bottom weighted than the a-10 can even imagine. both evansville and indiana state finished below all the a-10 teams in the final 2004 rpi ratings. over half of the mvc finished lower than 150. 7 of the a-10 teams finished better than 150 and if you add slu and charlotte, that makes 9 and 5 below.

mu88 said,"As for revenue, in 2000, the A-10 did make around $2 million in tv revenue, but split 14 ways, that amounts to almost nothing and certainly not enough to justify the travel expense associated with joining the conference."

again you dont take into consideration that slu and charlotte will add to the rpi of the a-10 and raise the shares in all likelihood. since cusa is going to become a one bid conference, that will free up 3 more bids. at least one of those will likely follow the a-10 since their conference will move up to 7th overall. thus the ncaa take will be even higher. strange how you fail to mention when detailing the tourney money for the a-10 how the mvc's money is even less.

mu88 said, "Don't forget, the A-10 draws very, very poorly. Duquense, at 4032, outdrew LaSalle, GW, UMass, St. Joe's, and Fordham. I believe that Dayton was the only school in the A-10 to average over 10,000 fans and X was the only other school over 6000. The Valley averaged over 1400 fans more per game."

i didnt relize that the colleges split the gate with the visiting teams.

mu88 said, "Finally, the Valley is much better than most of you people believe. This isn't a case of choosing between a great conference, say the BE, and a poor conference, the Horizon. Joining the A-10 was a bad decision."

you still havent given us one good reason other than i guess the travel costs will be higher. it is probably worth the extra costs to not have to have our student athletes spend numerous nites in cedar rapids, wichita, terre haute, evansville, peoria, bloomington, and carbondale.

mu88 said, "Lets see if you don't agree in 5 years." dont hold your breath. in five years, i expect to see the billikens be one of the dominating teams in the a-10 which will by then be a top 5 conference due to the big east implosion and marquette and depaul begging us, xavier and dayton to help them out of their new dilemna of a conference with no teams nearby but themselves.

[billiken_roy]

mu, just curious, with only notre dame for basketball and depaul, marquette really is as geographically challenged by the big east than slu is, in fact with more teams in the big east, and a crazy schedule to follow, it might end up being worse. so why again is our travel expenses bad but marquette's is ok?

you guys should really rethink that horizon option.

[cujaysfan]

nfm

[MU88]

Easy answer. The Big East hoops conference has generated around $20 million per year for its members, without NCAA tourney revenue. The Horizon generates less than $1 million. If the payouts of each conference were close, say within $2 or $3 million per year, and the quality of the league was close, than I think MU would have to seriously consider joining the Horizon. As it stands, the conferences are not close. The A-10 and the Valley are close. In fact, the Valley may be better this year.

>mu, just curious, with only notre dame for basketball and

>depaul, marquette really is as geographically challenged by

>the big east than slu is, in fact with more teams in the big

>east, and a crazy schedule to follow, it might end up being

>worse. so why again is our travel expenses bad but

>marquette's is ok?

>

>you guys should really rethink that horizon option.

[slufanskip]

If 8th and 11 are almost the same ... then so are 8th and 5th. Try to convince a school in the 5th ranked conference they should move to the 8th ranked ... because they are almost the same.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[courtside]

I think people are over analyzing this thing way too much.

SLU NEEDS,....WANTS more national exposure. SLU does not want to be a regional school anymore. SLU will NEVER EVER become a "national" school in the MVC.

SLU does not want to be compared to small towns throughout the midwest. Fr. Biondi even said that his mission is to make SLU the number one academic jesuit school in the country. Now, there is a long way to go in both of these things. But they will never be achieved in the Valley.

SLU at the very least is exposing itself to media markets in Philly, NYC, etc...they didn't have a lot of options.

Marquette? Obviously most SLU fans would prefer to be in that Big East mix. Any conference with more than 12 teams is a problem.

No disrespect to the MVC, a good well run conference.

I for one understand the university's thoughts, and want to be more of a national school. Now people will chime and nit pick over national compared to what they are now...but I think everyone understands the point.

SLU fans should lose the chip on shoulder of being considered second tier. SLU has not had the tradition in hoops...doesn't mean that can't change. SLU has not had the commitment to having a top 25 hoops team....I am hoping that will change.