billiken_roy Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Koufax did retire at a relatively early age but his last season he won 27 games pitched 323 innings over 41 games with 27 complete games. Hardly tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Koufax did retire at a relatively early age but his last season he won 27 games pitched 323 innings over 41 games with 27 complete games. Hardly tired. Koufax retired because of Arm problems. How about Dean Chance who won a Cy Young in the early 60's but retired early due to arm problems. Just 2 quick ones off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more who just became less effective due to arm problems as their careers progressed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Good points roy and skip. Is it me or is there a whole lot of guys getting hit at a younger age with Tommy John surgeries? That procedure wasn't around for Chance and Koufax and I admit I don't know their full stories but just wondering. Gibson was a freak. So too was Seaver and Ryan, Steve Carlton won 27 games on the 72 Phillies. They won 54 games total that year (I think). The Phils will always be indebted to the Cards for that gift. Back then too when a guy was done starting, he went to the bullpen. Jim Kaat. Dennis Eckersly. Wilbur Wood. Lots of guys did that. The reliever wasn't the specialty guy he is today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB73 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Todays pitchers are babies. I get sick and tired of hearing about tired arms over use, pitch counts etc. Pitchers today are significantly bigger and stronger than 30-40 years ago, most all lift weights and go through other strength programs, stuff creatine in their face, and many use HGH... and then of course throw harder than ever. Good? For many, yes, but it often backfires because the extra bulk/muscle, and strength puts too much pressure on elbows, joints, shoulders, etcetera, and and injury occurs. It is a risk for starters to consistently go > 100 pitches or they are on the DL. To boot, since their pay has increased 10,000% (whatever) since Gibby* and Sandy pitched, their agents realize it is wise to play the stats game and make sure they do not overextend themselves "for the team". (* I played 18 holes with Gibby, same cart, about 10 years ago, he was a good guy, but do NOT ask him about pitching inside, every assh*le he meets, that is the first thing they bring up) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorB Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Wow, what stats!! had to sign in to say that. Koufax was one of my all-time favorites, nearly unhittable when he had that curve ball working. Yes, major changes in the "culture" of pitching these days: I would say, actually, most or all sports. I remember how much I loved reading Instant Replay back in the day -- many of those Packer heroes had off season jobs!! Think of that today -- having Janoris Jenkins as an insurance agent; or having Greg Robinson sell you a car on a car lot!! It was very different... I'm also wondering how a kid like Jake Arrietta will hold up over the next 5 years. I have become very skeptical about the long-term projections of the new, hot pitching commodities. Same could be said for Wacha and Martinez, of course. Will they hold up? and stay dominant?? It's harder to do these days; in the old days 300 wins was a sign of future Hall of Famer; but that is almost a thing of the past and the new bar seems to be set at 200 wins. Hardly any--possibly NONE--of today's pitchers will hang around for 300 wins, I can tell you that... 27 complete games in one season -- give me a break! Those are career numbers nowadays. Koufax did retire at a relatively early age but his last season he won 27 games pitched 323 innings over 41 games with 27 complete games. Hardly tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMM28 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Pitchers today are significantly bigger and stronger than 30-40 years ago, most all lift weights and go through other strength programs, stuff creatine in their face, and many use HGH... and then of course throw harder than ever. Good? For many, yes, but it often backfires because the extra bulk/muscle, and strength puts too much pressure on elbows, joints, shoulders, etcetera, and and injury occurs. It is a risk for starters to consistently go > 100 pitches or they are on the DL. To boot, since their pay has increased 10,000% (whatever) since Gibby* and Sandy pitched, their agents realize it is wise to play the stats game and make sure they do not overextend themselves "for the team". (* I played 18 holes with Gibby, same cart, about 10 years ago, he was a good guy, but do NOT ask him about pitching inside, every assh*le he meets, that is the first thing they bring up) I listened to a good interview with Leo Mazzone earlier this year. His hypothesis is that pitchers are chasing after max velocity as opposed to understanding how to vary their speeds. During his Braves tenure, he focused on command and throwing at 80% when you could. Of course that is easier to accomplish when you have a staff headlined by one of the greatest control pitchers of all time in