MVC shake-up article

[SLUDrew]

I, for one, have grown extremely weary of the "why doesn't SLU join the Valley" discussions that regularly pop-up on message boards and sports call-in shows. As the conference stands right now, SLU has ZERO in common with the insitutions in the Valley and, in my opinion, would be a worse fit there than they are in the A-10.

However, the article of this article makes some interesting proposistions. Drop some Valley schools that either don't have or are unwilling to spend the resources necessary to improve their programs and and some that do.

We know some at Xavier and Dayton are frustrated with the A-10 and aren't that much better of a geographical fir than SLU. I am sure they would also like to play in a conference where there is a top-to-bottom commitment to basketball.

I realize this is all pie in the sky stuff, but as opposed to waiting for the BE break-up, I would jump at the opportunity to join a conference made up of SLU, Dayton, X, Creighton, Butler, Oral Roberts, SIU, MO State, WSU, Ill State and a couple others.

http://www.kansas.com/252/story/721889.html

[billiken_roy]

I, for one, have grown extremely weary of the "why doesn't SLU join the Valley" discussions that regularly pop-up on message boards and sports call-in shows. As the conference stands right now, SLU has ZERO in common with the insitutions in the Valley and, in my opinion, would be a worse fit there than they are in the A-10.

However, the article of this article makes some interesting proposistions. Drop some Valley schools that either don't have or are unwilling to spend the resources necessary to improve their programs and and some that do.

We know some at Xavier and Dayton are frustrated with the A-10 and aren't that much better of a geographical fir than SLU. I am sure they would also like to play in a conference where there is a top-to-bottom commitment to basketball.

I realize this is all pie in the sky stuff, but as opposed to waiting for the BE break-up, I would jump at the opportunity to join a conference made up of SLU, Dayton, X, Creighton, Butler, Oral Roberts, SIU, MO State, WSU, Ill State and a couple others.

http://www.kansas.com/252/story/721889.html

i am all for partnering with dayton and xaiver in whatever we do. the most important thing to remember is that the three schools are far more powerful as a like thinking trio than individually. even xaiver will only better whatever they do if they stay with us and dayton.

[moytoy12]

I, for one, have grown extremely weary of the "why doesn't SLU join the Valley" discussions that regularly pop-up on message boards and sports call-in shows. As the conference stands right now, SLU has ZERO in common with the insitutions in the Valley and, in my opinion, would be a worse fit there than they are in the A-10.

However, the article of this article makes some interesting proposistions. Drop some Valley schools that either don't have or are unwilling to spend the resources necessary to improve their programs and and some that do.

We know some at Xavier and Dayton are frustrated with the A-10 and aren't that much better of a geographical fir than SLU. I am sure they would also like to play in a conference where there is a top-to-bottom commitment to basketball.

I realize this is all pie in the sky stuff, but as opposed to waiting for the BE break-up, I would jump at the opportunity to join a conference made up of SLU, Dayton, X, Creighton, Butler, Oral Roberts, SIU, MO State, WSU, Ill State and a couple others.

http://www.kansas.com/252/story/721889.html

Agreed. That'd be a solid little conference there.

[satrap]

I, for one, have grown extremely weary of the "why doesn't SLU join the Valley" discussions that regularly pop-up on message boards and sports call-in shows. As the conference stands right now, SLU has ZERO in common with the insitutions in the Valley and, in my opinion, would be a worse fit there than they are in the A-10.

However, the article of this article makes some interesting proposistions. Drop some Valley schools that either don't have or are unwilling to spend the resources necessary to improve their programs and and some that do.

We know some at Xavier and Dayton are frustrated with the A-10 and aren't that much better of a geographical fir than SLU. I am sure they would also like to play in a conference where there is a top-to-bottom commitment to basketball.

