Tommie's stats

[slufanskip]

During the last third of the season I've been critical of Tommie in my mind and probably on here in posts. I know others have also. One thing I noticed was how many fewer shots Tommie was taking. In my mind it made him seem like he was playing much more passive. So I decided to look up some stats to see how many less. When I was doing that, I couldn't help but notice the increase in his assist totals.

Is there any doubt that since the 1st Dayton game, the loss on the road, that we've been playing much better. As I see it, there isn't. We have been playing better.

Since and including that Dayton game Kwamain has taken 2 1/2 more shots per game, but his assists have dropped a little over 1 per game. At the same time Tommie has taken almost 4 less shots per game, but at the same time his assists have increased almost 2 per game. Clearly during this run KM has been more of a scorer and Tommie more of a facilitator. Is this being coached? Is Tommie sacrificing his own personal scoring stats to help us become a better team? Is this a sign of Tommie becoming a more rounded player.

His yearly assist averages throughout his career have been between 2 and about 2 1/2 per year. In this run it's been 3.72 per game. His rebounding this year has been up from last year and closer to his soph and Jr years. I didn't look at his turnovers during this run, but when I get a minute I will.

[dlarry]

I think Tommy kind of transformed himself into a poor mans scottie pippen.

He could get his shots if he wanted to but felt running the offense helped the team more.

[Bay Area Billiken]

During the last third of the season I've been critical of Tommie in my mind and probably on here in posts. I know others have also. One thing I noticed was how many fewer shots Tommie was taking. In my mind it made him seem like he was playing much more passive. So I decided to look up some stats to see how many less. When I was doing that, I couldn't help but notice the increase in his assist totals.

Is there any doubt that since the 1st Dayton game, the loss on the road, that we've been playing much better. As I see it, there isn't. We have been playing better.

Since and including that Dayton game Kwamain has taken 2 1/2 more shots per game, but his assists have dropped a little over 1 per game. At the same time Tommie has taken almost 4 less shots per game, but at the same time his assists have increased almost 2 per game. Clearly during this run KM has been more of a scorer and Tommie more of a facilitator. Is this being coached? Is Tommie sacrificing his own personal scoring stats to help us become a better team? Is this a sign of Tommie becoming a more rounded player.

His yearly assist averages throughout his career have been between 2 and about 2 1/2 per year. In this run it's been 3.72 per game. His rebounding this year has been up from last year and closer to his soph and Jr years. I didn't look at his turnovers during this run, but when I get a minute I will.

Liddell had 2 beautiful assists today when I was watching.

I still believe he will play professionally somewhere.

[slufanskip]

I checked his turnover stats also. In the 11 game stretch to end the reg season he had a 1.36 assist to t/o ratio. Before that it was .88 almost a 1/2 percent better. To take it even further his career asst to t/o ratio before this run was .93. He had more t/o's than asst's for his career.

It leads me to ask has Tommie really rergressed under RM? or is he becoming a different kind of ballplayer. Many of us saw pg skills from Tommie when he was younger, but he seemed a little lacksidaiscal with the ball. Is this the type ballplayer he needs to be to continue to grow and have a longer proffessional career?

The 3.72 assist per game rate he has had since the 1st Richmond game would place him 9th in the conference on a team that is 2nd to the last 13th in scoring.

[Clock_Tower]

I checked his turnover stats also. In the 11 game stretch to end the reg season he had a 1.36 assist to t/o ratio. Before that it was .88 almost a 1/2 percent better. To take it even further his career asst to t/o ratio before this run was .93. He had more t/o's than asst's for his career.

It leads me to ask has Tommie really rergressed under RM? or is he becoming a different kind of ballplayer. Many of us saw pg skills from Tommie when he was younger, but he seemed a little lacksidaiscal with the ball. Is this the type ballplayer he needs to be to continue to grow and have a longer proffessional career?

The 3.72 assist per game rate he has had since the 1st Richmond game would place him 9th in the conference on a team that is 2nd to the last 13th in scoring.

