Recruiting In St. Louis

[GoBills]

who were the top targets?

tends to happen when top players are suspended on a mid-major team.

speak of the devil. please, let's have some context. we're not duke, unc, etc. We're like the other 99% of college D-1 teams. When you lose 2-4 of your top players/talent, you're going to suffer big time.

please, this is so intentionally skewed that it's ridiculous. This is SLU. RM has had no problems in recruiting other than he has recruited over SLU's head for a couple of big fish and hasn't landed them. Also, we don't have 9 schollie players by choice. It's not like we couldn't get other players to fill the scholllies. Are you really vtime? Because you are starting to sound as stupid as he did.

RM is not perfect, far from it. Your opinion of his tenure though is quite laughable.

Well said. Good perspective on recruiting. If Willie and Kwamain were playing, I don't think anybody would be complaining about the recruiting.

[NH]

GoBills, keep in mind when trying to have a debate with this kid, that he's only about 15 years old. Somebody pointed that out to me one time when I was trying to talk some sense into him. In other words, he has a lot to learn, not only about basketball, but also about how to have a decent debate. He probably hasn't even taken a logic class yet. You picked apart his flawed logic regarding RM's recruiting. He comes across as the worst kind of know it all... a know it all who actually knows quite little. Last year, when we were waiting for Cody to become eligible, myself and others said that Cody would immediately be the second best big on the team and would start before the end of the season. Of course that is how it played out, but he jumped on our case for having that opinion. It's great to have a young Billiken fan with a lot of passion, but just know who you are dealing with right now and not it take him so seriously. When he called you dumb and ignorant, I believe he was simply projecting.

I don't think I called anyone dumb and ignorant, and if I did I shouldn't have. I may have called statements dumb and ignorant, which they were.

My age is no excuse. If my logic is flawed, call me out on it. But please don't act like I'm some baby you have to be careful around; I can handle myself alright. I'm smart enough and I care about the billikens enough to be willing to accept when I am wrong. That said, just because I'm younger then you doesn't mean I'm going to be wrong. Sorry if I come across as the "worst kind of know it all" but honestly how I come off across on billikens.com is not THAT high up on my priorities.

I don't buy into the idea that because you are older you will automatically have some sage experience that allows you to be right. You might know more than me, but to say "I have a lot to learn"" and "you were trying to talk some sense into me" makes it come across like some grandpa talking to a first-grader. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But I'm two years younger than the players on our team, who we spend hours talking about. And since I am the worst kind of know it all, I can say I might be a little more able to handle myself in debate than the average kid my age. Unleash the dogs if that's what it takes.

RM, like most coaches, has had problems recruiting. I'm sure he would admit it.

[NH]

Well said. Good perspective on recruiting. If Willie and Kwamain were playing, I don't think anybody would be complaining about the recruiting.

BUT THEY AREN"T!

Think about it this way, You look at a wall with some nice wallpaper or a good paint job, it looks like a nice wall. (Yes I realize this metaphor is probably crap, I couldn't think of the right one, if anyone does afterwards feel free to chip in). Then the wall loses that outer pretty covering. It still looks good, but there is a stain or two, maybe some cracks. Just because you couldn't see the cracks were there, doesn't mean they weren't there. And just because there are cracks, doesn't mean the wall completely sucks. But its dumb to say, 'if KM and WR were here we would have no problem' but there absence has exposed possible problems on our team. Not Gaping holes, but more like some cracks along what looked like a pretty spotless (for SLU) team.

[GoBills]

I don't think I called anyone dumb and ignorant, and if I did I shouldn't have. I may have called statements dumb and ignorant, which they were.

My age is no excuse. If my logic is flawed, call me out on it. But please don't act like I'm some baby you have to be careful around; I can handle myself alright. I'm smart enough and I care about the billikens enough to be willing to accept when I am wrong. That said, just because I'm younger then you doesn't mean I'm going to be wrong. Sorry if I come across as the "worst kind of know it all" but honestly how I come off across on billikens.com is not THAT high up on my priorities.

I don't buy into the idea that because you are older you will automatically have some sage experience that allows you to be right. You might know more than me, but to say "I have a lot to learn"" and "you were trying to talk some sense into me" makes it come across like some grandpa talking to a first-grader. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But I'm two years younger than the players on our team, who we spend hours talking about. And since I am the worst kind of know it all, I can say I might be a little more able to handle myself in debate than the average kid my age. Unleash the dogs if that's what it takes.

