Tonka Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 VanillaGorilla, you say Quin is the man? What are you basing that off of? I can appreciate your support of your Coach, but let's not be unrealistic. I would agree, I would love to say that the Billikens made the tourney 5 years in a row. I really would. But, to say someone is the "man" to me would mean more than that. I think Mizzou is used to equating their Coaches as deities, but that also puzzles me. I guess it could be argued that it is relative, but what personally do you define as success? Is making the tournament a success? Or is making it to the final game of the National Championship a success? I don't know what your thoughts on that are, you would have to tell me. I think in general making the tournament is definitely a decent year, but shouldn't that be expected of some teams each and every year? It seems to me that most Mizzou fans consider their basketball program as a top notch program, so I would think the bar would be raised higher in defining success. If you were Creighton or Butler and you made the tournament five years in a row, I would say that is pretty successful. In fact, I would say that for a lot of teams. If you talk to the basketball elite, they expect tournament appearances consistently. Well, there seems to be inconsistent messages here. MU fans claim to be the high and mighty, but then thump their chests with tournament appearances. That doesn't seem right to me. But, how many other coaches have had their teams in the tournament 5 years in a row. I would venture to say it's more than just two or three. So, why is Quin the man? Yes, he made the tournament 5 years in a row, but other than last year's success, how far should he go into the tournament each year to define success? MU has never been a great tournament team. MU fans used to say that Norm was the "man" as well. And if you look at Norm's career wins and conference titles, you could say he was a good Coach. But, was he the "man". There was a dark cloud constantly hanging over the MU program during the Norm era and he never won a championship. Now, that in itself shouldn't take anything away from him. There are many Coaches in sports history who were awesome Coaches and never won the big game. But, he never even got to the big game. Again, there are many great coaches and great players who in their career never got to a championship game. So, again, define to me what makes someone the "man". Norm never got to the semifinals in I think it was 28 years. So, I'm not taking anything away from his career, but what expectations does MU have of Quin? Is he taking the same path of Norm, in that there will be a dark cloud over the program and there will be regular season success and tournament appearances yet never winning it all or making the Final Four? I would think the arrogant attitudes of the MU fans would demand just that from Quin. I guess time will tell in regards to where he will take this program, but can you really call him the "man" just yet. Look at last year's success, look at the recruits he's able to bring in. If anything, you could make an argument that he's anything bought the "man". He took his team far last year, has back two players who many were saying would be 1st round draft picks in last year's NBA draft, he's added even more talent to the team. The team is just loaded across the board. If anything, I would think Quin has made this MU regress. He may have killed AJ and Paulding's chances of being draft picks or good draft picks, he has brought bad attention and bad allegations against the team, he has lost a lot of fan support and is disliked by many MU faithful, and yet you say he is the "man". He absolutely does not get the most of his players, and perhaps has hurt the bright futures of several of his players. The future may prove different, but I think at this point, the comment about him being "the man" is absurd. Last comment, many MU faithful think Q is godlike even despite the poor decisions he has made in his career. When he was an assitant Coach at Duke, many claimed he was the number 1 coaching prospect among assistant coaches nationally. Can you tell me all the teams that pursued Quin aggressively? I don't remember there being all that many. It's kind of odd to me that somebody that "good" and highly regarded, wouldn't be the talk of college basketball to fill many vacancies, but I just don't remember that being the case. Correct me if I am wrong though. If you talk to the Seattle media and talk to people that have followed Quin through his life, they would tell you he was a posterchild for bad media attention. It's even been mentioned that he was known for being a coke addict back in his high school days. Were these just allegations, possibly. I am reluctant to even post that as the few MU faithful in the board that like to lurk around will call me on that and say that was nothing more than allegations, and therefore it doesn't matter. So, I am saying right now that is was just allegations. Regardless, you can't argue that this guy has a history of making bad decisions and has proven that again this year. Quin can recruit and I'm not going to take shots at how he got the recruits. Fact of the matter, is that he has landed some talented players. But, his coaching is