Skip. You may be on to something; however, in my mind, both great players and Seniors step and carry the team on their backs. Anthony Bonner did that both his Jr. and Sr. years. Maurice Jeffers did that his Senior year. Justin Love did that his Senior year. Larry did that his only year here. As to KL and TL, I did not see it. Therefore, IMO, they will be good Billikens who contributed all 4 years, gave it all they had and did so without scandal or any hint of shame upon the University. I commend them for their contributions and am thankful I was able to watch them. They brought alot of entertainment and joy to me and the program. With that said, they will not be Billiken "greats" in my mind.

[billiken_roy]

they will not be Billiken "greats" in my mind.

right, the 6th and 7th all time scorers, and top ten in numerous other categories in about 200 years of billiken basketball are not great.

[GOSLU68]

Skip. You may be on to something; however, in my mind, both great players and Seniors step and carry the team on their backs. Anthony Bonner did that both his Jr. and Sr. years. Maurice Jeffers did that his Senior year. Justin Love did that his Senior year. Larry did that his only year here. As to KL and TL, I did not see it. Therefore, IMO, they will be good Billikens who contributed all 4 years, gave it all they had and did so without scandal or any hint of shame upon the University. I commend them for their contributions and am thankful I was able to watch them. They brought alot of entertainment and joy to me and the program. With that said, they will not be Billiken "greats" in my mind.

I have not seen the stats for the game I watched today. i did see the stats for the game yesterday. i think nearly every player we had was 30 to 33

percent field goal percentage.

Everybody would have a lot more assists per game if we made more shots.

I'm not sure Tommie got better his junior and senior years, I question whether I would want him or KL to be starters; whether KL started or not I would want KL to be my sixth man for the excitement and energy he brings to the game. Whether KL shoots 33 percent is not as important as quickness with which he can attack.

I hope both have great pro careers and both have been good for SLU. Two years ago I doubted whether KL could play as an equal to TL and now I wonder how I ever considered TL to be superior. This perplexes me and yet I have to conjecture that if both played all out this year it would have changed very little. The two of them had to start for us. The two of them have been our offensive firepower and the targets of the defences we faced but it was the supporting bench or lack of and the other three players being so young where we had a definite drop in calibre of player and

were outgunned. We are going to be better at the 1, 4, 5 in the very near future and we were better at the point this year over last. However, I

would say the same thing about BE and BC. First half of the season Conklin was the man; second half BE was more important.

We can only guess at this point who will be our dominant players next year and will it change from first half to second half.

[RB2.0]

right, the 6th and 7th all time scorers, and top ten in numerous other categories in about 200 years of billiken basketball are not great.

Remember when greats were remembered for winning?

That said, I still think Lisch should go down with the Billiken greats not just for his points and leadership, but for the way he played. It was inspiring. I hope the young guys took note. Practice hard, study hard, and play hard. That's all you can really ask and all should be proud Lisch was part of our team for 4 years.

[Clock_Tower]

right, the 6th and 7th all time scorers, and top ten in numerous other categories in about 200 years of billiken basketball are not great.

Roy. Since their first day at SLU, good or bad, it was always Lisch and Liddell. Few could talk about one without mentioning the other. Clearly they were a good combo for us for 4 years. Absolutely they each put up impressive career stats. I am falling into this same trap as well. At this point, I am struggling with the fact that they are, as you mention, the 6th and 7th all time scorers in Billiken history. Contrary to your post, though, I don't believe SLU had a basketball team 200 years ago - 1809. Would this date not be only 6 years after the Louisiana Purchase? Also, Joe Wiley and others did not play 4 years in that Freshman were not allowed to play until the early 1970's?? Also, the 3 point shot greatly helped TL and KL and this again was not available to SLU's players prior to 1983 ?? or so. Further, Billiken greats likes Claggett and Highmark did not start their Freshman years because of other talented players, played in fewer career games because of such competition and were not the beneficiaries of screens/picks and an offense tailored to them their Freshman and Sophomore years.