I realize this is all pie in the sky stuff, but as opposed to waiting for the BE break-up, I would jump at the opportunity to join a conference made up of SLU, Dayton, X, Creighton, Butler, Oral Roberts, SIU, MO State, WSU, Ill State and a couple others.

http://www.kansas.com/252/story/721889.html

I think it was a good article in the sense that it's provocative, but a weaker one in the sense that it's insulting as hell to a huge number of fans, athletes, and adminstrators. First of all, a conference should NEVER expel a member who wishes to be a part of the fun; this isn't a Darwinian contest- it's ostensibly a cohesive collection/collective in which ALL members add something, if not equally (i.e. Fordham in our league). The MVC is every bit as good as it was in any year, whether the on court success says so or not. Conference success is measured in more than just wins and losses.

Your point about SLU and the MVC is right on, and people have never admitted it: SLU is just not a great cultural fit (although Creighton is a similar school). I personally think the A10 is a good, athletic, well coached conference and am glad we are part of it, even though it is a conference that is geographically goofy.

[moytoy12]

First of all, a conference should NEVER expel a member who wishes to be a part of the fun; this isn't a Darwinian contest- it's ostensibly a cohesive collection/collective in which ALL members add something, if not equally (i.e. Fordham in our league).

It's also a business and a league has every right to expel a member that is not holding up its end of the bargain. Now, I don't know whether this applies to the MVC schools that were mentioned as I don't know too much about them.

[ARbilliken]

i am all for partnering with dayton and xaiver in whatever we do. the most important thing to remember is that the three schools are far more powerful as a like thinking trio than individually. even xaiver will only better whatever they do if they stay with us and dayton.

Interesting article--he definitely brings up some good points regarding the valley, but I just don't see this happening anytime soon. I agree with Roy, we need to stick with X and YouDee because they give us a challenge and we bring in good numbers when we play each other. Most conferences are going to have their "bad" schools though--it just happens. So in regard to the A-10, sure Fordham sucks, but what can you do. Do I think geographically it would make more sense-sure I do, but for now I'm pretty happy with the A-10 and how we are competing and it's a good fit until something better opens up.

[satrap]

It's also a business and a league has every right to expel a member that is not holding up its end of the bargain. Now, I don't know whether this applies to the MVC schools that were mentioned as I don't know too much about them.

I know, but come on: can you imagine that Evansville, Drake, InSU, and whoever else he mentioned aren't "holding up" their ends? It's more like there is more sex appeal with his other suggestions, which there is but is of no consequence.

[billiken_roy]

I think it was a good article in the sense that it's provocative, but a weaker one in the sense that it's insulting as hell to a huge number of fans, athletes, and adminstrators. First of all, a conference should NEVER expel a member who wishes to be a part of the fun; this isn't a Darwinian contest- it's ostensibly a cohesive collection/collective in which ALL members add something, if not equally (i.e. Fordham in our league). The MVC is every bit as good as it was in any year, whether the on court success says so or not. Conference success is measured in more than just wins and losses.

Your point about SLU and the MVC is right on, and people have never admitted it: SLU is just not a great cultural fit (although Creighton is a similar school). I personally think the A10 is a good, athletic, well coached conference and am glad we are part of it, even though it is a conference that is geographically goofy.

i did some checking on "geographic goofiness" of some of the conferences. if anyone wants to do a mileage check between the far most schools in cusa, the big ten, the big 12, the pac 10, the sec, and the big east, i think you will be surprised to see it is very similar to slu and any school in the A-10. so my question is if it is so stupid for slu to be in the A-10 because of geography, then why is the pac 10 allowing arizona and washington to be in the same conference. or texas el paso and eastern carolina. or colorado and texas a+m. or louisville and uconn. or iowa and penn state. or arkansas and florida.

somebody has to be the outer region of every conference. just so happens slu is the western border program of the a-10.

[satrap]

i did some checking on "geographic goofiness" of some of the conferences. if anyone wants to do a mileage check between the far most schools in cusa, the big ten, the big 12, the pac 10, the sec, and the big east, i think you will be surprised to see it is very similar to slu and any school in the A-10. so my question is if it is so stupid for slu to be in the A-10 because of geography, then why is the pac 10 allowing arizona and washington to be in the same conference. or texas el paso and eastern carolina. or colorado and texas a+m. or louisville and uconn. or iowa and penn state. or arkansas and florida.

somebody has to be the outer region of every conference. just so happens slu is the western border program of the a-10.