RM, like most coaches, has had problems recruiting. I'm sure he would admit it.

I have been following Billiken basketball for more than 40 years. I can tell you that the this roster that Majerus had assembled was the deepest and most talented that I have seen during my time as a Bills fan. Now granted, we certainly are not talking about a history like Duke or North Carolina, but Majerus is clearly the best SLU recruiter in at least four decades. And before you attempt to put words in my mouth again, I never suggested it was perfect. He recruited Willie and Kwamain, two players poised to be all-conference. He got Cassity even after Michigan offered him. He got Cody away from Wake Forest and Loe away from Pitt and Georgia Tech. He got early commitments from Evans and McCall before bigger programs could swoop in. He landed an oustanding young point guard in Jett. You think so highly of Majerus's recruiting that you even claim that this year's team likely would be hanging around the Top 25. Let me tell you something, that has not happened very often in SLU history. So when you call my comments about the recruiting from Majerus dumb or ignorant, you are way off base, especially when you believe he had put together a Top 25 roster! I am not sure why you can't see the flaw in your reasoning, but hopefully someday you will.

[For-DaLove]

BUT THEY AREN"T!

Think about it this way, You look at a wall with some nice wallpaper or a good paint job, it looks like a nice wall. (Yes I realize this metaphor is probably crap, I couldn't think of the right one, if anyone does afterwards feel free to chip in). Then the wall loses that outer pretty covering. It still looks good, but there is a stain or two, maybe some cracks. Just because you couldn't see the cracks were there, doesn't mean they weren't there. And just because there are cracks, doesn't mean the wall completely sucks. But its dumb to say, 'if KM and WR were here we would have no problem' but there absence has exposed possible problems on our team. Not Gaping holes, but more like some cracks along what looked like a pretty spotless (for SLU) team.

What happens if a house loses its foundation? Because that's what happened to us.

[NH]

What happens if a house loses its foundation? Because that's what happened to us.

You hop on a train and head to a hotel

[NH]

I have been following Billiken basketball for more than 40 years. I can tell you that the this roster that Majerus had assembled was the deepest and most talented that I have seen during my time as a Bills fan. Now granted, we certainly are not talking about a history like Duke or North Carolina, but Majerus is clearly the best SLU recruiter in at least four decades. And before you attempt to put words in my mouth again, I never suggested it was perfect. He recruited Willie and Kwamain, two players poised to be all-conference. He got Cassity even after Michigan offered him. He got Cody away from Wake Forest and Loe away from Pitt and Georgia Tech. He got early commitments from Evans and McCall before bigger programs could swoop in. He landed an oustanding young point guard in Jett. You think so highly of Majerus's recruiting that you even claim that this year's team likely would be hanging around the Top 25. Let me tell you something, that has not happened very often in SLU history. So when you call my comments about the recruiting from Majerus dumb or ignorant, you are way off base, especially when you believe he had put together a Top 25 roster! I am not sure why you can't see the flaw in your reasoning, but hopefully someday you will.

Like I have tried to explain to you, just because we had a roster talented enough to be a top 25 team doesn't mean RM hasn't had any problems recruiting.

Soderberg had a world of problems recruiting. But he got Lisch away from Indiana and Notre Dame. He got Liddell away from UConn. He got Relphorde away Depaul, Washington State and UNLV. That doesn't prove he "had no problems" recruiting.

I wasn't a fan then, but would you really say our roster is more talented than the teams in '94-'95? And that Majerus had proven to be a more talented recruiter than Grawer? He may turn out to be, but at this point Majerus hasn't proven to be a better recruiter than Grawer, at least from what I can gather.

We are not getting very highly-rated players, which granted is certainly not the only means for success in recruiting. We aren't having on-court success either, although there are extenuating circumstances. The point is, while you and I may think RM is assembling a roster capable of doing some damage (assuming KM and WR come back) at this point nothing has been proven.

I hope that made sense.

[For-DaLove]

You hop on a train and head to a hotel

I guess you could say that's what we did on that early spring morning. Although, that hotel wasn't quite a 5 star.

[GoBills]

BUT THEY AREN"T!

