attendance -- new thoughts

[DoctorB]

I read a lot of the other thread, and though I skimmed much of it, the key is missing. . . . here's the deal:

I was surprised and disappointed by the student numbers. winning will make a huge difference; when we start drawing students by the THOUSANDS; as opposed to last year in the hundreds (or dozens) -- all our attendance problems (which are not big problems, by the way will fade away.

We do not have an attendance problem with the community, older folks, or alumni. We need many more students to join the party. The difference between SLU and, say, Dayton or Xavier, is students, plain and simple.

[billikenfan05]

Most of the student problem will be resolved. For some odd reason local students will not come out for games over break. Maybe the AD should give those students free parking to the games over break.

[billiken_roy]

I read a lot of the other thread, and though I skimmed much of it, the key is missing. . . . here's the deal:

I was surprised and disappointed by the student numbers. winning will make a huge difference; when we start drawing students by the THOUSANDS; as opposed to last year in the hundreds (or dozens) -- all our attendance problems (which are not big problems, by the way will fade away.

We do not have an attendance problem with the community, older folks, or alumni. We need many more students to join the party. The difference between SLU and, say, Dayton or Xavier, is students, plain and simple.

doc b i agree with some of your thoughts, however, count me in the group that was impressed with the increase in student involvement and enthusiasm this past season. while it isnt duke or gonzaga like yet, the truth is it has significantly increased already and there is indeed a sense of 'getting the ball rolling".

sure there were games where a handful of students showed, but there were also a significant number of games were the students overflowed out of the end zone.

personally i didnt expect what did happen with student attendance. but then again, i remember unfondly the days where it was me and taj and bonwich probably sitting there not even knowing each other and two other students in our end zone at the old checkerdome watching a 6th crazed student trying to scare no thumb wiley brown of louisville while he was shooting a free throw, by charging the end line with a folding chair over his head (btw, brown air balled it which enabled the billikens to keep the ending spread at 25 points). doc, you are probably thinking of comparing our students to an indiana game. and at this point, that isnt going to happen over night even if we win.

i'll give em more time. they continue to grow the student attendance like they did last year, it wont be long.

[kevinfootes]

I read a lot of the other thread, and though I skimmed much of it, the key is missing. . . . here's the deal:

I was surprised and disappointed by the student numbers. winning will make a huge difference; when we start drawing students by the THOUSANDS; as opposed to last year in the hundreds (or dozens) -- all our attendance problems (which are not big problems, by the way will fade away.

We do not have an attendance problem with the community, older folks, or alumni. We need many more students to join the party. The difference between SLU and, say, Dayton or Xavier, is students, plain and simple.

I'd be interested in seeing what percentage of season-ticket holding students live on campus vs. off campus. If you have out-of-town students holding the tickets, they probably won't go through the effort to get rid of the seats during break. Especially if you have the kind of opponents we did.

Doc, there was a lot of thought on here that an on-campus arena would solve student apathy overnight, because they had to go so "far" to the Kiel.

I think it will happen, but it's going to take 3 or 4 years IMO (barring a 25-win season or something like that) to change the student culture. In the 10-12 years between the time that roy and I were students, the crowds went from 10 students to about 30.

[Clock_Tower]

doc b i agree with some of your thoughts, however, count me in the group that was impressed with the increase in student involvement and enthusiasm this past season. while it isnt duke or gonzaga like yet, the truth is it has significantly increased already and there is indeed a sense of 'getting the ball rolling".

sure there were games where a handful of students showed, but there were also a significant number of games were the students overflowed out of the end zone.

personally i didnt expect what did happen with student attendance. but then again, i remember unfondly the days where it was me and taj and bonwich probably sitting there not even knowing each other and two other students in our end zone at the old checkerdome watching a 6th crazed student trying to scare no thumb wiley brown of louisville while he was shooting a free throw, by charging the end line with a folding chair over his head (btw, brown air balled it which enabled the billikens to keep the ending spread at 25 points). doc, you are probably thinking of comparing our students to an indiana game. and at this point, that isnt going to happen over night even if we win.

i'll give em more time. they continue to grow the student attendance like they did last year, it wont be long.

Agreed.

Sounds a bit like student attendance at soccer games. I admit I only go to 1 soccer game or 2 a year but it does seem like the students showup big for the beginning of school and then for organized events - from dorm related competitions to Greek events to Blue/White Out events. If you attend during one of these games, you are thoroughly impressed. If not, you forget that SLU is actually a college team.

Roy, I recall the "student section" during those years - so guess I "saw" you back then - when I'd go once a year with our free, straight A tickets in the late '70's and early '80's. Ron Ekker and the Bills... good times!! Guess Grawer would have been the coach during the game when Keith Lee and the Dana Kirk lead Memphis Tigers came to town and pasted our Bills yet again.

[billiken_roy]

Agreed.