With all of this said, I know it is hard to say that the 6th leading scoring is better than the 7th leading scorer especially when the 7th leading scorer is also in the top 10 of rebounding and assists. With that said, Bonner, Claggett, Highmark, Larry, Jeffers, Perry and Love actually won games and played NCAA tournament games. These "greats" also but the team on their backs at various times and carried the team. Also, while I don't have their stats handy, I believe it is safe to say that each of them had great Senior years, wanted the ball at the end of the game and did not morph into a "playmaker" their last 10 games, had more than 5 points on Senior night at home and had more than 6 points in their conference tourney games.

To the extent that I lump KL in with TL, I am sorry in that KL definitely had a better Senior year than TL. With that said, when your 2 and 3 are Seniors, top 7 of all-time scoring and play 35 minutes plus per game, they have to BOTH score in double figures. The college game is a guard dominated game and when your 2 and 3 don't score, the team will not win. When a kid does not score his Senior year, especially down the stretch, and the team does not win, I cannot call them great. As many nice games as they had their first 2 years, they also had their share of bad games -- 3 straight years of losing to St. Bonaventure and Duquesne, 40 point losses to Kent State, 21 point total team performance against GW and 2 blowout losses to rival X. These are not signs of "great" players.

[slufanskip]

Roy. Since their first day at SLU, good or bad, it was always Lisch and Liddell. Few could talk about one without mentioning the other. Clearly they were a good combo for us for 4 years. Absolutely they each put up impressive career stats. I am falling into this same trap as well. At this point, I am struggling with the fact that they are, as you mention, the 6th and 7th all time scorers in Billiken history. Contrary to your post, though, I don't believe SLU had a basketball team 200 years ago - 1809. Would this date not be only 6 years after the Louisiana Purchase? Also, Joe Wiley and others did not play 4 years in that Freshman were not allowed to play until the early 1970's?? Also, the 3 point shot greatly helped TL and KL and this again was not available to SLU's players prior to 1983 ?? or so. Further, Billiken greats likes Claggett and Highmark did not start their Freshman years because of other talented players, played in fewer career games because of such competition and were not the beneficiaries of screens/picks and an offense tailored to them their Freshman and Sophomore years.

With all of this said, I know it is hard to say that the 6th leading scoring is better than the 7th leading scorer especially when the 7th leading scorer is also in the top 10 of rebounding and assists. With that said, Bonner, Claggett, Highmark, Larry, Jeffers, Perry and Love actually won games and played NCAA tournament games. These "greats" also but the team on their backs at various times and carried the team. Also, while I don't have their stats handy, I believe it is safe to say that each of them had great Senior years, wanted the ball at the end of the game and did not morph into a "playmaker" their last 10 games, had more than 5 points on Senior night at home and had more than 6 points in their conference tourney games.

To the extent that I lump KL in with TL, I am sorry in that KL definitely had a better Senior year than TL. With that said, when your 2 and 3 are Seniors, top 7 of all-time scoring and play 35 minutes plus per game, they have to BOTH score in double figures. The college game is a guard dominated game and when your 2 and 3 don't score, the team will not win. When a kid does not score his Senior year, especially down the stretch, and the team does not win, I cannot call them great. As many nice games as they had their first 2 years, they also had their share of bad games -- 3 straight years of losing to St. Bonaventure and Duquesne, 40 point losses to Kent State, 21 point total team performance against GW and 2 blowout losses to rival X. These are not signs of "great" players.

In the realm of college basketball players they aren't great. In the terms of Billiken's in my mind they clearly are.

You said morph into a playmaker. Is that neccessarily bad? Imo we were a better team as KM started to score more and TL clearly became more of a playmaker. And isn't that the goal ... to become a better team? We did have a couple of bad losses, and Sr night was one of them, I agree. But the stats show me TL sacrificed scoring opportunities and as he did we played better as a team. We were only going to be so good as a team.