Think about it this way, You look at a wall with some nice wallpaper or a good paint job, it looks like a nice wall. (Yes I realize this metaphor is probably crap, I couldn't think of the right one, if anyone does afterwards feel free to chip in). Then the wall loses that outer pretty covering. It still looks good, but there is a stain or two, maybe some cracks. Just because you couldn't see the cracks were there, doesn't mean they weren't there. And just because there are cracks, doesn't mean the wall completely sucks. But its dumb to say, 'if KM and WR were here we would have no problem' but there absence has exposed possible problems on our team. Not Gaping holes, but more like some cracks along what looked like a pretty spotless (for SLU) team.

First of all, if you want to be taken seriously and not regarded as a little kid, you might want to try to think of better words than dumb or stupid to label opinions that you don't agree with. Frankly, it makes you look - well, nevermind. Of course KM and WR has exposed problems, that is because the guys who are getting their minutes are not as good! And a lot of players are forced into roles that they are not yet well suited for.

You claim it "dumb" for me to say 'if KM and WR were here we would have no problem" - YET, it is perfectly sensible for YOU to say that if KM and WR were here the Bills would be in the Top 25?

[For-DaLove]

First of all, if you want to be taken seriously and not regarded as a little kid, you might want to try to think of better words than dumb or stupid to label opinions that you don't agree with. Frankly, it makes you look - well, nevermind. Of course KM and WR has exposed problems, that is because the guys who are getting their minutes are not as good! And a lot of players are forced into roles that they are not yet well suited for.

You claim it "dumb" for me to say 'if KM and WR were here we would have no problem" - YET, it is perfectly sensible for YOU to say that if KM and WR were here the Bills would be in the Top 25?

GoBills, please stop abusing this kid. We all know you are right.

[NH]

First of all, if you want to be taken seriously and not regarded as a little kid, you might want to try to think of better words than dumb or stupid to label opinions that you don't agree with. Frankly, it makes you look - well, nevermind. Of course KM and WR has exposed problems, that is because the guys who are getting their minutes are not as good! And a lot of players are forced into roles that they are not yet well suited for.

You claim it "dumb" for me to say 'if KM and WR were here we would have no problem" - YET, it is perfectly sensible for YOU to say that if KM and WR were here the Bills would be in the Top 25?

I never called anything or anyone "stupid", but yeah, but yeah I'm the one putting words in people's mouths. And I'll decide which words to use, but I appreciate your advice.

And that's cute saying "well, never-mind". If you wanted people to not mind, you would have deleted the sentence. But that's a nice way to get your point across while still looking like youre taking the high road.

I think you are missing what I'm trying to say. I did not call the statement "if KM and WR were here we would have no problem" dumb. Ever. That did not happen. You said RM has had no problems recruiting or something very similar to that. I dispute that statement. The lack of KM and WR have exposed several problems in recruiting. While you and I both agree those problems would be less visible should WR and KM still be on the team, they are there nonetheless. We lack guys who can defend, score and rebound in the post. WR was our only true, polished big. We lack guys (outside of the freshman PG duo) who can create their own shot. Like you said, we wouldn't notice these problems if our full team was there and RM and staff have landed us some talented valuable players. But I don't think that means what have to act like the problems aren't there. Fair enough?

[NH]

GoBills, please stop abusing this kid. We all know you are right.

No. If I'm wrong then someone should tell me. But I truly think GoBIlls is somewhat misinterpreting what I'm saying.

And I've posted on the board much more than both of you combined. It's frustrating to have you act like I don't understand what goes on around here.

[jbizzle09]

BUT THEY AREN"T!

Think about it this way, You look at a wall with some nice wallpaper or a good paint job, it looks like a nice wall. (Yes I realize this metaphor is probably crap, I couldn't think of the right one, if anyone does afterwards feel free to chip in). Then the wall loses that outer pretty covering. It still looks good, but there is a stain or two, maybe some cracks. Just because you couldn't see the cracks were there, doesn't mean they weren't there. And just because there are cracks, doesn't mean the wall completely sucks. But its dumb to say, 'if KM and WR were here we would have no problem' but there absence has exposed possible problems on our team. Not Gaping holes, but more like some cracks along what looked like a pretty spotless (for SLU) team.

So RM should be recruiting every year like his 2 best players are going to get kicked off of the team right before the season starts? That seems to be the very crux of your argument this entire time. I understand you like to mix it up on the board and create a debate, but I don't understand what your true point really is on this subject. Should we point out every D-1 basketball player that doesn't play all that well and call them a recruiting failure? Each team has 13 scholarships with 200 minutes to fill. I am sure there are recruiting failures all over the place based on that logic.