mediocre at best, he brings bad attention to his program, and his team has been underachieving given the talent they have. I think you may want to hide that "Quin is the man" label in your pocket until it is actually warranted. Not taking shots at you, VG, just wanting to see where your head is at and where you get this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted February 29, 2004 Share Posted February 29, 2004 "I think Mizzou is used to equating their Coaches as deities, but that also puzzles me." To be fair, we all like to deify "uncle brad" as well. The stat i've seen as far as consecutive tourney appearances said that 17 teams have made the tournament every year for the past 5 years. Arizona has made it the most, going the past 19 years (i'm trying to remember as best i can, that might be a little off). I think that's the mark of a very succesful coach. It'd be easy to chalk it up to having talented players over coaching, but that only works to a point. There are plenty of teams with lots of talent that struggle. Some of these teams (Kansas and Michigan State, for instance) have plenty of talent to go with great floor coaches, they just struggle. I would call Brad Soderberg "the man" right now, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the first on this board to do so, yet he hasn't even made the Tourney with SLU. I don't think it's unfair to say that Quin Snyder is having incredible success at Mizzou, and compared to Norm's last few years at Mizzou it's not ridiculous to say that Quin is "the man" due to his success. Mizzou may not be an elite program (they sure haven't earned that moniker) but it looks like they're headed in the right direction. How do we measure coaching success if not by victories, recruiting, and NCAA tournament appearances? A rough count shows that he has 99 wins in his 5th year as Mizzou's coach. He's looking to make his 5th NCAA tournament in 5 years as a head coach. He's brought in big name recruits (Travon Bryant was a McDonald's AA, Rickey Paulding and AJ were top 100 guys, Linas Kleiza was rated as high as the 23rd best player in his class, and Jason Horton is a top 50 Point Guard to go with 3 other top 100 guys). Obviously the biggest concern with Quin Snyder is the apparent shadiness of the program as it stands. The program is under investigation, which is obviously not good. But the word looks as though Mizzou will not be found guilty of any major violations. And no, my source on the matter is not tigerboard. On a CBS halftime show, one of their analysts said that the NCAA investigation committee had moved the hearing to june, which he felt showed that no major violations were coming down. Obviously this doesn't mean that Quin Snyder is an angel, but if there are no major violations, why should that discount for his success as a coach? I know it sucks for bills fans to see Quin as anything but an incompetent coach who has exhibited a complete inability to lead a team to success. The fact of the matter is, though, that Quin has had quite a bit of success, averaging about 20 wins a year. Now, that being said, Billiken_roy may feel free to post a quick one-liner about how "pretty $nyder" gives cocaine to his players while Brad reads bible verses to his, but the fact of the matter is that that has not been shown to be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted February 29, 2004 Share Posted February 29, 2004 i dont think brad has ever read bible verses to the team at practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted February 29, 2004 Author Share Posted February 29, 2004 it's not hard for me to see him as anything but an incompetent Coach. I figured I'd get a response like I did from one of the MU faithful. Here's the thing though. You make a decent argument about why you think Quin is good, but I and many others (including MU fans) could argue otherwise at this very point in time. That being said, if you went on neutral ground including some very notable basketball media, they would tend to agree with my argument. I will give Quin his due (and have in the past) when I believe it is warranted, but at this point he is not "the man". As far as all Bills fans thinking Brad is a god. Well, that's not true. I love Brad and think he will eventually be "the man". He has proven a lot in his short time at SLU. I think he will prove even more in the future. I think he is a great person to lead this program and at this point, I truly wouldn't want anybody else. But, at this point in time, I personally call him a god or say he's "the man". I simply wouldn't at this point. Again, I think he will be, but he's not there yet. I know others on this board may disagree, but that's how I feel. You see, Cheesycow, it's not that hard to be objective if you really try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted February 29, 2004 Author Share Posted February 29, 2004 No, I don't think he has either, Roy. Didn't he part the Mississippi though to save on travel time heading over to watch Lisch play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted February 29, 2004 Share Posted February 29, 2004 But I think it's unfair to label a coach with a career win% of over .600 as "incompetent." I guess it all boils down to you and I having different opinions of what it takes to