Actually, you are confusing distance with geographic logic. In a huge country like ours, you are probably going to have some large distances between conference teams. But the Big 12, which ranges from Columbia to Boulder, or the Pac 10 from Seattle to Tempe, or the Big 10 from IA City to State College all have state to state continuity i.e. all the states border each other with no "skip" areas. This makes them at least somewhat sensible i.e. logical. I'm sure the MVC meets these criteria and I assume almost every other conference does. The A10 gap between MO and Ohio is pretty large.

I think, also, that better teams don't make a better conference; the Big East is huge, powerful, and no more compelling to me than any other conference and less than most.

[SLUDrew]

Interesting article--he definitely brings up some good points regarding the valley, but I just don't see this happening anytime soon. I agree with Roy, we need to stick with X and YouDee because they give us a challenge and we bring in good numbers when we play each other. Most conferences are going to have their "bad" schools though--it just happens. So in regard to the A-10, sure Fordham sucks, but what can you do. Do I think geographically it would make more sense-sure I do, but for now I'm pretty happy with the A-10 and how we are competing and it's a good fit until something better opens up.

Absolutely right that we do nothing without X and UD. I meant to say that in my post but neglected to do so. I have absolutey no interest in joining the Valley as it stands today.

The geography alone does not bother me about the A-10. Like Roy stated, there are multiple examples of members of the same conference being farther apart than SLU and the other members of the A-10.

I am just tired of the minor league approach of some of the programs and the conference as a whole. We are going to be lucky to see ANY of SLU's games in the A-10 tournament and only the final is televised nationally and it is on ESPN2 The Valley final is on CBS. The games leading up to the final are on Fox Sports Midwest. Let's be honest, Doug Elgin has noe far more for the Valley than any commissioner has done for the A-10 in years. I would love to have him as commissioner for any league that SLU is in.

[bauman]

i did some checking on "geographic goofiness" of some of the conferences. if anyone wants to do a mileage check between the far most schools in cusa, the big ten, the big 12, the pac 10, the sec, and the big east, i think you will be surprised to see it is very similar to slu and any school in the A-10. so my question is if it is so stupid for slu to be in the A-10 because of geography, then why is the pac 10 allowing arizona and washington to be in the same conference. or texas el paso and eastern carolina. or colorado and texas a+m. or louisville and uconn. or iowa and penn state. or arkansas and florida.

somebody has to be the outer region of every conference. just so happens slu is the western border program of the a-10.

Roy,

How dare you apply logic and facts to this "MVC issue"!!!!!!!!

Obviously, it would be easier for RM to recruit kids if he could promise them trips to Terre Haute/Evansville/Normal/Cedar Rapids (or Falls, wherever they are) and Carbondale instead of New York/Philly/Boston area and Charlotte, but he'll just have to settle for those little A-10 cities.

[lefty]

Absolutely right that we do nothing without X and UD. I meant to say that in my post but neglected to do so. I have absolutey no interest in joining the Valley as it stands today.

The geography alone does not bother me about the A-10. Like Roy stated, there are multiple examples of members of the same conference being farther apart than SLU and the other members of the A-10.

I am just tired of the minor league approach of some of the programs and the conference as a whole. We are going to be lucky to see ANY of SLU's games in the A-10 tournament and only the final is televised nationally and it is on ESPN2 The Valley final is on CBS. The games leading up to the final are on Fox Sports Midwest. Let's be honest, Doug Elgin has noe far more for the Valley than any commissioner has done for the A-10 in years. I would love to have him as commissioner for any league that SLU is in.

Are you sure Xavier and UD( particularly Xavier) are in this with you? Last re-structure you were confident that Depaul and Marquette were your buddies to the end. JMO but, next re-alignment, Xavier will be going alone to a big time conference (probably BE basketball teams).

[Bay Area Billiken]

Are you sure Xavier and UD( particularly Xavier) are in this with you? Last re-structure you were confident that Depaul and Marquette were your buddies to the end. JMO but, next re-alignment, Xavier will be going alone to a big time conference (probably BE basketball teams).

