Scott Suggs

[Quality Is Job 1]

List for me, if you will, all the St. Louis area kids that waltzed straight out of high school and were major contributors at a BCS-level college basketball school? BCS would include the top five or six conferences like Big Twelve, Big East, Pac 10, Southeastern, Atlantic Coast, CUSA (before the break up) and even throw in there the A10 and the Missouri Valley.

Short of Larry Hughes, I can't think of many.

I'm not sure what you mean by "major contributor." Freshmen don't tend to dominate the way Larry Hughes did in BCS conferences, and if they do, they tend to be gone for the Association before they become sophomores. So I think a "major" contribution is regular playing time -- being a regular part of the rotation, perhaps starting. So, using my own criteria, I'm going to throw out some names: Chris Carrawell, Duke; David Lee, Florida; Robert Archibald, Illinois; Jahidi White, Georgetown; Loren Woods, Wake Forest. I'm sure they're debatable.

Now if you want to add upper mid-major conferences like the A-10 and the MVC, then the list explodes. Heck, Liddell and Lisch were beyond my "major contribution" criteria as freshmen as SLU joined the A-10.

[courtside]

List for me, if you will, all the St. Louis area kids that waltzed straight out of high school and were major contributors at a BCS-level college basketball school? BCS would include the top five or six conferences like Big Twelve, Big East, Pac 10, Southeastern, Atlantic Coast, CUSA (before the break up) and even throw in there the A10 and the Missouri Valley.

Short of Larry Hughes, I can't think of many.

Suggs will most likely be fine. If he stays, he'll get developed and he'll love it. If he goes, it probably just another misguided youth who had an overinflated opinion of himself and decided to listen to his entourage instead of those who develop players as a rule (coaches). If he wanted to come home, I think anyone would be insane not to accept him but I don't see that happening. Way too many times folks like Frank seem to get sucked in to this belief that all these kids are coming home for some reason or another. Sure, Jamal Johnson did it and so did Evan Pedersen and Jim Roder and Ted Mimlitz and Pee Wee Lenard. Of those five, only two were successes, as far as I'm concerned. So in taking the kid, you have maybe less then a 50% chance that he's worth anything. But its up to the coach and staff.

I don't think anyone passes up on a perceived talent like Suggs but I don't see him coming home at all. Pie in the Sky.

You could say this about a lot of other metros besides St. Louis too. I do agree with the general point that St. Louis is not a deep talent area annually for high major players in hoops, but it has its moments from time to time.

I believe the plethera of posters that want to see major results immediately from Freshman, simply mirrors today's society, which is now, now, now. And that's not how most players are developed in college basketball or really any other college sport.

[joe_davola]

If the reason you don't like MU is because it may hurt recruiting that's a joke. While you want to keep those local boys home I really doubt you would win with all local boys. Maybe once in a while but I doubt that happens often. You want the one or two that would help your team. RM can recruit anywhere that's one reason he was a good choice. To be a top 25 program SLU has to be able to recruit in more than just the Stl area.

Which is why I said in my original reply, "Not neccesary, but it certainly would help SLU's causes of deveoloping a top 25 program by keeping local talent in STL. "

Read my entire post before you reply. Makes you look stupid.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Hey guys first post. Just so you know I am an MU fan AND a Billiken fan so not here to flame just talk bball. Don't get to see any SLU games on TV here but I've been reading this forum for several years.

While I agree that none of the tiger frosh are dominating the BigXII who thought they would? They are making an impact and Suggs is seeing little if any playing time and all of the new guys at MU with the exception of Moore are seeing significant playing time. English is starting and Denmon has been 6th man off the bench often. Paul and Bowers are both seeing a lot more minutes than Suggs. So four out of five are playing more ball than Suggs.

I don't want to make this an MU post just stating the fact that if he had went to MU or SLU I'd have to think he'd be playing more and the statement about making an impact could be wrong I really feel MU have at least three frosh that have made an impact. English, Denmon then Bowers with Paul playing fairly solid at point. Moore was an is a project and had to lose a ton of weight which he has done. So unless you rate Suggs at Moore's level he very possibly could be seeing a lot of minutes at MU and making an impact in the BigXII

I apologize for the reception you've gotten from my Mizzou-hating billikens.com brethren. I'm one of very few Missouri fans that they respect. But if you've really been reading this forum for years, you should be able to understand why.