Sounds a bit like student attendance at soccer games. I admit I only go to 1 soccer game or 2 a year but it does seem like the students showup big for the beginning of school and then for organized events - from dorm related competitions to Greek events to Blue/White Out events. If you attend during one of these games, you are thoroughly impressed. If not, you forget that SLU is actually a college team.

Roy, I recall the "student section" during those years - so guess I "saw" you back then - when I'd go once a year with our free, straight A tickets in the late '70's and early '80's. Ron Ekker and the Bills... good times!! Guess Grawer would have been the coach during the game when Keith Lee and the Dana Kirk lead Memphis Tigers came to town and pasted our Bills yet again.

my four years coincided with the four extremely dark years of ron ekker. today's students and fans have no clue what losing and dismal is about.

but i never missed a game and i had to get over to the checkerdome for games on my own. i would have killed for a three block walk down laclede.

[kwyjibo]

I read a lot of the other thread, and though I skimmed much of it, the key is missing. . . . here's the deal:

I was surprised and disappointed by the student numbers. winning will make a huge difference; when we start drawing students by the THOUSANDS; as opposed to last year in the hundreds (or dozens) -- all our attendance problems (which are not big problems, by the way will fade away.

We do not have an attendance problem with the community, older folks, or alumni. We need many more students to join the party. The difference between SLU and, say, Dayton or Xavier, is students, plain and simple.

I am very surprised by all the spin put on the attendance. Fact is that the average attendance this last year was lower than ANY year in the last 18. It was lower than ANY year under Soderberg, Romar, and Spoonhour. There are good things about SLU's basketball program, the direction of attendance is not one of them (slouching toward pampered irrelevance?).

The sad fact is that people on this board rather talk about what is good for them and what feels good to them rather than what is good for the program. This program invested 80 million in a new facility and a few extra million in annual staff costs. They got nothing in attendance for that investment. I understand they got more revenue (but that is nothing compared to higher marginal cost). So the net effect is less people experiencing the program at a much higher financial loss per game.

[jp18]

Everyone keeps revisiting the attendance from this past season, but it is pretty simple in my eyes. They made the prices way too high for the product and paid the price. They started running specials and promotions later in the year and the numbers were better. It is pretty simple - lower the prices. We are in tough times now and people aren't going to shell out $100 or $150 or whatever it would cost to take their family to a Billiken game. They need to get the casual fan back, which was missing last season for most of the year. Don't get me wrong - winning will help, but you also need to have more affordable tickets.

[courtside]

Everyone keeps revisiting the attendance from this past season, but it is pretty simple in my eyes. They made the prices way too high for the product and paid the price. They started running specials and promotions later in the year and the numbers were better. It is pretty simple - lower the prices. We are in tough times now and people aren't going to shell out $100 or $150 or whatever it would cost to take their family to a Billiken game. They need to get the casual fan back, which was missing last season for most of the year. Don't get me wrong - winning will help, but you also need to have more affordable tickets.

+1

Marketing quality and resources need to keep improving. The entertainment value needs improvement as well. This entails a lot of different things and many of those are off of the court. Aggressive pricing to pay for the new Arena has to be tempered with the reality of the schedule, and lack of consistent winning at a high level for any length of time. Any type of thought out there that suggests, well, there is a new building, that's all that's necessary, is incomplete at best, and I know that thought exists in different places. If you provide a quality product, with quality entertainment value, and do this consistently with quality resources and quality people running those resources, people will go to games.

[slu72]

+1

Marketing quality and resources need to keep improving. The entertainment value needs improvement as well. This entails a lot of different things and many of those are off of the court. Aggressive pricing to pay for the new Arena has to be tempered with the reality of the schedule, and lack of consistent winning at a high level for any length of time. Any type of thought out there that suggests, well, there is a new building, that's all that's necessary, is incomplete at best, and I know that thought exists in different places. If you provide a quality product, with quality entertainment value, and do this consistently with quality resources and quality people running those resources, people will go to games.

Really quite simple.....WIN! W's put a**es in the seats. That gets us exposure, ESPN games.... and students always come out for those. Hey mom.... Hi dad.... look for me in my Blue and white Afro! I am surprised attendance was the lowest in 18 years. Especially with RM. Figured people would come just to see him. I also think more of a push should be on building a fan base with community youth and HS's. That arena's gonna be there for a long time start building for the future as well. If a 4th or 5th graders first exposure to college hoops is SLU and it's a fun experience they're gonna want to come back.

[kwyjibo]

Really quite simple.....WIN! W's put a**es in the seats.

Except that it is not that simple. If you look at the last twenty years at SLU statistically, Wins play a relatively small role in explaining attendance (basically, the statistical evidence is 6000 fans no matter what and 300 additional fans per win). I also checked the influence of wins in the previous year (not much). The best statistical explanation came from using Wins over 20 (then there was an even higher "base"; each win only got 100 additional fans but each win over 20 got 1500 fans--but we cannot get that anymore because we capped attendance at 11,000). I obviously cannot factor in the marketing/pricing/game experience but those things seem much more important statistically.