1. It would be good for SLU to try to be aligned with Xavier and Dayton. But it is correct, as proven by Marquette and DePaul, that ultimately each school will look out for its own interests. SLU has done the same thing in the past- leaving Xavier to join the Great Midwest, and leaving Dayton when C-USA was formed. However, I don't think SLU was driving the truck in either case. Cincinnati didn't want Xavier in the Great Midwest. And forces from other schools kept Dayton out of C-USA. SLU continued to play Dayton.

2. The premise of the article from Wichita is silly IMO.

Kick Northern Iowa, this year's #1 seed in the MVC, out of the MVC?

Kick Drake, last year's MVC Champ and a long time MVC member, out of the MVC?

Those two are not going to happen.

3. As for the obligatory digs at Fordham in this thread and others, note that U2 played at Fordham this morning. Thus, U2 played at a fellow A-10 school, a fellow Jesuit school. The relevance to basketball is this shows the power and potential of Fordham. Fordham was 18-12, 10-6 only 2 years ago. Fordham is aware of the current situation with its basketball program. Please give Fordham some time. Rome was not built in a day. There's a lot more I could say here, but suffice it to say that all these calls to kick Fordham out of the A-10 are very shortsighted, myopic, and provincial. And that comment from the current Fordham coach was not helpful either, really it was quite foolish IMO. Remember when Barney Fife pulled out the gun and shot himself in the foot?

[moytoy12]

Please give Fordham some time. Rome was not built in a day.

How much time do they need? How long have they been in the a-10 (i really don't know)? seems like they've had longer than a day to start building rome.

[SLUDrew]

1. It would be good for SLU to try to be aligned with Xavier and Dayton. But it is correct, as proven by Marquette and DePaul, that ultimately each school will look out for its own interests. SLU has done the same thing in the past- leaving Xavier to join the Great Midwest, and leaving Dayton when C-USA was formed. However, I don't think SLU was driving the truck in either case. Cincinnati didn't want Xavier in the Great Midwest. And forces from other schools kept Dayton out of C-USA. SLU continued to play Dayton.

2. The premise of the article from Wichita is silly IMO.

Kick Northern Iowa, this year's #1 seed in the MVC, out of the MVC?

Kick Drake, last year's MVC Champ and a long time MVC member, out of the MVC?

Those two are not going to happen.

3. As for the obligatory digs at Fordham in this thread and others, note that U2 played at Fordham this morning. Thus, U2 played at a fellow A-10 school, a fellow Jesuit school. The relevance to basketball is this shows the power and potential of Fordham. Fordham was 18-12, 10-6 only 2 years ago. Fordham is aware of the current situation with its basketball program. Please give Fordham some time. Rome was not built in a day. There's a lot more I could say here, but suffice it to say that all these calls to kick Fordham out of the A-10 are very shortsighted, myopic, and provincial. And that comment from the current Fordham coach was not helpful either, really it was quite foolish IMO. Remember when Barney Fife pulled out the gun and shot himself in the foot?

Rome was not built in a day but Fordham is playing in a 3,200 seat arena that was built in 1925. I do not mean this as a "dig." I believe Fordham has a football team so they could easily get a dig in on many of the other schools by chiding us for not having football. My point was that I would like to be in a conference with other Universities that are committed to improving their basketball prorams. In my opinion, Fordham is not trying to do that.

[Bay Area Billiken]

How much time do they need? How long have they been in the a-10 (i really don't know)? seems like they've had longer than a day to start building rome.

Fordham has been in the A-10 since 1995.

I know Fordham has not had much success since joining the A-10. Some of the Fordham alumni think Fordham would be better off back in the Patriot League or in the MAAC. But the school is bigger and has potential.

As I noted, Fordham was 18-12, 10-6 (and tied for 4th Place) just 2 years ago. Fordham was supposed to be good last season with a Senior dominated team, but that team, for whatever reason, did not play up to expectations. This year Fordham is playing freshmen (Jio Fontan) and a pretty good soph (Mike Moore). But Fordham doesn't have good bigs this year.

What Fordham needs first is a new facility. There have been various internet posts about plans, but there's been no announcement. But this is an especially difficult issue now in this bad economy.