Personally, I find no real issues with the past 3 recruiting classes other than Majerus was initially starting with a pretty bare cupboard and thus there was some yearly turnover based on players not wanting to sit on the bench or having a difficult time academically (along with other myriad issues.) He recruited 2 star-quality players (KM and WR), a player who has shown star qualities (CE), a very solid D-1 player (KC) and an average to solid player (BC). This isn't even counting this year's class, which may be his best and has several potential star-quality players.

It is easy to point out cracks or holes or whatever when unforeseen events happen that blow the whole thing up. It becomes very convenient at that point and you are able to shape the argument in a way to fit a certain agenda. It becomes easy to point out that BC or CR can't fill the void that Willie left. Or that BT turned out to have a terrible work ethic and is now balling for Lindenwood. Or that CS can't score to save his life and has made the loss of KM that much harder. I can go on and on. The fact is, it is just patently unfair to use this situation to make an argument that RM has problems recruiting.

[jbizzle09]

No. If I'm wrong then someone should tell me. But I truly think GoBIlls is somewhat misinterpreting what I'm saying.

And I've posted on the board much more than both of you combined. It's frustrating to have you act like I don't understand what goes on around here.

Earlier upthread you stated that how you are viewed by others on this board is not a very high priority to you. Then you follow it up with this post where you point out that you have more posts than two others combined. Seems to me that it is a high priority to you how others see you on this board.

Yet you wonder why others might be 'misinterpreting' what you are trying to say. Personally, I don't think you quite know what you are trying to say.

[Duff Man]

I wasn't a fan then, but would you really say our roster is more talented than the teams in '94-'95?

It's hard to compare a roster dominated by upperclassmen to a roster dominated by underclassmen that's missing its 2 most talented players, but with Willie and Kwamain, this team is more talented than those vintage Spoonball teams. Those mid 90s teams overachieved thanks to the 3pt shooting of Claggett/Highmark/Waldman, trademark Spoonhour defensive intensity, and the craftiness of the undersized frontcourt - specifically 6'3 Dobbs, 6'6 Robinson, and 6'5 Harris. The latter 2 were essentially more seasoned variations of Dwayne Evans. Dobbs was a freak, but no one would argue he was more talented than Willie. Claggett and Waldman are the standard by which all SLU backcourts should be judged, and while none of the current batch of guards can pass like H or shoot like Claggett, none of the guards on those mid-90s teams had the all-around tools that these current players (KM/Jett/McCall) have already demonstrated.

While no one on the current roster has matched what Scott Highmark brought to the table, Cassity isn't that far off, and between Loe, Ellis, and Barnett - someone should be able to fill that role - the talent is there.

[The Pelican]

You hop on a train and head to a hotel

No, go to the hotel first to get off campus then hop on that train. Didn't you learn anything in May.

[Quality Is Job 1]

It's hard to compare a roster dominated by upperclassmen to a roster dominated by underclassmen that's missing its 2 most talented players, but with Willie and Kwamain, this team is more talented than those vintage Spoonball teams. Those mid 90s teams overachieved thanks to the 3pt shooting of Claggett/Highmark/Waldman, trademark Spoonhour defensive intensity, and the craftiness of the undersized frontcourt - specifically 6'3 Dobbs, 6'6 Robinson, and 6'5 Harris. The latter 2 were essentially more seasoned variations of Dwayne Evans. Dobbs was a freak, but no one would argue he was more talented than Willie. Claggett and Waldman are the standard by which all SLU backcourts should be judged, and while none of the current batch of guards can pass like H or shoot like Claggett, none of the guards on those mid-90s teams had the all-around tools that these current players (KM/Jett/McCall) have already demonstrated.

While no one on the current roster has matched what Scott Highmark brought to the table, Cassity isn't that far off, and between Loe, Ellis, and Barnett - someone should be able to fill that role - the talent is there.

You could also refer to the italicized traits as talent and depth. Experience also helped them — and Majerus's teams have lacked experience — but to say that Jeff Harris is a more season version of Evans this year is not really accurate, because in 1993-94 Harris was a 6'4" freshman, just as Evans is this year.

Even with Mitchell and Reed I'm not sure this year's squad is necessarily deeper than the '94 and '95 squads. It's disturbing how little the non-freshmen are contributing, as if they've already peaked.

[NH]

Earlier upthread you stated that how you are viewed by others on this board is not a very high priority to you. Then you follow it up with this post where you point out that you have more posts than two others combined. Seems to me that it is a high priority to you how others see you on this board.