[MB73]

In the realm of college basketball players they aren't great. In the terms of Billiken's in my mind they clearly are. You said morph into a playmaker. Is that neccessarily bad? Imo we were a better team as KM started to score more and TL clearly became more of a playmaker. And isn't that the goal ... to become a better team? We did have a couple of bad losses, and Sr night was one of them, I agree. But the stats show me TL sacrificed scoring opportunities and as he did we played better as a team. We were only going to be so good as a team.

Agree; but stats are not the only thing. Stat-wise, they were very fortunate, they played all four years, no incumbents so they were needed as freshmen and started freshman year with "V" who was double teamed a lot and allowed them a lot of open shots for two early yrs... so good stats right out of the gate. That is very good timing, so stats piled up. They for what ever reason did not really improve jr and sr years and senior year they were both actually very disapointing.

[Clock_Tower]

In the realm of college basketball players they aren't great. In the terms of Billiken's in my mind they clearly are.

You said morph into a playmaker. Is that neccessarily bad? Imo we were a better team as KM started to score more and TL clearly became more of a playmaker. And isn't that the goal ... to become a better team? We did have a couple of bad losses, and Sr night was one of them, I agree. But the stats show me TL sacrificed scoring opportunities and as he did we played better as a team. We were only going to be so good as a team.

Skip. I'm being nice when I say "morph into a playmaker" in that while he may have had 2 more assists per game down the stretch, I'd hardly call him a playmaker. I've been/remain a big fan of TL and KL and, as mentioned, have thanked them for their efforts... All of my involvement in this thread has been in responde to Jale Jarr's comments which I had hoped would give me more insight. Even Jarr admits that TL was ready for an enormous JR year but it never happened. Same with his Senior year. Not intending to bash TL. Instead, I'm frustrated with his scoring output these last 2 years, I have defended him at length these last 2 years, I had thought he had accepted RM and his peculiar and, at times, overbearing personality and was giving maximum effort. When TL/family decided to make their protest statement by not shaking RM's hand, I know realize I as wrong. TL is free to do/say anything he wants. So am I. Along these same lines, I lost alot of respect for Ozzie Smith the way he sulked, whined and moaned about TLR/Royce Clayton and continues to want nothing to do with the Cardinals while TLR is still around. Ozzie, don't expect me to cheer you when TLR eventually leaves and don't tell me I am supposed to remember TL and his Sophomore season instead these past 2 years and that classless act with RM.

If passing the ball from a Senior/Top 7 scorer of all-time Billiken history to Freshmen makes the team better, and maybe it did, then that is even more proof a his "greatness" or lack thereof.

How many times did opposing players simply go nuts on us? The Kent State guy scored their last 25 points or so. Nevins had a really good game. The guy for Lasalle and Duquesne... How many teams beat us these past 2 years b/c their best player almost single-handedly took over the game and beat us. KL has some really good games, damn near won that X game for us last year and was money down the stretch at the FT line. Bottom line with me: when your 2 and 3 play 35 minutes per game, you need more than 5 to 13 ppg from each.

[slufanskip]

Skip. I'm being nice when I say "morph into a playmaker" in that while he may have had 2 more assists per game down the stretch, I'd hardly call him a playmaker. I've been/remain a big fan of TL and KL and, as mentioned, have thanked them for their efforts... All of my involvement in this thread has been in responde to Jale Jarr's comments which I had hoped would give me more insight. Even Jarr admits that TL was ready for an enormous JR year but it never happened. Same with his Senior year. Not intending to bash TL. Instead, I'm frustrated with his scoring output these last 2 years, I have defended him at length these last 2 years, I had thought he had accepted RM and his peculiar and, at times, overbearing personality and was giving maximum effort. When TL/family decided to make their protest statement by not shaking RM's hand, I know realize I as wrong. TL is free to do/say anything he wants. So am I. Along these same lines, I lost alot of respect for Ozzie Smith the way he sulked, whined and moaned about TLR/Royce Clayton and continues to want nothing to do with the Cardinals while TLR is still around. Ozzie, don't expect me to cheer you when TLR eventually leaves and don't tell me I am supposed to remember TL and his Sophomore season instead these past 2 years and that classless act with RM.