Maddux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taj79 Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Jamie Moyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbj14 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Arrieta should be good over the next 5 years. Closest comparable in terms of mileage and breakout is Max Scherzer who is doing just fine for himself. I think the more intriguing pitcher on the Cubs is Lester. I see a breakdown coming mid contract for him that could be quite expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I don't know if I could find it because it was about a year ago, but I read a very good article about the injuries today that lays a lot of the blame on all the pitching kids do at such an early age. 30 -50 years ago a 10 year old kid played 20 +/- games a year if that during baseball season. When it was over they moved onto basketball or football. Today's top 10-12 year olds play and train all year long. They focus in on "their" sport at a very young age. I had 2 girls in 6th grade decide not to play basketball because they made a select soccer team and their coach told them they couldn't play basketball as they had to focus on training for soccer and basketball would take away from that. These are 6th grade girls. I don't know how good they are at soccer but I doubt they are on a very top team or are in the top 25 or so of their age group in the area. The article's moral was kids pitch so much more at a younger age that their arms are half way gone before they even reach the pro's if they even do at all. If you look at the progression of youth sports it kind of lines up with pitchers getting hurt earlier and earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwyjibo Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I don't know if I could find it because it was about a year ago, but I read a very good article about the injuries today that lays a lot of the blame on all the pitching kids do at such an early age. 30 -50 years ago a 10 year old kid played 20 +/- games a year if that during baseball season. When it was over they moved onto basketball or football. Today's top 10-12 year olds play and train all year long. They focus in on "their" sport at a very young age. I had 2 girls in 6th grade decide not to play basketball because they made a select soccer team and their coach told them they couldn't play basketball as they had to focus on training for soccer and basketball would take away from that. These are 6th grade girls. I don't know how good they are at soccer but I doubt they are on a very top team or are in the top 25 or so of their age group in the area. The article's moral was kids pitch so much more at a younger age that their arms are half way gone before they even reach the pro's if they even do at all. If you look at the progression of youth sports it kind of lines up with pitchers getting hurt earlier and earlier. The interesting thing is that there is absolutely no evidence (and some contrary) that specializing at a young age makes you better at that sport. It is just people assuming it must be better. My experience is that while it may work out to specialize early, it appears to be swamped by the "Marinovich factor"--that is, kids who get worn out/burned out/plateaued in their sport of choice. (Marinovich plateaued pretty high and burned out late but the point is still there--I have seen it in a few kids where I have seen their development over time). When to specialize is debated and probably different for different sports (I would say soccer can be around 13 but more college football coaches are saying they think it is better for their sport for the athlete to play other sports in high school). Even youth soccer leaders know it is problem: http://www.usyouthsoccer.org/are_kids_specializing_in_sports_too_early/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 The interesting thing is that there is absolutely no evidence (and some contrary) that specializing at a young age makes you better at that sport. It is just people assuming it must be better. My experience is that while it may work out to specialize early, it appears to be swamped by the "Marinovich factor"--that is, kids who get worn out/burned out/plateaued in their sport of choice. (Marinovich plateaued pretty high and burned out late but the point is still there--I have seen it in a few kids where I have seen their development over time). When to specialize is debated and probably different for different sports (I would say soccer can be around 13 but more college football coaches are saying they think it is better for their sport for the athlete to play other sports in high school). Even youth soccer leaders know it is problem: http://www.usyouthsoccer.org/are_kids_specializing_in_sports_too_early/ I'd prefer them to play as many sports as possible. I encourage our girls to play other sports. I even make our off season work outs voluntary so that they don't feel pressured to miss time with their sport that is in season. I'm not sure when the right time to specialize is but I absolutely don't think it's before High School and am not sure even then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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