Yet you wonder why others might be 'misinterpreting' what you are trying to say. Personally, I don't think you quite know what you are trying to say.

Never said that. In fact said the opposite. " but honestly how I come off across on billikens.com is not THAT high up on my priorities."

So yes sometimes I do get misinterpreted. You have proven that.

[Duff Man]

You could also refer to the italicized traits as talent and depth. Experience also helped them — and Majerus's teams have lacked experience — but to say that Jeff Harris is a more season version of Evans this year is not really accurate, because in 1993-94 Harris was a 6'4" freshman, just as Evans is this year.

Just give it up duder...

As a freshman, Harris only played 8 minutes per game averaging 1.46 rebounds and 1.54 points. He became a major contributor his second year, essentially filling the rebounding gap left by Dobbs.

Evans has been a major contributor as a freshman and I would expect him to take a step forward next year.

[DirtyRican]

No. If I'm wrong then someone should tell me. But I truly think GoBIlls is somewhat misinterpreting what I'm saying.

And I've posted on the board much more than both of you combined. It's frustrating to have you act like I don't understand what goes on around here.

NH, I am sure you are a great guy but you do post alot. When I was your age I was experimenting with drugs and alcohol.... it was fun.

[eastsidejoe]

NH, I am sure you are a great guy but you do post alot. When I was your age I was experimenting with drugs and alcohol.... it was fun.

Well that explains a few things.

[BACKHANDtheRICAN]

NH, I am sure you are a great guy but you do post alot. When I was your age I was experimenting with drugs and alcohol.... it was fun.

+1

[Clock_Tower]

Yeah that's a lot of it.

To say we have had no problems recruiting is to ignore the fact that we haven't landed some of our top targets (Clocktower, I'm pretty sure RM has since said Griffey was our top target, Cody signed in the spring as well not sure what that means). Also, BThomp was a recruiting failure. Cotto and Maybe Justin Jordan couldn't do it academically. Salecich to this point has not shown much. We have had trouble landing good big men. Those are all problems. Gobills, if you have no problems doesn't that imply you are perfect? maybe I am losing something in translation there.

We are in a great spot if WR and KM come back. That doesn't mean we have to not worry about the talent level at all or questions anything ever. It's a message board for goodness sakes.

NH. So you now concede that Matt Roth was not our top target in 2008? As to Cody Ellis, he is the real deal. Being from Austrailia, their basketball year does not correspond with the USA highschool year (November signing period) so he was not a Plan B - Spring recruit. Last year, very few Frosh could have stepped in and did what he did. This year, he has been slowed by mono and the fireworks accident. Further, he was not/is not a powerful inside player. W/o WR taking up space and grabbing rebounds, CE is not able to play his normal game. RL also wants to play the outside/finesse game and be the 3 point shooter but cannot w/o WR or even CR.

As to the Sophomore class, they are still young. At this time last year, many on this Board had given up on KC -- the "bricklayer..." After he continued to mature last year and even more this year, many are now saying how good he is. Well guess what: he is the same kid RM recruited. With his development (and also of BC's development), that Junior class is starting to look even better. My point: give CR and CS a little more time. CR was only 17/18 when he enrolled at SLU. RM wanted to redshirt him but did not b/c of the CE saga with the NCAA. Again, there was talk about a possible redshirt this year for CR. Again, with the loss of WR, that didn't happen. Now, some on this Board believe that the Soph who might have redshirted is now a recruiting failure b/c he cannot handle WR's spot. What happened to patience?

Reminder: most NCAA players are not really good their Frosh and Soph years. Highmark, Claggett, Sloan, Heinrich, Voyoukas .... all were not that good their Soph year. Too early to declare that RM is having "recruiting problems", that our Soph class is a disappointment and that we lack talent b/c our Sophs and Frosh cannot win these early games.

[Duff Man]

Reminder: most NCAA players are not really good their Frosh and Soph years. Highmark, Claggett, Sloan, Heinrich, Voyoukas .... all were not that good their Soph year.

I don't even know where to begin describing what's wrong with this sentence.

[StLouisSportsStream]

" but honestly how I come off across on billikens.com is not THAT high up on my priorities."

Really, it isn't a high priority?

Then why do you always roam the hallways mad at someone on this board. I don't get it. But honestly, how I come off across on billikens is not THAT high up on my priorities, but i think it is high on yours. That's all