If passing the ball from a Senior/Top 7 scorer of all-time Billiken history to Freshmen makes the team better, and maybe it did, then that is even more proof a his "greatness" or lack thereof.

How many times did opposing players simply go nuts on us? The Kent State guy scored their last 25 points or so. Nevins had a really good game. The guy for Lasalle and Duquesne... How many teams beat us these past 2 years b/c their best player almost single-handedly took over the game and beat us. KL has some really good games, damn near won that X game for us last year and was money down the stretch at the FT line. Bottom line with me: when your 2 and 3 play 35 minutes per game, you need more than 5 to 13 ppg from each.

I don't disagree 100%. And I agree not shaking RM's hand was in poor taste and telling. Imo your assumption that passing the ball off makes him less of a player is wrong. In my mind we became a better team when KM and TL both began to take on different roles and that is the goal. Could we have been even better had TL assumed more of a playmaking role and scored more ... yes.

[Clock_Tower]

I don't disagree 100%. And I agree not shaking RM's hand was in poor taste and telling. Imo your assumption that passing the ball off makes him less of a player is wrong. In my mind we became a better team when KM and TL both began to take on different roles and that is the goal. Could we have been even better had TL assumed more of a playmaking role and scored more ... yes.

True, but does 2 extra assists/game indicate that TL was playing a different role or that the guy who received his pass simply made 2 more shots? Just when I am ready to say that TL started looking to pass first and shoot second, I am reminded of his awesome drive to tie the game against LaSalle in the A10 tourney. W/o that play, KM doesn't have the opportunity to win the game with his last second shot.

Again, not bashing TL. I also understand his style of play can be misinterpreted as not giving 100% effort when he really is, understand that he obviously continued to work in that his rebounds and asists remained/increased at levels higher than most guards. Most guys who give up keep shooting/scoring but give up playing D and rebouding. TL did not. I'm just trying to analyze the situation b/c TL has so much talent, played so many minutes, did so many good things but just stopped scoring. Also understand that many have thoughts and insights but probably just don't want to share them in this public format.

[slufanskip]

True, but does 2 extra assists/game indicate that TL was playing a different role or that the guy who received his pass simply made 2 more shots? Just when I am ready to say that TL started looking to pass first and shoot second, I am reminded of his awesome drive to tie the game against LaSalle in the A10 tourney. W/o that play, KM doesn't have the opportunity to win the game with his last second shot.

Again, not bashing TL. I also understand his style of play can be misinterpreted as not giving 100% effort when he really is, understand that he obviously continued to work in that his rebounds and asists remained/increased at levels higher than most guards. Most guys who give up keep shooting/scoring but give up playing D and rebouding. TL did not. I'm just trying to analyze the situation b/c TL has so much talent, played so many minutes, did so many good things but just stopped scoring. Also understand that many have thoughts and insights but probably just don't want to share them in this public format.

I don't think you double your assists by them just making more shots. Remember at the same time KM's asst's went down 25%, Tommie's shots went down by 33% and KM's shots go up by 25%. There roles clearly changed, whether by design or one of them just adjusting their game and the other reacting to it .... I don't know, but their roles did change.

[billiken_roy]

I don't think you double your assists by them just making more shots. Remember at the same time KM's asst's went down 25%, Tommie's shots went down by 33% and KM's shots go up by 25%. There roles clearly changed, whether by design or one of them just adjusting their game and the other reacting to it .... I don't know, but their roles did change.

skip we havent agreed a lot on billikens lately but i am buying what your thoughts are pretty much all the way. i agree a lot of what we saw from tommie the last two years was by design. which is what jalejarr basically said as well.