[Band Legend]

Except that it is not that simple. If you look at the last twenty years at SLU statistically, Wins play a relatively small role in explaining attendance (basically, the statistical evidence is 6000 fans no matter what and 300 additional fans per win). I also checked the influence of wins in the previous year (not much). The best statistical explanation came from using Wins over 20 (then there was an even higher "base"; each win only got 100 additional fans but each win over 20 got 1500 fans--but we cannot get that anymore because we capped attendance at 11,000). I obviously cannot factor in the marketing/pricing/game experience but those things seem much more important statistically.

The point about the capping of attendance is a very important one; in a 10,600 seat facility, there isn't going to be two or three games where you draw between 13,000-20,000 and drive up attendance for the year. Having one game against UNC is like adding 700 people to every game on the schedule. Even in the last year at Scottrade we drew close to 15,000 against Xavier if my memory serves me correctly. So add together a lousy non-conference schedule and capping the attencance at 10,600 should explain the situation. We will never average over 10,600 again. Are you guys going to gnash your teeth over that?

[kevinfootes]

Everyone keeps revisiting the attendance from this past season, but it is pretty simple in my eyes. They made the prices way too high for the product and paid the price. They started running specials and promotions later in the year and the numbers were better. It is pretty simple - lower the prices. We are in tough times now and people aren't going to shell out $100 or $150 or whatever it would cost to take their family to a Billiken game. They need to get the casual fan back, which was missing last season for most of the year. Don't get me wrong - winning will help, but you also need to have more affordable tickets.

None of this matters, according to several posters. Pricing/Marketing/Quality of opponets don't matter and SLU shouldn't waste any effort on these.

[Clock_Tower]

I am very surprised by all the spin put on the attendance. Fact is that the average attendance this last year was lower than ANY year in the last 18. It was lower than ANY year under Soderberg, Romar, and Spoonhour. There are good things about SLU's basketball program, the direction of attendance is not one of them (slouching toward pampered irrelevance?).

The sad fact is that people on this board rather talk about what is good for them and what feels good to them rather than what is good for the program. This program invested 80 million in a new facility and a few extra million in annual staff costs. They got nothing in attendance for that investment. I understand they got more revenue (but that is nothing compared to higher marginal cost). So the net effect is less people experiencing the program at a much higher financial loss per game.

Truthful comments about a change in the how attendance is calculated along with the halving of available seats in the face of a doubling of the ticket price plus the implementation of an annual fee per seat and you call this "spin" ?? Whatever.

As to your other comments, what is SLU's "higher marginal cost"? Also, where do you come up with "a few extra million in annual staff costs"? Obviously, you are well versed in SLU's financial statements but you do realize that SLU now owns this $80 million building, that it rents it out to make extra money, that it now retains all parking and concession revenue and that the Chaveitz is also a centerpiece for SLU fundraising as it brings alumni and friends of SLU back to campus. Also, from a revenue standpoint, not only does the doubling of season ticket prices, even as you admit, result in more revenue but also the annual fee of $400 per seat and $150 per seat also is another huge revenue source. At $400 per seat, 3,000 seats would result in an additional $1.3 million alone.

Finally, if SLU had sold out every game, they would have added only 3000 fans per game. At the full price of $450 per seat, this would have only yielded an additional $1.3 million. Would not even a sold out Chaveitz (extra $1.3 million) be money loser when compared to the "few extra million in annual staff costs"?

Maybe you're right. Why build Chaveitz when you still have West Pine??

[GoBills]

doc b i agree with some of your thoughts, however, count me in the group that was impressed with the increase in student involvement and enthusiasm this past season. while it isnt duke or gonzaga like yet, the truth is it has significantly increased already and there is indeed a sense of 'getting the ball rolling".

sure there were games where a handful of students showed, but there were also a significant number of games were the students overflowed out of the end zone.

personally i didnt expect what did happen with student attendance. but then again, i remember unfondly the days where it was me and taj and bonwich probably sitting there not even knowing each other and two other students in our end zone at the old checkerdome watching a 6th crazed student trying to scare no thumb wiley brown of louisville while he was shooting a free throw, by charging the end line with a folding chair over his head (btw, brown air balled it which enabled the billikens to keep the ending spread at 25 points). doc, you are probably thinking of comparing our students to an indiana game. and at this point, that isnt going to happen over night even if we win.

i'll give em more time. they continue to grow the student attendance like they did last year, it wont be long.