be "the man." You are of the ilk that thinks that to be "the man" you need to have rings and championships to show for it. I am of the opinion that you don't need that. Either way is really fine for me. I think that both Soderberg and Quin are excellent coaches on the whole. Brad gets more out of his talent than Quin does, but he doesn't do as good a job as Quin when it comes to acquiring that talent, all jokes about wal-mart aside. States should be so lucky to have two coaches like Soderberg and Snyder, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted February 29, 2004 Author Share Posted February 29, 2004 Did I say "incompetent"? I don't remember saying that about Norm. If I did, I didn't mean to. If I did, can you note that, because I do not recall using that word. Also, if you read my post right, I think I said there are many "great" coaches who haven't won a championship and there are "great" coaches who haven't even made it to the championship game. So, why are you doing that. I know I said what I just stated about great coaches and championships and I believe I never used the word "incompetent" as that was not my intention. If both of these are true, your reply has no substance to it Cheesy. How can you say we disagree when I didn't say what you just said I did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted February 29, 2004 Share Posted February 29, 2004 "it's not hard for me to see him as anything but an incompetent Coach" That sentence was convoluted, and I'm not sure if you meant to say that Quin was incompetent or not. Quin has a career winning percentage of over .600. I wasn't discussing Stormin Norman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 a very competent sleaze ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 In all fairness, yes i have clogged the board with many threads. But at this point I'm just going to go ahead and say that I think it is actually posts like the one above that add nothing to any sort of rational discussion that are a bigger waste of space. Why bother to even bump this thread to say something that has been said about 753 times already? With respect to Steve and Thicks, I am trying to choose more carefully the threads and posts that I respond to. I think a lot of people would get to read a lot less about Mizzou if others did the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken75 Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 I equate Snyder's skills as equal to Steve Lavin's at UCLA. Recruiting is such a key factor in being competitive and this type of coach excels at it. When I watch a Mizzou basketball game, the offense is based on the players success at shooting the 3 - they do an awful lot of lob plays, and whether AJ is able to handle the inside and then the question is can they deliver to him regularly. Mizzou is an extraordinarly talented team... they are playing well now... why now?? because injuries have forced Snyder to use an abbreviated bench and also play Conley. Linus getting hurt, Kroenke getting hurt, and the defection of Pulley has helped this squad become better "coached". I was wondering, what are all those "coats" with the clipboards doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 cheesycow was so sensitive when it came to Q-tip. Hey, Elsie, if you like a coach that steers your program into a "serious" NCAA investigation that's ok by me. You like a coach that posts a 15-10 record and is on the bubble with a team that started out #3 in the rankings, fine. You like a guy who couldn't coach the best paid players in college hoops to a victory, at home no less, over Belmont, to each their own I say. Just don't come over here telling us he's the next John Wooden. I'd say more like the next Jim Harrick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 harrick actually won a few conference titles and a national championship at his various coaching stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUTGR Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 I don't expect to win any fans for Norm Stewart on this board, but I think a few facts will help some of you understand why some of us MU fans think so highly of Norm. When Norm Stewart took over in 1967, he replaced Bob Vanatta, whose MU teams were a combined 42-80 in the previous five seasons. MU was a fine football school (believe it or not), but was nothing as a basketball school at that time. In his 32 years at MU, Norm went 634-333 for a winning percentage of 65%. This is not counting his 6 seasons at Northern Iowa. During this time at MU, Stewart won 8 big eight conference titles and 6 conference tournament titles. His lack of relative success in the tournament is well documented, but he did make the elite eight twice and as well as the sweet 16. Did he make Missouri a national power? No. I have heard Stewart say as much himself. Did he make MU a good regional power for many years - you bet he did. He placed MU on the map. Frankly, if it wasn't for Norm, a young hotshot like Quin Snyder never would have even considered the job. Did Norm decline his last few years? Yes. He probably should have stepped down a few years before he did, but he did have MU in the NCAA tournament his last year and I think they finished 2d in the big 12 that year. So he left things in pretty