[BillikensFan4life]

I don't disagree 100%. And I agree not shaking RM's hand was in poor taste and telling. Imo your assumption that passing the ball off makes him less of a player is wrong. In my mind we became a better team when KM and TL both began to take on different roles and that is the goal. Could we have been even better had TL assumed more of a playmaking role and scored more ... yes.

what people dont realize is RM's offense is not a offense for Tommy. Tommy needs space to drive to the rim thats his strength, his jump shot is his weakness. the coaches call the plays and some some reason Tommy didnt have many called for him. KM was great but he took 20 or more shots, everyone has to be involved

[GOSLU68]

what people dont realize is RM's offense is not a offense for Tommy. Tommy needs space to drive to the rim thats his strength, his jump shot is his weakness. the coaches call the plays and some some reason Tommy didnt have many called for him. KM was great but he took 20 or more shots, everyone has to be involved

KM inbounds the ball to KM; KM shoots, KM rebounds, KM drives to the basket, KM shoots the trey, I am hoping we have a little more balance on next

year's team. I like that KM has more talent and less conscience than Dwayne Polk but I do not want a Larry Hughes' team where the other guys wait for Larry to take over.

[JaleJarr]

KM inbounds the ball to KM; KM shoots, KM rebounds, KM drives to the basket, KM shoots the trey, I am hoping we have a little more balance on next

year's team. I like that KM has more talent and less conscience than Dwayne Polk but I do not want a Larry Hughes' team where the other guys wait for Larry to take over.

It's going to be really tough on Kwamain next year. I expect defenses to cover him much the way they defended Tommie these past 2 seasons. Your going to see a lot hedging when Kwamain has the ball. I think teams will overplay him with the intent of getting the ball out of his hands. If he attempts to fight through it by overdribbling expect a lot of turnovers because the offense is not conducive to dribble penetration. Hopefully some of the returning guys will work this summer on their jumpshooting because those opportunities will be there. It's a must that Brian and Willie play the roles of studs, otherwise expect a long season.

[JaleJarr]

Clock_Tower

Instead, I'm frustrated with his scoring output these last 2 years, I have defended him at length these last 2 years,

No disrespect Clock but you're a like a traffic investigator who happens upon crash after crash involving the same driver and yet you never connect the operator to the disasters. When you do connect the two you find someway to mitigate or absolve him from the crash.

I had thought he had accepted RM and his peculiar and, at times, overbearing personality and was giving maximum effort. When TL/family decided to make their protest statement by not shaking RM's hand.

I didn't make the game so I don't know if this was something that was planned or not. What I do know is that the benefits of having a closed practice is that you get to say and do pretty much what you want to say and do without being held accountable. Things such as offering to assist a senior player to transfer well into the season or vile comments about your lineage. Majerus has a well documented history so this should come as no surprise to anyone. Conversely what happened that night should come as no surprise.

[lefty]

Clock_Tower

Instead, I'm frustrated with his scoring output these last 2 years, I have defended him at length these last 2 years,

No disrespect Clock but you're a like a traffic investigator who happens upon crash after crash involving the same driver and yet you never connect the operator to the disasters. When you do connect the two you find someway to mitigate or absolve him from the crash.

I had thought he had accepted RM and his peculiar and, at times, overbearing personality and was giving maximum effort. When TL/family decided to make their protest statement by not shaking RM's hand.

I didn't make the game so I don't know if this was something that was planned or not. What I do know is that the benefits of having a closed practice is that you get to say and do pretty much what you want to say and do without being held accountable. Things such as offering to assist a senior player to transfer well into the season or vile comments about your lineage. Majerus has a well documented history so this should come as no surprise to anyone. Conversely what happened that night should come as no surprise.

I always thought that, when Mike Anderson came to MU, Tommie would heve thrived there. On a related note, in Gordon's column about conference tournaments and Majerus, he nailed Majerus on the academics issue. Why do you run kids off enmasse making them start over and miss out on that vaunted SLU education if it's academics first?