The Demetrious Johnson game has tended to bring in "national" recruits who will be attending Missouri, Illinois, and SLU (and DePaul), along with some other "national" recruits Johnson is able to get. Well, he used to be able to put together a higher caliber national team than he has lately. A couple of years ago, Mizzou recruit Justin Safford was the only BCS-conference-bound player. The rest were mid-major or below. Depending on the amount of talent on the national team, the game becomes a kind of loose barometer of the caliber of talent the St. Louis area produces in a given year. (I was rather put off that SLU recruit Willie Reed, from Kansas City, was assigned to the local team last year while Mizzou recruits from the same area, Marcus Denmon and Steve Moore, were assigned to the national team [as they should have been, but so should Reed].) Well, the local team was holding its own until the beginning of the fourth quarter, when the national team put an all Mizzou-recruit lineup on the floor. Besides the fact that they'd been practicing together at Mizzou Arena, it may have been the only time in the game that the local recruits were facing a squad of five BCS-bound players (I don't recall exactly). They focused their efforts on Suggs, and he was exposed. Again, I thought the only local player able to stand up to them was Femi John.

All I'm saying is that, considering that John is redshirtting as a freshman at a non-BCS conference team and the five freshmen who dominated Suggs are contributing, but not dominating, in the Big XII, it's not a surprise to me that Suggs isn't ready to make an impact at Washington just yet. And, no, I don't think Suggs would be doing much at Missouri this year, either. Missouri has Tiller, Taylor, and Lawrence way ahead of Suggs, and English is a better shooter. Suggs might be able to contribute about as much as Miguel Paul at Mizzou this year, but that's not a lot, and -- given Missouri's style -- might be the equivalent of what he's doing at Washington. If he were at SLU this year, Suggs's role might be similar to what Cassity's role is or what Cotto's role was before he departed.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with Scott Suggs, but he isn't Larry Hughes, and he might not even be on the level of Tommie Liddell III.

Just talk basketball. Trying to defend yourself (i.e., your loyalties) only makes the wolves circle more ravenously.

[CO-billiken]

I realize for some reason there is nothing but MU bashing on here. That is why I haven't posted here. And for your information I was reading this board before the change to the new site.

You need to read the post I replied to. The post was about Suggs and MU was part of the subject I made and Intelligent reply with valid points and all I get is BS!!!! Why no replies on the subject which was Suggs playing time........

Again thanks for the welcome and glad to see you guys want to talk basketball. What a joke

Sorry in advance, but I completely agree with you bballfan. I am a huge mizzou and billiken fan and yes you can be both. In my opinion Suggs would for sure be getting more minutes at SLU (especially with the absence of cotto) but not neccessarily at Mizzou they are fairing pretty well at the guard position however Anderson does use alot of bodies so you never know. And by the way Mizzou's fresh are making a huge impact (both English and Denmon are players) both averaging around 8 or 9 a game. Just like Reed, Conklin and Mitchell are impact players at slu.

[eastsidejoe]

Sorry in advance, but I completely agree with you bballfan. I am a huge mizzou and billiken fan and yes you can be both. In my opinion Suggs would for sure be getting more minutes at SLU (especially with the absence of cotto) but not neccessarily at Mizzou they are fairing pretty well at the guard position however Anderson does use alot of bodies so you never know. And by the way Mizzou's fresh are making a huge impact (both English and Denmon are players) both averaging around 8 or 9 a game. Just like Reed, Conklin and Mitchell are impact players at slu.

at least you know the names of three of the freshmen at SLU. i'll give you that. however you seem quite familiar with Missouri statistics. what do you really know about the billikens since you are such a HUGE fan.

[bballfan2]

Man, they jumped on you like you know what! I must admit I lack the anti-Mizzou passion that some have; I actually root for them unless they are playing SLU, and I like Mike Anderson. However, if you read this forum all the time, HOW DO YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THE BILLIKEN FRESHMEN? You have to bring just a tiny bit of Billiken knowledge to Billikens.com, don't you?

Thanks for the reply and I think you misunderstood what I said about the freshmen. I said I didn't know ALL of their names not that I knew nothing about them. Truthfully it would be pointless for me to list them to prove something. It's not at all hard to look up the roster and act like I knew them all, which is what I said. We get no coverage here so it makes difficult to follow the team and all of the players since only two or three frosh play any minutes

I keep pointing out the fact that the post I replied to had NOTHING to do with SLU'S freshmen, so obviously they weren't mentioned in my post. It seems the main reply has been to prove that I'm a Tiger fan to which I've already stated I was. My son that lives in Marylin Heights and is a big fan of SLU, even tho I've been what I guess you call a casual fan I have been following it here online well before the new site was up and running. I thought I'd try and be a little more informed so I joined this forum which was a mistake and I'm not really sure it's worth the trouble.

While I've been as truthful as I can it seems most of the replies I've received have been accusations. Just as you have taken what I said and completely misread it, and to think your's was one of the better replies.

To be very truthful, I should say....... but I'm not going to so I will say I won't waste my time here again. I see no reason to come back and defend myself when I have nothing to defend.