[satrap]

As for the obligatory digs at Fordham in this thread and others, note that U2 played at Fordham this morning.

Is that right? Wow, fairly impressive, even though it has little to do with Fordham directly.

I would be proud for my children to go to Fordham and think it's a great school. Rose Hill Gym is an impressive edifice. But if we are talking about "weak" links (even though I don't really believe in the concept)........

[satrap]

Rose Hill Gym is an impressive edifice.

Ok, OK. Maybe not "impressive" for a gym. But I do so like limestone buildings, which all buildings should be....

[Bay Area Billiken]

Rome was not built in a day but Fordham is playing in a 3,200 seat arena that was built in 1925. I do not mean this as a "dig." I believe Fordham has a football team so they could easily get a dig in on many of the other schools by chiding us for not having football. My point was that I would like to be in a conference with other Universities that are committed to improving their basketball prorams. In my opinion, Fordham is not trying to do that.

It is frustrating. Look at this morning. There were all those Fordham students out there in the cold for the U2 concert. What great PR that was for Fordham. The Fordham President noted that U2 could have played at Columbia, could have played at Georgetown, could have played at Notre Dame, but was playing at Fordham.

I couldn't help but think, and I know, that at least some of those students would love to have a good basketball team to support. I've seen the support at Fordham football games.

The fans would be there if they had something for which to root.

There are 2 primary issues:

1. The Facility;

2. The Coach.

Fordham is caught in a Catch 22 re the Coach. If he gets dismissed, then what happens to all these recruits that Fordham has signed, and especially that Air Jamaica guy, the high school Junior, who's committed to Fordham? But man, if he stays, they need to get that guy some affect coaching. He whines and complains, then just sits down during the game. He looks like his shoes are two sizes too small. Negativity breeds more negativity.

[Postcard]

Roy,

How dare you apply logic and facts to this "MVC issue"!!!!!!!!

Obviously, it would be easier for RM to recruit kids if he could promise them trips to Terre Haute/Evansville/Normal/Cedar Rapids (or Falls, wherever they are) and Carbondale instead of New York/Philly/Boston area and Charlotte, but he'll just have to settle for those little A-10 cities.

Wait a second. I thought we wanted to kick out Fordham. But then we couldn't promise recruits those great trips to New York city. Because you know how important that is to a recruit. They have all that free time to go to the Met and MOMA. I wonder how KU suceeds in convincing kids to go to little ol Lawrence and make trips to Ames and Columbia, etc.

[satrap]

It is frustrating.

Are you a Fordham grad?

[St. Mary's Dragon]

I think Fordham could improve if they want to. They have one benefit SLU does not have. They are in the capital of the world NYC. If they could get some of the numerous local recruits and if they ever build a new gym they will imporve. I just don't seeing them replacing that gym, which is the oldest D1 gym still in use. Hopefully they will imporve because they are a similar school as Bay Area Bill said, catholic, jesuit, and don't forget urban.

[satrap]

They have all that free time to go to the Met and MOMA.

Free time would have nothing to do with their absence, but it's still a decent point.

I was listening to Rammer before the team left for Fordham a few weeks ago and they were staying well north of Fordham- I can't offhand remember were but it starts with a T, on the Hudson river. Anyway, you are right as far as it goes for the young athlete. If a young man is normal, he doesn't care much about visiting NY, at least as far as I remember my youth.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Are you a Fordham grad?

No, I'm a double SLU grad. But my son is a sophomore at Fordham. He was at the U2 concert today, which was less than a block from his dorm room.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Free time would have nothing to do with their absence, but it's still a decent point.

I was listening to Rammer before the team left for Fordham a few weeks ago and they were staying well north of Fordham- I can't offhand remember were but it starts with a T, on the Hudson river. Anyway, you are right as far as it goes for the young athlete. If a young man is normal, he doesn't care much about visiting NY, at least as far as I remember my youth.

Probaby Tarrytown- that's where the Fordham President told us to stay. It's about a 20 minute drive from the Fordham campus. Ironically, my first college roommate at SLU was from Tarrytown.