[Clock_Tower]

Clock_Tower

Instead, I'm frustrated with his scoring output these last 2 years, I have defended him at length these last 2 years,

No disrespect Clock but you're a like a traffic investigator who happens upon crash after crash involving the same driver and yet you never connect the operator to the disasters. When you do connect the two you find someway to mitigate or absolve him from the crash.

I had thought he had accepted RM and his peculiar and, at times, overbearing personality and was giving maximum effort. When TL/family decided to make their protest statement by not shaking RM's hand.

I didn't make the game so I don't know if this was something that was planned or not. What I do know is that the benefits of having a closed practice is that you get to say and do pretty much what you want to say and do without being held accountable. Things such as offering to assist a senior player to transfer well into the season or vile comments about your lineage. Majerus has a well documented history so this should come as no surprise to anyone. Conversely what happened that night should come as no surprise.

Jarr. If you have details and/or want to share your insight, please do so. Unless you are a player or coach, what makes you such an insider? My guess is that you either family/friends to TL. If I am wrong, correct me.

In any event, this traffic investigator saw 7 Freshmen come to the program, 1 decide to leave for more playing time and possible conflict with RM, the next 5 give it all they have for RM and improve as the year went on and the 7th, by all accounts, thrive in practice during his redshirt year. 6 out of 7 of his own recruits is pretty good to me. No way do I believe that TL alone had problems with RM. The difference, though, is that these 5 freshman have responded positively to RM and his tactics whereas TL has let it affect his performance on the court.

Without personally knowing RM, I doubt there are many issues (politics, religion...) that he and I would agree upon. On many prior posts, I have said that he is not the ideal role model for all young NCAA coaches. As to basketball, though, he is a HOF coach with not only controversy but also proven success. Maybe you don't like him and maybe you wish he were not our coach. The fact of the matter is, though, is that he is our coach and I support him. RM, call him an 800 lb elephant/gorilla or whatever. That is your right. It is also my right to support the coach and express an opinion even if I am not an insider.

Just to be clear, I am a SLU Billiken fan first and a fan of any given player a distant second. My first loyalties are to the program and its head coach. The program is bigger than any one player and if TL disliked RM that much, IMO then he should have left - 2 years ago, after last year or 1/2 way thru this year. Sounds to me, you are a TL fan first and foremost and a Billiken fan second. That may be the difference between us.

Next year when someone else leaves the program (and it's almost a certainty if 1 or 2 of next year's freshmen beat out one (or more) of next year's Sophomores and the Sophomore sulks and chooses not to remain on team where he will sit the bench behind this/these younger guys for the 3 years OR 1 or 2 of next year's Freshmen don't compete well with next year's other Freshmen and/or Sophomores and want to leave for more playing time), we will hear the same whining and complaining about RM.... what a terrible guy he is, why would anyone want to play for him.... and yet I can assure you that RM will then have 10 guys lined up take that guy's place. Also, when the team is winning down the stretch next year, and certainly winning the year after next, SLU and RM will be basking in the glory and success and his treatment of TL and last year's 4 guys he cut a distant memory. Is this fair? No, but much in life is not fair either.

[GOSLU68]

Jarr. If you have details and/or want to share your insight, please do so. Unless you are a player or coach, what makes you such an insider? My guess is that you either family/friends to TL. If I am wrong, correct me.

In any event, this traffic investigator saw 7 Freshmen come to the program, 1 decide to leave for more playing time and possible conflict with RM, the next 5 give it all they have for RM and improve as the year went on and the 7th, by all accounts, thrive in practice during his redshirt year. 6 out of 7 of his own recruits is pretty good to me. No way do I believe that TL alone had problems with RM. The difference, though, is that these 5 freshman have responded positively to RM and his tactics whereas TL has let it affect his performance on the court.