Thicks thanks for your reply and opinion which I do respect. I'm sure I could enjoy discussing basketball with you. The last year has been pretty rough and I was looking for a way to help pass the time, after contracting RMSF this summer and still suffering side effects I was just diagnosed with skin cancer and am waiting for surgery in O'Fallon @ The Skin Surgery Center of Mo. I can honestly say all this did was raise my BP which is another subject I won't go into.

Again thanks for the warm welcome. You must be very proud.............

[billikenfan05]

Thanks for the welcome guys and yes I am a tiger fan and SLU fan the post was about Suggs, I used MU to make a valid point about Suggs and look at the replies. That is one reason I've never posted here before.

Maybe someone would like to make an intelligent reply to my post. Instead of the MUphobic replies.....

BTW I root for all Mo. teams why wouldn't you? MU and SLU are both instate schools I see no reason why you can't be a fan of both, I stated I was a tigerfan too so it's not like I'm trying to hide anything.

I also root for the Cards and the Royals, the Rams and the Chiefs is that wrong or unbelievable?

You can't root for Missouri-Columbia and be a billiken fan because the tigers are the Anti-Christ

[billiken_roy]

Thanks for the reply and I think you misunderstood what I said about the freshmen. I said I didn't know ALL of their names not that I knew nothing about them. Truthfully it would be pointless for me to list them to prove something. It's not at all hard to look up the roster and act like I knew them all, which is what I said. We get no coverage here so it makes difficult to follow the team and all of the players since only two or three frosh play any minutes

I keep pointing out the fact that the post I replied to had NOTHING to do with SLU'S freshmen, so obviously they weren't mentioned in my post. It seems the main reply has been to prove that I'm a Tiger fan to which I've already stated I was. My son that lives in Marylin Heights and is a big fan of SLU, even tho I've been what I guess you call a casual fan I have been following it here online well before the new site was up and running. I thought I'd try and be a little more informed so I joined this forum which was a mistake and I'm not really sure it's worth the trouble.

While I've been as truthful as I can it seems most of the replies I've received have been accusations. Just as you have taken what I said and completely misread it, and to think your's was one of the better replies.

To be very truthful, I should say....... but I'm not going to so I will say I won't waste my time here again. I see no reason to come back and defend myself when I have nothing to defend.

Thicks thanks for your reply and opinion which I do respect. I'm sure I could enjoy discussing basketball with you. The last year has been pretty rough and I was looking for a way to help pass the time, after contracting RMSF this summer and still suffering side effects I was just diagnosed with skin cancer and am waiting for surgery in O'Fallon @ The Skin Surgery Center of Mo. I can honestly say all this did was raise my BP which is another subject I won't go into.

Again thanks for the warm welcome. You must be very proud.............

bballfan2, originally you said, "I am an MU fan AND a Billiken fan". nothing was mentioned in that very first post about only being a casual fan of the billikens and one who didnt even know the names of our freshmen.

you even told us you have been reading our forum regularly.

but then you proceeded to tell us about the wonderful tiger freshmen and not another word about the slu players.

as others have already stated, if you truly were a fan of both and even if you were only a casual fan but a regularly reader here, you would have known the freshmen. and you definitely would have known the likely reception you got. we havent tried to hide our tiger dislike.

if you want a warm welcome, well then you need to talk about the billikens. otherwise you will be treated as any other tiger fan. and since the track record of the tiger faithful is not very good..........well let's just say to be honest, i thought you were treated about as good as a full blown tiger fan typically will get.

thicks is the example of a dual fan that approaches this board wearing his billiken blue. and thus he is treated as one of us. if you want the same, leave the tail at the tigerboard. but to expect most of us to welcome your tiger insight here with thanks and appreciation, i for one couldnt care less. i proudly admit i dont know the name or stat of a single tiger freshmen. when they come on tv, i switch the channel to a csi miami or a law and order rerun.

the next time i watch a complete tiger basketball game is when the chickpud tigers play the billikens.

[Postcard]

i was at the illinois and missouri games that you refer to and yes we did quite well in those games. i think we are in a position to compete at this point. the more unlikely that mizzou will play us. they have too much to lose. therefore they don't want to have to deal with that. it doesn't really matter who the coaches are.

What do they have to lose? I can't remember the last time a local recruit had Mizzou and SLU as his final two teams. Perhaps others can remind me of a recent recruit that one of those team lost ot the other.

[billiken_roy]

What do they have to lose? I can't remember the last time a local recruit had Mizzou and SLU as his final two teams. Perhaps others can remind me of a recent recruit that one of those team lost ot the other.

i agree with postcard. there is no reason they dont play. in fact passing up the huge payday that an annual series between slu and mi$$ouri would yield is almost criminal. especially since mi$$ouri is subsidized by the state govt. one would think passing that payday for another game in december with coppin state would be grounds to lose state funds.