I first started going to games in the Bob Polk era, so I appreciate your perspective. I also thought that the student turnout was much improved over the previous building. It was a little inconsistent, but it was a noticeable improvement and the enthusiasm level was much higher. The fact that there was more of them and they were closer to the court, made it seem like the students played a much bigger factor. In particular the St. Joseph's and Dayton games, really felt like the Bills had a home court advantage.

[GoBills]

Truthful comments about a change in the how attendance is calculated along with the halving of available seats in the face of a doubling of the ticket price plus the implementation of an annual fee per seat and you call this "spin" ?? Whatever.

Come on quit making "excuses." You should have "higher standards." Just kidding. Excellent analysis.

[kwyjibo]

.

Please explain to me how SLU makes up $40 million in bond payments from any aspect of the basketball program. You are such a smart guy with all the great arguments (like eye-rolling) it should be easy. And remember SLU has to pay interest on that $40 million. So yes, completely full with a ridiculous and alienating seat license the place would still lose money. I made that point years before any arena was built and it is more true today (even I would have expected a much better first year at a new facility).

The Chaifetz had about 30 events (many of which were lucky to break even, some probably lost money). How can any facility that is unused 90% of the time make money? Concession revenue?

Also, you seem to understand that higher ticket prices and seat licenses are responsible for the lower attendance but how does fewer people going to see the team help the team? Yes you get more revenue but you lose something too. This is the fundamental hypocrisy of "Yankeetizing" sports; you treat fans like ATMs and then you wonder why they are not passionate and interest in your team (product?) wanes. So which is it, a large and passionate fan base or content clubby concession utilizers? While you can have some of both, you are not going to be able to keep both happy.

[Clock_Tower]

Please explain to me how SLU makes up $40 million in bond payments from any aspect of the basketball program. You are such a smart guy with all the great arguments (like eye-rolling) it should be easy. And remember SLU has to pay interest on that $40 million. So yes, completely full with a ridiculous and alienating seat license the place would still lose money. I made that point years before any arena was built and it is more true today (even I would have expected a much better first year at a new facility).

The Chaifetz had about 30 events (many of which were lucky to break even, some probably lost money). How can any facility that is unused 90% of the time make money? Concession revenue?

Also, you seem to understand that higher ticket prices and seat licenses are responsible for the lower attendance but how does fewer people going to see the team help the team? Yes you get more revenue but you lose something too. This is the fundamental hypocrisy of "Yankeetizing" sports; you treat fans like ATMs and then you wonder why they are not passionate and interest in your team (product?) wanes. So which is it, a large and passionate fan base or content clubby concession utilizers? While you can have some of both, you are not going to be able to keep both happy.

Kwyj. You're the one with the dollar figures. I don't claim to have that information. Unless I am reading you wrong, I guess you think SLU should not have built the Chaveitz. I, for one, am glad SLU did build it. In short, Fr. Biondi and SLU had to decide whether or not they wanted to be a legitimate D1 basketball and sports program. If so, West Pine gym for practice, women's games, volleyball, coaching offices and weight training was no longer a viable option. Most arenas are not used all the time so having 30 rental dates along with practice/games for volleyball and both basketball programs, marketing and fundraising purposes, graduation and other large events is normal and expected. Must every college building, program and organization be a profit center at a major university? I don't think so. Chaveitz should have been built 10 years earlier but better late than never.

As to fewer people going to the games, it is not only the higher ticket prices and seat licenses when compared to prior years but also the fact that they are now counting actual people who show up rather than people who simply bought tickets -- a big difference. Yes, fewer people can and will go basketball games at Chaveitz. That's is expected and what happens when you go from a 20,000 building down to 10,600. With deep discounts on individual tickets and now a lower second tier price structure for upper level season tickets, SLU is recognizing that they overestimated demand, has made the product more affordable and is trying to maximize attendance at the smaller venue. Yes, the cheap family entertainment for a Saturday walk-up game against Marquette, Cincy, etc. is no longer but I would not go so far as to say SLU is anywhere close to being priced like the Yankees.

[xfactor9600]

I read a lot of the other thread, and though I skimmed much of it, the key is missing. . . . here's the deal:

I was surprised and disappointed by the student numbers. winning will make a huge difference; when we start drawing students by the THOUSANDS; as opposed to last year in the hundreds (or dozens) -- all our attendance problems (which are not big problems, by the way will fade away.

We do not have an attendance problem with the community, older folks, or alumni. We need many more students to join the party. The difference between SLU and, say, Dayton or Xavier, is students, plain and simple.

Xavier has it's own share of problems getting the students to literally walk across the parking lot into Cintas Center from the dorms. There are many non prime-time games where the student section isn't full till about 10 minutes before half-time. If you guys figure out how to do it, let us know how to do it in Cincy.

Honestly I loved going to basketball in college (I had to drive to Cincinnati Gardens), and can't understand why the students don't get behind an on-campus team more.

So while winning does help with student attendance. It still doesn't assure you of packing the arena with them.