Without personally knowing RM, I doubt there are many issues (politics, religion...) that he and I would agree upon. On many prior posts, I have said that he is not the ideal role model for all young NCAA coaches. As to basketball, though, he is a HOF coach with not only controversy but also proven success. Maybe you don't like him and maybe you wish he were not our coach. The fact of the matter is, though, is that he is our coach and I support him. RM, call him an 800 lb elephant/gorilla or whatever. That is your right. It is also my right to support the coach and express an opinion even if I am not an insider.

Just to be clear, I am a SLU Billiken fan first and a fan of any given player a distant second. My first loyalties are to the program and its head coach. The program is bigger than any one player and if TL disliked RM that much, IMO then he should have left - 2 years ago, after last year or 1/2 way thru this year. Sounds to me, you are a TL fan first and foremost and a Billiken fan second. That may be the difference between us.

And it could be TL played as well as he could and that was all there was. The defence in the A10 certainly shut him down. Just like we all watched Monroe Douglas shake and bake for 4 years-well some teams figured out he was only going to go in one direction and they shut him down in his senior year and Roland Gray overtook him as the all time leading scorer. KL never quit no matter how many times he hit the floor. TL was a great

Billiken and if we saw the best he had that is okay.

Next year when someone else leaves the program (and it's almost a certainty if 1 or 2 of next year's freshmen beat out one (or more) of next year's Sophomores and the Sophomore sulks and chooses not to remain on team where he will sit the bench behind this/these younger guys for the 3 years OR 1 or 2 of next year's Freshmen don't compete well with next year's other Freshmen and/or Sophomores and want to leave for more playing time), we will hear the same whining and complaining about RM.... what a terrible guy he is, why would anyone want to play for him.... and yet I can assure you that RM will then have 10 guys lined up take that guy's place. Also, when the team is winning down the stretch next year, and certainly winning the year after next, SLU and RM will be basking in the glory and success and his treatment of TL and last year's 4 guys he cut a distant memory. Is this fair? No, but much in life is not fair either.

[billiken_roy]

Next year when someone else leaves the program (and it's almost a certainty if 1 or 2 of next year's freshmen beat out one (or more) of next year's Sophomores and the Sophomore sulks and chooses not to remain on team where he will sit the bench behind this/these younger guys for the 3 years OR 1 or 2 of next year's Freshmen don't compete well with next year's other Freshmen and/or Sophomores and want to leave for more playing time), we will hear the same whining and complaining about RM.... what a terrible guy he is, why would anyone want to play for him.... and yet I can assure you that RM will then have 10 guys lined up take that guy's place.

and you condone that. i like you clock. but for the life of me, i cant see how anyone can condone that practice. and before anyone gives the "hey that's the way it is in bigtime basketball". there are plenty of programs that wouldnt do that AND still win. i wish we would strive to be one of those programs. if that means it would take rickma 4 years instead of three to reach the promised land so be it. we've waited this long.

[Band Man]

and you condone that. i like you clock. but for the life of me, i cant see how anyone can condone that practice. and before anyone gives the "hey that's the way it is in bigtime basketball". there are plenty of programs that wouldnt do that AND still win. i wish we would strive to be one of those programs. if that means it would take rickma 4 years instead of three to reach the promised land so be it. we've waited this long.

Roy, you are essentially arguing that once RM has a player at a certain position that he should no longer recruit players at that position. It is the coach's job to win. If there is somebody out there that will improve this team at any position on the floor and immediately become an impact starter you cannot logically say that he should not recruit that guy just because somebody's feelings might get hurt when their playing time decreases. I mean honestly, under your premise if Luke Meyer were still around, you would argue that it would be wrong for RM to recruit a guy like WR or JS or CE to improve at the 3/4 because it might take away Luke Meyer's playing time. That is absolutely ridiculous. With that sort of recruiting the program would never improve and would always stagnate at the level of its current roster.

Also, In the scenario set out by Clock, it wouldn't be Majerus' doing that the player leaves. It would be the choice of that player to hopefully go to a LESSER program where there won't be players better than him at that position. I can't fault a player for leaving in search of more playing time, but you cannot possibly fault RM either.