decent shape for his successor. Norm also landed us on probation one year. While I am not proud of that, if you read the NCAA's reports, as I have done, you essentially had a bunch of minor violations that added up to a lack of institutional control. It is really not accurate to portray his progam as being under a dark cloud for years. That might be your impression or perception, but it's really not supported by the facts. Finally, Norm was a Missouri guy. He was a star athlete at MU in basketball and baseball, and to this day he still bleeds black and gold. Loyalty still means something in certain parts of the country, and some parts of Missouri are fortunately still one of them. For a SLU fan wanting to know why some of us MU fans (it's certainly not all) think so highly of Norm, compare him to Charlie Spoonhour. Some SLU Fans (not B-Roy) still deify Charlie. Charlie was there what, 9 years? He certainly had a good run, but he didn't set the world on fire either. Of course, you will say that's apples and oranges because of what he had to work with. On the other hand, Norm didn't follow a Rich Grawer, who did a lot of the heavy lifting of building a program back to respectability, like Spoon had the opportunity to do. While the big 8 in those days was more of a football conference, Norm still had to compete against the likes of Iba at OSU, KU (always a basketball school) and KSU. And if Ekker(sp?), Grawer or Spoon won 8 conference titles and 6 conference championship banners (regardless of which conference) in your gym, you'd rightfully think pretty highly of that person as well. I don't want Norm to come back, but when I look back at his tenure, I'm satisfied he did a very good job for a very long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerluke Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 75, i think you're mistaken on a couple of counts here . . . (1) that quin can't coach their offense (if you ask me it's the total lack of team defense that kills mizzou). the offense comes down to turnovers, not just the three. also aj can dominate but hasn't been as consistent as expected, especially late in the game earlier in the year. plus conley and gardner took some time to find themselves. (2) the only player i feel is better out is pulley who clearly was not the answer at point. true the smaller rotation has helped, but this is mainly because it gives some consistency and chemistry to the lineup, but all in all the tigers are better with kroenke's hustle and linus' talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 MUTGR - I appreciate the post. When you read my original post I clearly state that I think Norm did a good job, as you said yourself. My whole point in posting though was there are more fans than not who deify Norm. Given this based purely on my interaction with MU fans, which has a broad base through the years. I do think Norm did a good job and one could certainly argue he did a great job. I just wondered what MU fans defined as "great" or what Norm did to make so many fans deify him. I thank you for providing the stats. While the stats speak to his success, you could also argue the other way as well. In 32 years, two elite eights. Again, what do these MU fans that speak of him as a deity, base that off of. You are right, he resurrected the program, so a big argument could be made in the beginning. I would just think there would be even more on his resume to be referring to him as godlike. Just my opinion though. I'd be curious to know how many tournament appearances Norm made in those 32 years. If you have that stat and could post it, I would greatly appreciate it. Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 The MU athletic website has him going to 16 NCAA tournaments. His peak was definitely 76-95, where he made it to 15 in 19 years. He took a while to get to his first, and he tailed off towards the end. Definitely not Coach K, but someone to be proud of, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 point out where this happened: "Just don't come over here telling us he's the next John Wooden." I've never made any threads dedicated to Quin Snyder, nor have I ever bragged about him. Tonka asked a seemingly reasonable question about the mindset of tigers fans in regards to Quin, and I answered to the best of my ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Rich Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 By many accounts he had the charm and social grace of a pubic louse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schasz Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 He was a class A No.1 JERK in my book and I had several guys who palyed for him confirm it...some of them were starters too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 You sound like Bill Laurie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Rich Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 If Norm treated him like dog shiite at some point in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesycow Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Apparently Norm benched a relative or friend of him at one point (i don't really know the details) and Bill's held a grudge ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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