[eastsidejoe]

i agree with postcard. there is no reason they dont play. in fact passing up the huge payday that an annual series between slu and mi$$ouri would yield is almost criminal. especially since mi$$ouri is subsidized by the state govt. one would think passing that payday for another game in december with coppin state would be grounds to lose state funds.

they think their program is better, their team is better, their cheerleaders are better, their campus is better and on and on and on. Didn't you know that everything evolves around the tiger tail twisters?

[Postcard]

they think their program is better, their team is better, their cheerleaders are better, their campus is better and on and on and on. Didn't you know that everything evolves around the tiger tail twisters?

I think most fans feel the same way about their programs. I don't think Mizzou fans are any different than the rest.

[eastsidejoe]

I think most fans feel the same way about their programs. I don't think Mizzou fans are any different than the rest.

i respectfully disagree

[slufanskip]

I think most fans feel the same way about their programs. I don't think Mizzou fans are any different than the rest.

I agree, I think most fans see their teams through rose colored glasses. I'm guilty

[CO-billiken]

at least you know the names of three of the freshmen at SLU. i'll give you that. however you seem quite familiar with Missouri statistics. what do you really know about the billikens since you are such a HUGE fan.

I watch every game that is available(usually on channelsurfing.net) and look to this forum before EVERY game to see if thier is a link to the game. I go to school in out of state but when I came back home I went to three billiken games.

[eastsidejoe]

I agree, I think most fans see their teams through rose colored glasses. I'm guilty

i agree about most programs, but when it comes to Slu/mizzou there is an added edge of superiority as far as mu is concerned. maybe i'm wrong. they won't play us because they don't want us to have any recognition, it has nothing to do with recruiting imo. i also wear rose colored glasses, but am not afraid to see things as they truly are at times.

daniel

[Postcard]

i agree about most programs, but when it comes to Slu/mizzou there is an added edge of superiority as far as mu is concerned. maybe i'm wrong. they won't play us because they don't want us to have any recognition, it has nothing to do with recruiting imo. i also wear rose colored glasses, but am not afraid to see things as they truly are at times.

daniel

Why do they care if SLU gets recognition? Like we agreed, they rarely recruit the same players so what "recognition" are they cheating SLU out of? I think you're reading a little too much into both programs.

[eastsidejoe]

I watch every game that is available(usually on channelsurfing.net) and look to this forum before EVERY game to see if thier is a link to the game. I go to school in out of state but when I came back home I went to three billiken games.

hey, i'm happy you are a billiken fan!!

[eastsidejoe]

Why do they care if SLU gets recognition? Like we agreed, they rarely recruit the same players so what "recognition" are they cheating SLU out of? I think you're reading a little too much into both programs.

then why won't they play us? can't fit us into their schedule?

[Postcard]

then why won't they play us? can't fit us into their schedule?

They already play one of their biggest games of the year in St. Louis already. Most BCS teams would rather book the easy wins for their non conference schedule as opposed to a mid major team that might be able to bite them. I'm guessing they feel like they don't need to schedule SLU. Why does SLU need/want to play Mizzou so bad. I don't get it.

[moytoy12]

They already play one of their biggest games of the year in St. Louis already. Most BCS teams would rather book the easy wins for their non conference schedule as opposed to a mid major team that might be able to bite them. I'm guessing they feel like they don't need to schedule SLU. Why does SLU need/want to play Mizzou so bad. I don't get it.

You just pointed out the reason. A non-BCS team always wants a BCS scalp and a BCS team doesn't want a non-BCS loss. Also, SLU gains more credibility from local recruits if they are thought of as the top dog in the region. This isn't rocket science.

[Postcard]

You just pointed out the reason. A non-BCS team always wants a BCS scalp and a BCS team doesn't want a non-BCS loss. Also, SLU gains more credibility from local recruits if they are thought of as the top dog in the region. This isn't rocket science.

I guess Eastsidejoe should take this as his answer. Mizzou doesn't need SLU. SLU needs Mizzou. That's why they don't play each other.

[CO-billiken]

They already play one of their biggest games of the year in St. Louis already. Most BCS teams would rather book the easy wins for their non conference schedule as opposed to a mid major team that might be able to bite them. I'm guessing they feel like they don't need to schedule SLU. Why does SLU need/want to play Mizzou so bad. I don't get it.

Because if that game gets scheduled and SLU wins it is a great win for SLU. Also I think when this class is in its Junior year Mizzou is going to want nothing to do with this team.

[billiken_roy]

postcaed we should play because we are geographical rivals just like we are also with siu, missouri state, semo, eastern illinois, western illinois and illinois. if it was up to me those would all be annual non conference games.

but again, doesnt the fact that this game is a guaranteed sell out at any arena in town make it a financial windfall? why pass that up. if for no other reason, do it for the cash.